Illegal long pips are actually very fun to play against.

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I played against JamesZ favorite family of rubbers.... Korean made (I didn't know Korean makes them too) illegal long pips.

Basically a short pimple width, that is super long and sticks/grips on the ball like inverted.
My heavy, fast, low arc, FH top spin goes into the opponent, and with a light block from him goes like drop-shot short. 3 bounce some times.
In comparison, his Tibhar Grass D tecs would shoot the ball long for me to continue to loop - with ease.
The drop shot is unnormal, and the amount of under spin is unnormal too.

So, yesterday, it took me 5 games to beat him, won the first two games, and just lost my steam (I'm getting old too lol). 3rd game was 13-15 or something like that, 4th game I was dead tired and loss quite a large range, and 5th game I went crazy mode and tried to be young again....I did end up winning, and told him we should do it again. Its so fun to be honest. I guess I really enjoyed the challenge (maybe JamesZ stirred some of that in me haha)

And for the record - I focused on attacking his underspin balls - I probably chop/push the ball back less than 10% or 20% of the time. I wanted to prove to my self that my FH and BH top spin can cope with illegal long pips, or when the ball is short, was to go into the table to drive or flick the ball with my penholder FH, and sure it still works like how it used to.

Just that there is terrible side affects.....today my body is aching terribly lol.
I guess I am no longer young any more.

 

[Jslick89]

I played against JamesZ favorite family of rubbers.... Korean made (I didn't know Korean makes them too) illegal long pips.

Basically a short pimple width, that is super long and sticks on the ball like inverted.
My heavy, fast, low arc, FH top spin goes into the opponent, and with a light block from him goes like drop-shot short. 3 bounce some times.
In comparison, his Tibhar Grass D tecs would shoot the ball long for me to continue to loop - with ease.
The drop shot is unnormal, and the amount of under spin is unnormal too.

So, yesterday, it took me 5 games to beat him, won the first two games, and just lost my steam (I'm getting old too lol). 3rd game was 13-15 or something like that, 4th game I was dead tired and loss quite a large range, and 5th game I went crazy mode and tried to be young again....I did end up winning, and told him we should do it again. Its so fun to be honest. I guess I really enjoyed the challenge (maybe JamesZ stirred some of that in me haha)

And for the record - I focused on attacking his underspin balls - I probably chop/push the ball back less than 10% or 20% of the time. I wanted to prove to my self that my FH and BH top spin can cope with illegal long pips, or when the ball is short, was to go into the table to drive or flick the ball with my penholder FH, and sure it still works like how it used to.

Just that there is terrible side affects.....today my body is aching terribly lol.
I guess I am no longer young any more.

View attachment 25719


View attachment 25720

More pimply than a teenager eating pizza and drinking mountain dew....wow!

 

[Gtsnake]

I admire you for your tenacity. I wouldn't have the patience to keep grinding it out.

How come the rubber has an ITTF logo if it's illegal? However it doesn't have the certification number. So they try to sell it as legal just to put a fake ITTF logo. lol

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I admire you for your tenacity. I wouldn't have the patience to keep grinding it out.

How come the rubber has an ITTF logo if it's illegal? However it doesn't have the certification number. So they try to sell it as legal just to put a fake ITTF logo. lol

well, I do know there are ITTF logos printed on "illegally" in the "black market side" of table tennis.
Not just long pimples, but inverted rubbers I haven't heard of that has ITTF logos (which 100% is not ITTF approved), and is not funny like any illegal long pips. Just regular rubber with ITTF logo (same like what is in the OP photo)

So, Logo actually means nothing I guess. The new registration number does.

I actually wondered, if these illegal company can actually put/print "legal rubbers" information on the bottom and if there is no racket control, the umpire might just allow illegal long pips to be played.
I mean, how many times will the umpire (who is not racket control) would search for the pip layout on ITTF to see if the number matches the actual products.

 

[blahness]

Yes, the illegal long pips can actually block loopkills back short and with heavy af underspin. Legal long pips usually can't keep it short.

Imo it's pretty unfair for the inverted player to put so much effort into the ball while the illegal long pips player can just stand there and block. In no other sport can you just sit there and block rather than trying to keep up. For eg in badminton if you don't have a basic powerful clear, you're just minced meat for whoever does since they'll just clear to your baseline, wait for your short ball and kill it.

