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  1. sidthelefty is offline
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    #21
    u guys are overreacting even more than zj himself lol first of all even if players shake hands these days they just slap hands not shake so its not a big deal....most players slap hands nowadays...i dont though but u cant froce someone to shake ur hand...it shldnt be a rule...i ment if ppl had sportsmanship theyd shake hands firmly... so dont judge zk like that...and btw i wanted zhang jike to win because ma long beat xu xin 4-0 too and xu xin is the better of 3 of them....i think zk deserves o go to olympics becuz he improved aloooot from where he was before wttc...i never liked zj but when ppl talk abt a top lvl player like that it pisses me off...do u guys no what its like to train that hard and lose like that? these guys train like beasts......no offence to anyone but dont judge him like he cant make misakes....i know he acts a bit arrogant but ppl can change ...and no im not just sayin this cuz i hate ma long....i actually admire him alot and incorporate some of his techniques in my training....all in all dont make it a bigger deal than it already is...its either players shake hands firmly if they want or not at all ...i hate those dead slaps....
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    #22
    shaking hands shouldnt be compulsory...ppl shld do it cuz they have sportmanship
    Blade : Yasaka Ma Lin extra off
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    #23
    i agree with ttmonster
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    #24
    Not shaking hands even when you get your a.. kicked demonstrates bad sportsmanship and a bad attitude in general. Hard to imagine this will sit well with CNT. No way he dumped the match. He got dumped by the best player in the world at the moment and he's pissed. Expect a corrective interview at the very least by Liu Guoliang.

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    #25
    Diplomatic response from Zhang, probably forced by the CNT staff. If there were another reason for it and he'd mention it, there would be a bigger riot, which helps nobody. Besides, in Asia handshaking doesn't have the value it has in Europe. It could even be possible that he thought 'okay, Asian championships, Chinese final, forget about European habits'

    And Wilco, please calm down xD I think it is good that you are not an umpire haha, 'I don't like your attitude' is not a valid reason to give a red card Ma Long should have had a yellow for time-wasting at 9-5 in the 4th. That would be acceptable.

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    #26
    I just don't want to give my opinion cause I don't know the real reason of all that story. I don't want to blame Zhang Jike, he loses several big match (against Ma Long) and he was always doing the shakehand... Maybe he did that on purpose maybe not, who knows?

    But I like Ma Long's reaction, he was like 'What the heck...I think he forgot to do something...' XD
    VOLUNTEER FOR THE WTTC IN PARIS YAAAAAY

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    #27
    In China this topic (refuse shaking hand) was frequently discussed, most people think zhang jike is an unpolitly person.
    Zhang jike knows how to make a good public relation, so he pologise to Ma lon for not shaking hand, otherwize he will be punished.May be missed London.
    Ma long answered Together means make efforts together, its just a politely reply. What could he say?

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    #28
    This is sport, not everyone gets on, even in the same team..its generating more publicity fo tt,,,, more please,,,,get the sport high profile....not as if he spat in his face or had a mass brawl.... Can ma win the olympics or will a seething zhang win 10 in the 7th ,,, would nt bet against it...

  9. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #29
    I have to be honest, I personally think you guys are making a big deal out of this. You just cannot tell what is going on inside someone after a loss like that. Look at the scores. The first game is 11-9, the second and third games are both 12-10. If I lost 3 games in a match that were that close I would probably be pretty upset. I might be upset that I messed up and could not even pull one of those 3 games out.

    In the first game Zhang Jike was up 9-8 and lost 11-9. In the second game he was up 10-8 and lost 12-10. In the third game, down 11-10 he went for a flip on a serve that he obviously did not read right and it went straight into the net. My money says he thought he should have won the first two and that he messed up and gave Ma Long the third game with bad serve and a bad return of serve when the game was on the line.

