Table tennis vs road cycling and what we know from science

Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl

Often habitual patterns of holding tension are not conscious because the person doing it is so used to the feeling that they don't even register it. Most of what I am actually doing is getting people to remove habitual patterns of holding tension and when the unwanted tension is removed, the movement pattern often just improves.

I realised that too, that somebody else sometimes, a lot of the times, can see my tension better than myself. When Tom Maynard told me my shoulder was too stiff, I wasn’t aware or intentionally made it stiff. So my focus shifted a lot to look at table tennis as a practise of relaxing. Then people started pointing this part and that part.

Only by relaxing, not by trying hard to use it, you start to feel how that part can go with the movements.

Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl

BTW: even though it is convenient to say I teach yoga, I am not really sure that is what I do. I just am not sure there is a term for what I do. Some of it is movement analysis and neuromuscular repatterining. Some of it is a creative approach to helping people make certain movement patterns more efficient. Some of it is simply getting people to do some moving and breathing that causes them to feel good and relaxed. From my perspective, what I do seems very simple.

USDC - "Do you feel that tension in your neck?"
Client - "No, my neck feels good."
USDC - holding out hand, "look at my hand."
Cl - "Oh wow. That feels better."



Often habitual patterns of holding tension are not conscious because the person doing it is so used to the feeling that they don't even register it. Most of what I am actually doing is getting people to remove habitual patterns of holding tension and when the unwanted tension is removed, the movement pattern often just improves.

But the movements and actions I use to work with people are so much more simple than a TT stroke; there are so many fewer moving parts and it is easy to isolate different parts of the movement. But it is interesting that, if you remove neck stress, you often remove shoulder, upper back and lower back stress too, often the chain continues into the hips. When you remove shoulder stress you can also cause neck stress to go away, when you remove hip stress you can sometimes get the neck to relax. The kinetic chains can be adjusted from more than one direction.

The specific movements and exercises don't matter as much as if they can be done with as little unwanted tension as possible. And the appearance of unwanted tension is usually a first line indication of something bigger building under the surface. So, in how I am using the term, I would distinguish between the work necessary to create a movement or action and the unwanted tension that indicates ineffective or inefficient work.

If you watch a great dancer or gymnast, the powerful movements they do often SEEM to have an effortless quality. But that would not contradict the fact that, the dancer or gymnast is doing an awful lot of work to generate those graceful movements.

If a camera followed me to all my clients, many people would wonder if what I was doing from one client to the next had anything to do with each other.

Like many people that are now past our prime, injuries, years of bad posture, lifting stuff and just general everyday life catches up with us, visits to the physio can become a lot more regular!!

I tend to have lower back and shoulder problems periodically, one physio I used to see called Maisie was a step ahead of most,
The first time I saw her, with a right shoulder issue, she did the standard appraisal, checked my history notes from the practice records, turned around and said ‘right, let’s find out what’s wrong with your right leg!!!??? Once I’ve found that problem, along with the tension in your back that’s also there, we can do a full treatment - leg back & shoulder.
5 minutes of examination of my leg, which pinpointed an issue I wasn’t even aware of (no pain issues) when she found the problem I almost jumped up vertically from a lying position!!
She was loving it!!! Told you, you had a leg issue as well she exclaimed with a big
So often there are other issues present, that can be a cause of the injury you get the pain from, or are a result of the injury you are aware of.
Injuries can be transferred throughout the body, you pull a muscle in the shoulder, back then tensions up, this then affects your legs!!!

Originally Posted by Tango K

I realised that too, that somebody else sometimes, a lot of the times, can see my tension better than myself. When Tom Maynard told me my shoulder was too stiff, I wasn’t aware or intentionally made it stiff. So my focus shifted a lot to look at table tennis as a practise of relaxing. Then people started pointing this part and that part.

Only by relaxing, not by trying hard to use it, you start to feel how that part can go with the movements.

I could be wrong, but I think this is being ‘ in pai’ relax tense relax, so you are relaxed before contact, tense at contact and relaxed after contact, easier said than done!!

This has been a great thread and thank you guys for allowing me to be a part of it. Really thoughtful and experienced. I'm glad that I decided to join. Hope to learn a lot from you guys.
I approach TT from an athletic background. I am very serious about tennis and play 10 hours a week, (am 4.5 adult league player) and my wife was a Division 2 college player. Am super serious about road riding as posted above. I can tell that I will approach and become obsessed with TT as well and my wife and stepson are doing the same. We have a table in the garage and although have made mistakes with equipment early on...(too fast, without corresponding skill level, I am now using Stiga All Around Classic with slightly slower and more control oriented Rozena rubbers. Am going to play this for at least a year and really work hard on technique and skill which is how I have approached all sports for my entire life. I am also highly competitive and hope to some day play some club TT.
My wish would be that TT was looked at as more of a "sport" with fitness playing a bigger role, but I can't have everything I want!
I look forward to asking lots of questions and getting good info from you guys.
To the OP........wish you much success in your cycling. Keep at it and participate in fast strategy-oriented group rides if you have them in your area. Nothing makes you stronger.