 

[Gtsnake]

The could probably just print some fake registration number and no one would ever know unless they actually looked it up.

 

[t.t.s.t.a.r]

I was waiting for James Z's reply however I thought it would be a positive reply to Tony and not a massive heaping pile of sarcasm towards Blahness, however i find that i also disagree with Blahness.
Illegal long pips players may be able to block a full top spin loop while standing on one spot however that is not the only shot they will lay, it still requires a certian level of athleticism to be able to get very far with long pips because they still need to be able to attack at least somewhat with at least a good quality smash, they need to be able move from side to side across the table and possibly chop/play defense from further back.
There is quite a lot to being a defense player.
I have much more respect for choppers after being beaten and comletely humbled by an 11 year old chopper, she was playing with dtecs, i fell apart towards the end of the game because i was getting tired from constantly looping and she was doing just fine chopping back everything, it was close, her winning in a deuce in the 5th set but still, she had to constantly move around the table to return my shots.
I think this applies to both legal and illegal pips players however extra long pips that are illegal may find this slightly easier but not to the degree where they can stand still and not move at all, not even close.

 

[Gtsnake]

I just wonder what happens when a long pips player comes up against another long pips player....

 

[blahness]

I was waiting for James Z's reply however I thought it would be a positive reply to Tony and not a massive heaping pile of sarcasm towards Blahness, however i find that i also disagree with Blahness.
Illegal long pips players may be able to block a full top spin loop while standing on one spot however that is not the only shot they will lay, it still requires a certian level of athleticism to be able to get very far with long pips because they still need to be able to attack at least somewhat with at least a good quality smash, they need to be able move from side to side across the table and possibly chop/play defense from further back.
There is quite a lot to being a defense player.
I have much more respect for choppers after being beaten and comletely humbled by an 11 year old chopper, she was playing with dtecs, i fell apart towards the end of the game because i was getting tired from constantly looping and she was doing just fine chopping back everything, it was close, her winning in a deuce in the 5th set but still, she had to constantly move around the table to return my shots.
I think this applies to both legal and illegal pips players however extra long pips that are illegal may find this slightly easier but not to the degree where they can stand still and not move at all, not even close.

No problems with choppers using legal long pips, I enjoy playing with them too. But illegal long pips (the kind that can block full blown loopkills back short) - that's just plain unfair and unfun to play against. I still can beat them often, but the experience is usually quite unpleasant.

To be fair to James Z's point, boosting and speed gluing also does feel unfair - I played with setups like this and yes it gives a massive advantage to those who do cheat the system.

And in the amateur circuits, a LOT of ppl are in fact cheating on both the inverted and pips side of things.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

I just wonder what happens when a long pips player comes up against another long pips player....

i can reply this.

Not long ago I had to umpire a match between two long pipster. Both players have one side inverted and the other side long pips. Both play BH blocks.

Here is how it went.

Player A serves, Player B blocks. Player A returns and the ball either goes into the net or fly out of the table. After two serves the role is reverse and the same process repeats ad nauseum until the match ends.

I was bored to death.

NB: Both players has absolutely zero leg movement, both stand at the center and near table. 100% using hands and wrist with absolutely no body mechanics.

 

[blahness]

For eg, in China there was a guy called Lei Lei Lei (penhold illegal long pips guy) who actually defeated a young Lin Gaoyuan. It was the most ridiculous crap which would just be a laughing stock from the perspective of normal ppl in other sports. There should be no way he should even come close to a national level player like Lin Gaoyuan.

 

[t.t.s.t.a.r]

I just wonder what happens when a long pips player comes up against another long pips player....

It happens often at my club, we have a few under 19 choppers that are extremely good that often play each other, usually they just chop back and forth and the ball floats along with virtually no spin on it until one one them hits it too high and then SMASH that ball is flying into the next court.
Some times one of them loops with absolutely tons of spin on a slow loop so that the opponent hits it back high and again, smash, but honestly it isn't too different from "normal" table tennis or a normal inverted player playing against a chopper.
However this would look quite different if one of these players was a close to the table blocking type player like James is trying to become, I imagine the chopper would try and chop very long on the table with as much spin as possible making it difficult for the blocker to return and then the chopper would loop.
Choppers tend to have some of the spinniest topspin loops if they are playing with one side inverted rubber I have found.

So if anything most high level choppers I have played with and seen play have just as good loops if not better than your average attacking player.
Just they mostly play defense.
When playing like this there is a lot of going back and forth from close to the table to quite far back.