    Who ever thought this was a blowout should watch the match. And Zhang Jike probably felt that he should have won both of the first two games; and he really should have been able to pull out both. Nothing against Ma Long. He played great and came up big when he needed to. But Zhang Jike had to be upset with HIMSELF at how he played 2 game points and a spot where he was up 9-8. So knowing his background and how infrequently he wins against Ma Long, he must have been upset and upset in a way that most of you are not understanding. In the 4th game, when Ma Long was up 4-2 they had an intense rally where Zhang Jike had Ma Long backed up and on defense, and Zhang Jike blows the point, it is a rally he really should have been able to win, after the point he flips his racket onto the table in disgust and for the rest of the match he looks like he is elsewhere; he is not playing like the same player. At 9-5 and 10-5 he looks like he is just not even really playing any more. He looks mentally broken and out of it. So I say, who cares if he shakes Ma Long's hand.

    Hey, most of you guys who are complaining that he did not shake Ma Long's hand are not emotionally imbalanced so you probably have no idea what the range of things he might have been feeling through that 4th game and after the match. But I am betting that he was upset to a point that most of you cannot understand.
    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 03-02-2012 at 11:00 AM.
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    #30
    I agree with Carl. Also not shaking someones hand is not as bad as stealing points or not apologizing for lucky balls for example. But about these things people don't make as big a problem as not shaking someones hand.
    Besides, it is possible that he really just forgot it. You can't just rule that out, although it is unlikely. However, after the WTTC final he won, he shook one umpires hand twice. I don't think that was on purpose But if he forgot he shook her hand, it is also possible that he would think he shook someones hand while he didn't.

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    #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Horowitz
    I have to be honest, I personally think you guys are making a big deal out of this. You just cannot tell what is going on inside someone after a loss like that. Look at the scores. The first game is 11-9, the second and third games are both 12-10. If I lost 3 games in a match that were that close I would probably be pretty upset. I might be upset that I messed up and could not even pull one of those 3 games out.

    In the first game Zhang Jike was up 9-8 and lost 11-9. In the second game he was up 10-8 and lost 12-10. In the third game, down 11-10 he went for a flip on a serve that he obviously did not read right and it went straight into the net. My money says he thought he should have won the first two and that he messed up and gave Ma Long the third game with bad serve and a bad return of serve when the game was on the line.

    Who ever thought this was a blowout should watch the match. And Zhang Jike probably felt that he should have won both of the first two games; and he really should have been able to pull out both. Nothing against Ma Long. He played great and came up big when he needed to. But Zhang Jike had to be upset with HIMSELF at how he played 2 game points and a spot where he was up 9-8. So knowing his background and how infrequently he wins against Ma Long, he must have been upset and upset in a way that most of you are not understanding. In the 4th game, when Ma Long was up 4-2 they had an intense rally where Zhang Jike had Ma Long backed up and on defense, and Zhang Jike blows the point, it is a rally he really should have been able to win, after the point he flips his racket onto the table in disgust and for the rest of the match he looks like he is elsewhere; he is not playing like the same player. At 9-5 and 10-5 he looks like he is just not even really playing any more. He looks mentally broken and out of it. So I say, who cares if he shakes Ma Long's hand.

    Hey, most of you guys who are complaining that he did not shake Ma Long's hand are not emotionally imbalanced so you probably have no idea what the range of things he might have been feeling through that 4th game and after the match. But I am betting that he was upset to a point that most of you cannot understand.
    To some point I agree with you Carl, but no matter how upset you are, there is no excuse for not shaking hands in the tradition of good sportsmanship. I know TT is alle he's got in life, but then he should pay some respect. He might not be a bad person, but it wasn't good to not shake Ma Longs hand for sure.
    Don't hesitate. If you want to reach your goal, just go for it!