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It is possible to get the EJ virus for cycling and it costs a lot more. Also more little bits to upgrade. The things that actually made me better were things that let me accurately monitor what I was doing. Some of the other expensive stuff probably causes a barely measured effect (at my low level) but definitely makes the bikes look more badass. No regrets.

Table tennis is best when you are liberated from mechanics. I'm reminded of something one of the grests said about jazz improvisation (I've forgotten who), "study hard, lesrn everything, then work to forget it". Or something like that. The idea is if you're actually thinking about your mechanics in free play, you will suck. If you're thinking about where your left foot is, your right foot will mess you up.

Liberation comes from really hard drilling. You need to be strong g enough, fit enough, and flexible enough to withstand it.

Originally Posted by wheelbuilder

This has been a great thread and thank you guys for allowing me to be a part of it. Really thoughtful and experienced. I'm glad that I decided to join. Hope to learn a lot from you guys.
I approach TT from an athletic background. I am very serious about tennis and play 10 hours a week, (am 4.5 adult league player) and my wife was a Division 2 college player. Am super serious about road riding as posted above. I can tell that I will approach and become obsessed with TT as well and my wife and stepson are doing the same. We have a table in the garage and although have made mistakes with equipment early on...(too fast, without corresponding skill level, I am now using Stiga All Around Classic with slightly slower and more control oriented Rozena rubbers. Am going to play this for at least a year and really work hard on technique and skill which is how I have approached all sports for my entire life. I am also highly competitive and hope to some day play some club TT.
My wish would be that TT was looked at as more of a "sport" with fitness playing a bigger role, but I can't have everything I want!
I look forward to asking lots of questions and getting good info from you guys.
To the OP........wish you much success in your cycling. Keep at it and participate in fast strategy-oriented group rides if you have them in your area. Nothing makes you stronger.

Sent from my BBB100-1 using Tapatalk

Where do you live?

Also you have made an excellent choice of equipment.

Originally Posted by Baal

Where do you live?

Also you have made an excellent choice of equipment.

Pacifica Ca. And yes, you are completely right about Cat 5. That is a dangerous peloton to be in. Hindsight is of course 20/20 and am certain I was part of the problem.
Thanks for the bat comment. All wood is better than carbon for me at this level of ability. My EJ status is strong from Tennis and Cycling. Want to approach TT from a much different mindset.

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Pacifica is in arguably the single best area for TT in the US.

Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl

Something useful with shadow strokes, if you do them in front of a mirror where you can see your whole body, without thinking about it too much, you can correct certain aspects of the stroke because they will stand out and not look right. I think shadow strokes can be very useful for people at a certain level.

I do it all the time. Not exactly in front of a mirror but the window does reflect. I rotate around to see the swing from various angles. Previously it was more about mechanics yes (like arm backswing, leg right leaning etc.) but now it gets more subtle. It does show some parts of the body are stiff (they don’t look fluid in the mirror, I don’t know how to explain scientifically but I get the feel).

This really is an interesting thread!

Pre:COVID rules and having to work from home, I cycle everyday to work and while than isn't the same ballpark as what Baal is talking cycling wise (as its commuting – but still a good distance) there is always data to look at and easily accessable, with the apps available on phones like Strava you can monitor all kinds of things and see progress. This just isn't the same with TT – theres so many variables and is really hard to see progress and development in a binary way.

Watching and filming play, though sometimes painful to watch back is the only way to help see progress. I find it really hard to understand technical changes that are only explained or shown to me without seeing myself doing it. In my head I'm often thinking "well I'm doing what they are telling me" but when you see it your not.

Next world nr. 1 in road-cycling? I bet on FZD...

Originally Posted by Baal

One thing I'm convinced of, ive seen coaches who can get a young kid to 2300 in a couple of years are TERRIBLE for adult learners and may actually be dangerous. You can't coach adults exactly the same way, and sometimes you have to teach people how to make better use of what they have.

Amen! I am currently watching a player, who was formerly ranked top 5 in the world, coach their young child. They mainly feed multi-ball and say very, very little. Kids don't have a lot of control over their bodies and just naturally find the best ways to do things for their body type. The instructions are very vague. For adults this is a recipe for disaster. Also many former top players think coaching adults is an absolute waste of time, so they aren't going to be too concerned with fixing your technique anyway.

I think the best coaches for adults are the OCD types. They have thought about every aspect of a technique and can tell the adult where the player is making the most mistakes in their form. They can fix one area then later work on more refined mistakes. Watching videos of the CNT coaches, it is clear these people were excellent players who have thought a lot about how to play. I think the German coach Richard Prause is also like this. He has really thought about technique. While training in China I got to ask a CNT coach one question and the answer helped me more than anything I was told in my 2 years there.

Some of the other coaches who were good players could not explain why 1+1 = 2 if their life depended on it. They might know what drills to do and this type of thing will work with kids. And kids will naturally get good if they put in the time. However adults need details. They also need someone to care enough to tell them the details.