In my opinion any rubber or pips should be allowed as long as they aren't too extremely long (more than 2.5mm in total) as well as any booster as long as it isn't toxic should be allowed. This may throw me in crossfire from both sides by saying it but honestly I think this should be fair as it really does give more of a level playing field and nobody is then technically cheating.

No problems with choppers using legal long pips, I enjoy playing with them too. But illegal long pips (the kind that can block full blown loopkills back short) - that's just plain unfair and unfun to play against. I still can beat them often, but the experience is usually quite unpleasant.

To be fair to James Z's point, boosting and speed gluing also does feel unfair - I played with setups like this and yes it gives a massive advantage to those who do cheat the system.

And in the amateur circuits, a LOT of ppl are in fact cheating on both the inverted and pips side of things.

At the start of the post you said that you had fun playing illegal long pips and then here you are saying that they are the opposite to play against, maybe I'm missing something but it sounds a lot like your contradicting yourself here.

For eg, in China there was a guy called Lei Lei Lei (penhold illegal long pips guy) who actually defeated a young Lin Gaoyuan. It was the most ridiculous crap which would just be a laughing stock from the perspective of normal ppl in other sports. There should be no way he should even come close to a national level player like Lin Gaoyuan.

Again I have to agree with James, the only laughing stock here would be Lin Gaoyuan's incompetency against extra long pips, this speaks nothing at all against Lei Lei, it only shows he knows how to use his equipment properly.

 

[blahness]

At the start of the post you said that you had fun playing illegal long pips and then here you are saying that they are the opposite to play against, maybe I'm missing something but it sounds a lot like your contradicting yourself here.


Again I have to agree with James, the only laughing stock here would be Lin Gaoyuan's incompetency against extra long pips, this speaks nothing at all against Lei Lei, it only shows he knows how to use his equipment properly.

No I said I enjoy playing against legal long pips (one of my regular training partners also use long pips).

What I find unfun to play against is treated or illegal long pips like the one Tony played against. I have faced off against them and they are a net harm to the sport's legitimacy for obvious reasons.

Sports are sports for a reason - they should challenge the limits of the human physicality, not rely on cheap tricks.

It's for eg like going into eSports and facing off against aimbots, maphacks in Starcraft, or chess players playing against ppl using engine help.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I was waiting for James Z's reply however I thought it would be a positive reply to Tony and not a massive heaping pile of sarcasm towards Blahness, however i find that i also disagree with Blahness.
Illegal long pips players may be able to block a full top spin loop while standing on one spot however that is not the only shot they will lay, it still requires a certian level of athleticism to be able to get very far with long pips because they still need to be able to attack at least somewhat with at least a good quality smash, they need to be able move from side to side across the table and possibly chop/play defense from further back.
There is quite a lot to being a defense player.
I have much more respect for choppers after being beaten and comletely humbled by an 11 year old chopper, she was playing with dtecs, i fell apart towards the end of the game because i was getting tired from constantly looping and she was doing just fine chopping back everything, it was close, her winning in a deuce in the 5th set but still, she had to constantly move around the table to return my shots.
I think this applies to both legal and illegal pips players however extra long pips that are illegal may find this slightly easier but not to the degree where they can stand still and not move at all, not even close.

Haha, I'm still waiting for SJan's compliment. It might come in an alternate universe.
he thought those kind of pips are unbeatable.
actually, it is just about reading where the ball will drop, and the rest is so much easier
reading where the ball will drop and how soft/hard is it, is maybe the biggest challenge

I love choppers. Even though Sjan lies and say I hate them. I have probably fed multiball and trained choppers more than him in terms of hours to date.
To me, proper modern or classic chopper is an art, a marathon and to go 20 or 30 chops in a row, is true "tai chi" of fighting.

In fact, one of my favorite Taiwanese choppers, just finished her Jia A tournament in China yesterday. Sadly, as a junior (not yet 17), she lost all her singles game in Jia A. I had to give her moral motivation, since there is not too many choppers in the world at age 16, that can go and challenge a bunch of Chinese B team players.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

No I said I enjoy playing against legal long pips (one of my regular training partners also use long pips).

What I find unfun to play against is treated or illegal long pips like the one Tony played against. I have faced off against them and they are a net harm to the sport's legitimacy for obvious reasons.