  12. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Anders
    To some point I agree with you Carl, but no matter how upset you are, there is no excuse for not shaking hands in the tradition of good sportsmanship. I know TT is alle he's got in life, but then he should pay some respect. He might not be a bad person, but it wasn't good to not shake Ma Longs hand for sure.
    Hey, Anders, I respect your opinion and I know that there are so many people on this forum who agree with you that a handshake after a match is important. I just don't see that it is. I think it is a formality that is too rigid. I personally feel that the person who won the match probably does not care either way because he won. I have never felt like I did not want to shake the hand of someone who I just won a match from. And, in my opinion, if you have to shake hands after a match no matter what, it does not mean anything; it is just a formality. So, I feel, rather than having it be some compulsory act that then loses its meaning, the person who lost should actually be the one who decides whether to do it, and then, you would see some handshakes that really meant something.

    There are times when I have lost a match where I didn't feel like there is a need or a point in giving the other person a handshake. And it might not have anything to do with the opponent. There are times when I don't want to shake the other person's hand and it definitely has to do with the opponent or something he did in the match. And there are times where I want to shake the other person's hand because they played great and I want to let them know I feel that way. In only one of those circumstances, the last one, would the handshake actually have real meaning.

    So why should it be compulsory.

    But every so often you see someone who is so upset that they lose touch with where they are and what they are doing. Not to be sexist or anything but I see this happen with women more often than with men. I think this is may be because for women it is more socially acceptable for them to be in touch with their feelings and express those kinds of emotions. I think, for men, often crying or being upset is really looked down upon and as a result most men, when they are feeling any other negative emotion, it ends up expressing itself as anger instead of the actual underlying emotion. That is often what happens when you try to suppress a heavy, negative emotion: it comes out as anger. But every so often you see someone, or have to deal with someone, who is so upset that they are not grounded and not in touch with where they are.

    If that is what is going on inside someone, I don't think they need to shake my hand after a match. I am sorry but I think the hand shake thing is way out of proportion to so many TT fans. After a basketball game, some of the guys from one team and the other shake each other's hands. Not always. Sometimes they just head to the locker rooms. After a baseball game it is rare that the two teams greet each other at all. After an American football game, sometimes the head coaches shake each other's hands, not always; sometimes some of the players greet some of the guys on the other team who they know and like, not always.

    Why should it be mandatory in Table Tennis. I really don't get the idea of repeating what sometimes comes out as a hollow gesture. I think a handshake should happen when it is felt by both players, and therefore conveys actual affection and acknowledgement of an achievement from the defeated player to the victor. I actually, personally think that it shows less respect to shake someone's hand when you don't mean it, than to choose not to shake the other person's hand.
    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 03-02-2012 at 02:37 PM.
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    #33
    I think its publicity for the sport, Zhang seems to be the bad boy at the min...most tt on eurosport shows zhang ripping of his shirt,,, people moaned about that ,but it is now the iconic shot from the worlds ,probably the most played tt photo,video in the last few years, now the non handshake....he definately stirs it up... excellent....
    Remeber Connors Mcenroe going at it many times,,, all good for the sport ...more please..

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    #34
    In the past, Liu Guoliang had mentioned that Zhang Jike has disciplinary issues, for example he had no respect for his coach. If this was a one-off incident, I guess that many would have dismissed it as a rash action. But, taking into account his past actions, he did himself no favours for the upcoming Olympics. I think he should learn to have respect for others including his teammates.

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    #35
    Now the chinese have a taste of individuality, let them get on with it... they ve been chucking matches for years,, is that not poor sportsmanship???
    We need some controversy or we ll just be another minority sport...

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    #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Horowitz
    I have to be honest, I personally think you guys are making a big deal out of this. You just cannot tell what is going on inside someone after a loss like that. Look at the scores. The first game is 11-9, the second and third games are both 12-10. If I lost 3 games in a match that were that close I would probably be pretty upset. I might be upset that I messed up and could not even pull one of those 3 games out.

    In the first game Zhang Jike was up 9-8 and lost 11-9. In the second game he was up 10-8 and lost 12-10. In the third game, down 11-10 he went for a flip on a serve that he obviously did not read right and it went straight into the net. My money says he thought he should have won the first two and that he messed up and gave Ma Long the third game with bad serve and a bad return of serve when the game was on the line.

    Who ever thought this was a blowout should watch the match. And Zhang Jike probably felt that he should have won both of the first two games; and he really should have been able to pull out both. Nothing against Ma Long. He played great and came up big when he needed to. But Zhang Jike had to be upset with HIMSELF at how he played 2 game points and a spot where he was up 9-8. So knowing his background and how infrequently he wins against Ma Long, he must have been upset and upset in a way that most of you are not understanding. In the 4th game, when Ma Long was up 4-2 they had an intense rally where Zhang Jike had Ma Long backed up and on defense, and Zhang Jike blows the point, it is a rally he really should have been able to win, after the point he flips his racket onto the table in disgust and for the rest of the match he looks like he is elsewhere; he is not playing like the same player. At 9-5 and 10-5 he looks like he is just not even really playing any more. He looks mentally broken and out of it. So I say, who cares if he shakes Ma Long's hand.

    Hey, most of you guys who are complaining that he did not shake Ma Long's hand are not emotionally imbalanced so you probably have no idea what the range of things he might have been feeling through that 4th game and after the match. But I am betting that he was upset to a point that most of you cannot understand.
    I agree with that. Nobody else than ZJK himself knows everthing what he is really thinking. I think I can call it a fact, that ZJK was upset after the match. And if you are upset you usually think like "Which faults did I make?" or "Why didn't I do this and that" (me at least) and so I find it quite possible that he forgot shaking Ma Long's hand, because he thinks he has already shaken.

    We in Germany usually shake hands after a match and say "Well played" (or sth like this) to each other. It shows that you have respect of your opponent (doesn't matter how good you and your opponent are) even if you lost.

    I find it is not rude when you really forgot shaking hands, but the spectators just see the fact that someone is not shaking the other's hands, nothing more. So they might interpretate it as "rude" because for the most of them shaking hands means respect to each other. But if someone avoid shaking hands on purpose (I have already seen this behaviour), I find it rude and somehow against the rules, which says that you have to present yourself well as a sportsman.
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    #37
    I agree with u Abakus apart from the last part. I don't see how it is against any rule. Also I find it weird that some people think that this influences his chances for the Olympics. The CNT at the moment are very aware of the need for more globabl attention that TT has. It is good to be the best in a sport, but not if nobody other than yourself pays attention to it. In terms of drawing attention, Zhang Jike is by miles the best candidate to represent China and carry out our sport. He is a colorful character, and the sport needs those. Some have it, some don't. If being a colorful character would be a reason to kick you off the team, table tennis will remain unnoticed forever.

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    #38
    Quote Originally Posted by harrybelafonte
    Now the chinese have a taste of individuality, let them get on with it... they ve been chucking matches for years,, is that not poor sportsmanship???
    We need some controversy or we ll just be another minority sport...
    You got this one wrong, the chinese players were forced to chuck matches by the authorities , I have first hand information on this one. In 70's players like Zhang Li and others were forced to chuck matches to North Korean players etc. But that you cannot blame on the player's sportsmanship.
    Lets go Spinny Looping !

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    #39
    Well said sir!
    Quote Originally Posted by WiWa
    I agree with u Abakus apart from the last part. I don't see how it is against any rule. Also I find it weird that some people think that this influences his chances for the Olympics. The CNT at the moment are very aware of the need for more globabl attention that TT has. It is good to be the best in a sport, but not if nobody other than yourself pays attention to it. In terms of drawing attention, Zhang Jike is by miles the best candidate to represent China and carry out our sport. He is a colorful character, and the sport needs those. Some have it, some don't. If being a colorful character would be a reason to kick you off the team, table tennis will remain unnoticed forever.

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    #40
    I didn't mean it's against the rule, that's why I said "somehow". You can still respect someone without shaking hands, but because this "shaking hands-ritual" became a sign of respect (for me at least), it comes rude to me. So, as long as someone doesn't really show his disrespect (e.g. by using swearwords), everything is alright in my point of view.
    Winning or losing doesn't matter. Fighting is the most important. - Evgueni Chtchetinine

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