Sports are sports for a reason - they should challenge the limits of the human physicality, not rely on cheap tricks.

I think cheap tricks is just that.
Even my opponent doesn't know when the ball will go long and when it won't.
I mean, if you are so good in what you do, you should grasp and know exactly what you doing.
and when even he isn't sure, then, his strength is only the inconsistency in his rubber and not him as a player.

This is no difference to say playing with a curve ball and some times the ball arcs in and some times not. There is no skill in that, it is just pure luck and hoping for the best.

But then again, in Asia, there is actually tops of illegal long pips out there in the amateur space, among veteran players and even if it is legal pips, it has been "heat treated". It just so much of them, that no youngsters want to play with them.

 

[t.t.s.t.a.r]

No I said I enjoy playing against legal long pips (one of my regular training partners also use long pips).

What I find unfun to play against is treated or illegal long pips like the one Tony played against. I have faced off against them and they are a net harm to the sport's legitimacy for obvious reasons.

Sports are sports for a reason - they should challenge the limits of the human physicality, not rely on cheap tricks.

It's for eg like going into eSports and facing off against aimbots, maphacks in Starcraft, or chess players playing against ppl using engine help.

I find this comparison unjust as for each of those examples you compared using these pips to something else doing all the thinking and playing for you where as you still need to be able to play pretty damn good table tennis to excel using this equipment.
Yes this rubber may be more difficult to play against however it simply requires adjusting your playing style.
Treated pips are obviously not allowed same as for example a VLC booster, however they are also easy to spot and then you could complain against them.
Super long pips however just add a bit of extra back spin and play shorter shots, there is nothing stopping you from pushing those shots back instead of smashing a no spin chop a shorter pip would produce

 

[NextLevel]

I think cheap tricks is just that.
Even my opponent doesn't know when the ball will go long and when it won't.
I mean, if you are so good in what you do, you should grasp and know exactly what you doing.
and when even he isn't sure, then, his strength is only the inconsistency in his rubber and not him as a player.

This is no difference to say playing with a curve ball and some times the ball arcs in and some times not. There is no skill in that, it is just pure luck and hoping for the best.

But then again, in Asia, there is actually tops of illegal long pips out there in the amateur space, among veteran players and even if it is legal pips, it has been "heat treated". It just so much of them, that no youngsters want to play with them.

I think all the innovations have largely gone towards supporting the looping game, I think the frictionless long pips that are now illegal should have been allowed to stay, and let players adjust to them with practice. But again, that is my view.

 

[JJ Ng]

That long pip rubber looks interesting.

The analogy to badminton is interesting. I agree that in badminton you have to be 100% fit or else you are a chopped liver.

I play against a hard bat guy at the club. He poses a lot of problems to many players in the club. You always have to lunge forward to make sure you loop it at the right spot. When he attacks, you have to block the ball with slightly open angle. It really messes with your head and timing. I try not to play him more than once or twice a week. Or else it will mess up my strokes and my timing. But when we play I enjoy it. My head just hurts from all the thinking I have to do in the beginning and the middle of the rally.

He is good and is not good with spin so sometimes serving heavy spins actually works. So I always have to think when I serve.

But usually once we go 6-8 rallies he usually makes mistake so that bails me out quite a bit. I just have to keep on remembering to block with slightly open angle. That can be mentally exhausting.

 

[NextLevel]

I find this comparison unjust as for each of those examples you compared using these pips to something else doing all the thinking and playing for you where as you still need to be able to play pretty damn good table tennis to excel using this equipment.
Yes this rubber may be more difficult to play against however it simply requires adjusting your playing style.
Treated pips are obviously not allowed same as for example a VLC booster, however they are also easy to spot and then you could complain against them.
Super long pips however just add a bit of extra back spin and play shorter shots, there is nothing stopping you from pushing those shots back instead of smashing a no spin chop a shorter pip would produce

Agreed, and they are a weapon against the overuse of power in the game, bringing back an element of thought and control and strategy that it to some degree seems like that ITTF have been trying to kill IMHO.

 

[t.t.s.t.a.r]

I think all the innovations have largely gone towards supporting the looping game, I think the frictionless long pips that are now illegal should have been allowed to stay, and let players adjust to them with practice. But again, that is my view.

This is exactly mine and James Z's point of view in this I feel, people don't like having to use better tactics and moving their feet more to perform more difficult shots.