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  1. lodro is offline
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    #1

    Can you see the ball turning ???

    I remember somebody telling that in order to know how to detect the spin of the incoming ball one has to watch the label on the ball
    and so establish the direction of the spin.
    I also remember that when i read this I was thinking : "Are you having a laugh" ????

    I am old, have bad eyesight regardless of glasses, I also have cognitive problems and sometimes feel lucky to just SEE the ball /

    So be honest, tell me : CAN YOU REALLY SEE THE BALL SPINNING ????
    When receiving can you decide what to do to the ball because you can see the direction of the spin ???

  2. ricospin is offline
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    #2
    It depends really. I feel like on service it's an easier time to see the spin if it's something slow and spinny. Sometimes you see the logo, sometimes you don't. (something i thought about was deliberately hiding the logo for service... if it's underspin, have the logo facing the side, but it's almost pointless if your motion isn't deceiving and you can't disguise how your serve bounces)

    Funny enough I see the logo more often than not when the serve is no spin.

    Mid rally is impossible to see.
    Last edited by ricospin; 08-28-2022 at 06:28 PM.

  3. lodro is offline
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    #3
    Quote Originally Posted by ricospin
    It depends really. I feel like on service it's an easier time to see the spin if it's something slow and spinny. Sometimes you see the logo, sometimes you don't. (something i thought about was deliberately hiding the logo for service... if it's underspin, have the logo facing the side, but it's almost pointless if your motion isn't deceiving and you can't disguise how your serve bounces)

    Funny enough I see the logo more often than not when the serve is underspin.

    Mid rally is impossible to see.

    sorry, i might not have been clear enough.
    I really mean seeing the spin right after the serve and the ball coming towards me.
    I know that a spin can be anticipated by observing the movements made during the serving action but can you guys actually see the ball spinning ???

    If one can see the logo spinning one would wonder why ITTF would not have put some restriction in the rules re. size and colors of the logo 😁
    But I digress, sorry


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    #4
    Reading spin is one of the harder parts. People can, though, but I don't think it's done by tracking the motions of the ball print. I think it's done by reading the speed and flight curve of the ball. Of course, without spin gravity along with deceleration due to air friction would solely determine that flight curve; it's the difference between that curve and the actual one that makes us able to determine the spin, because the aberration from the spinless trajectory is due to the Magnus effect.

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    #5
    I watch the label on the ball. Yes, I see the ball spinning no problem but only to certain rps.
    I have marked some of my robot balls with black stripes around the circumference so that each of the stripes crosses the other at 90 degrees.
    I like to see how much spin "reversal" I get with my LP 0X and anti.
    I can see the ball turning up to a certain rate somewhere in the 20-30 rps range. After that I know the ball has more spin that must be respected and dealt with.

    However, now I am curious and may do an experiment to see how fast the ball spin before the label is just a blur.
    I have to see if we have a non contact digital tachometer that can measure the spin at rates higher than I can see. The test was be to glue a TT ball to the tip of a drill or Dremel tool and spin it while holding a digital tachometer looking for a spot or line to move in its field of vision.

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  6. Tony's Table Tennis is offline
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    #6
    Quote Originally Posted by yoass
    Reading spin is one of the harder parts. People can, though, but I don't think it's done by tracking the motions of the ball print. I think it's done by reading the speed and flight curve of the ball.

    Spot on.
    From servers body action to the flight of the ball, you need to have your conclusion before the ball crosses the net, because the next thought would been your service return execution

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  7. lodro is offline
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    #7
    thanks boys for your kind and wise input , you know i appreciate it very much .
    But you know i am just a bit of a simpleton so don't get toooo sophisticated
    and PLEASE also give a simple YES or NO 🤣

  8. lodro is offline
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    #8
    Quote Originally Posted by yoass
    Reading spin is one of the harder parts. People can, though, but I don't think it's done by tracking the motions of the ball print. I think it's done by reading the speed and flight curve of the ball. Of course, without spin gravity along with deceleration due to air friction would solely determine that flight curve; it's the difference between that curve and the actual one that makes us able to determine the spin, because the aberration from the spinless trajectory is due to the Magnus effect.

    THAT IS A NO, right


  9. lodro is offline
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    #9
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    I watch the label on the ball. Yes, I see the ball spinning no problem but only to certain rps.
    I have marked some of my robot balls with black stripes around the circumference so that each of the stripes crosses the other at 90 degrees.
    I like to see how much spin "reversal" I get with my LP 0X and anti.
    I can see the ball turning up to a certain rate somewhere in the 20-30 rps range. After that I know the ball has more spin that must be respected and dealt with.

    However, now I am curious and may do an experiment to see how fast the ball spin before the label is just a blur.
    I have to see if we have a non contact digital tachometer that can measure the spin at rates higher than I can see. The test was be to glue a TT ball to the tip of a drill or Dremel tool and spin it while holding a digital tachometer looking for a spot or line to move in its field of vision.

    THAT IS A MAYBE, right


  10. lodro is offline
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    #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony's Table Tennis

    Spot on.
    From servers body action to the flight of the ball, you need to have your conclusion before the ball crosses the net, because the next thought would been your service return execution

    THAT IS NO, right ?


  11. yoass is offline
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    #11
    Quote Originally Posted by lodro

    THAT IS A NO, right

    Right, no.

    Last edited by yoass; 08-28-2022 at 11:36 AM.

  12. yoass is offline
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    #12
    Quote Originally Posted by yoass

    RIght, no.

    And to be a little less uninformative, YES you can, or may be able to, see the ball spinning, but the fact that it spins does not help much. What you need to know is how much it spins, and in what way -- in what direction, and relative to which of the three planes it does so to what extent.


  13. NDH is online now
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    #13
    Simple answer - No.

    More complex answer.....

    If you *can* see it, I'd imagine the standard of play is not particularly high, and the level of spin is very low.

    But even the dead shots at a high level, the ability to read it does not come from the fact you can see the logo..... It comes from the body movement, arm movement, and general understanding of the game.

    If I try and concentrate on the spin of the ball, purely from looking at the ball, I'm going to be so far behind in my thinking, I'll never make a return.

    So.... No. Don't try and read the spin from the ball itself.

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  14. Brs is offline
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    #14
    No. You can't read spin from the label. My eyesight isn't too good either, I mean, I'm wearing progressives.

    What you can very usefully read is no-spin. So if the label is visible the ball is functionally no-spin. Not that it is zero rpm, but it's not enough spin to care about.

    So if you see the label at all don't lift the ball like it was backspin. Play more forward. By the time I see the label usually I have already committed to a stroke and miss long. But at least I know why.

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  15. Tony's Table Tennis is offline
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    #15
    I have never heard anyone say read spin on the ball. Unless it is very weak serves, otherwise the rotation is so fast that I would need to add boosters to my eyes to read the label.

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  16. Gozo is offline
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    #16
    Quote Originally Posted by lodro
    I remember somebody telling that in order to know how to detect the spin of the incoming ball one has to watch the label on the ball
    and so establish the direction of the spin.
    I also remember that when i read this I was thinking : "Are you having a laugh" ????

    I am old, have bad eyesight regardless of glasses, I also have cognitive problems and sometimes feel lucky to just SEE the ball /

    So be honest, tell me : CAN YOU REALLY SEE THE BALL SPINNING ????
    When receiving can you decide what to do to the ball because you can see the direction of the spin ???

    No. I can't see the label on the incoming ball.

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  17. brokenball is offline
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    #17
    Quote Originally Posted by lodro

    THAT IS A MAYBE, right

    NO! It is a sometimes! Depending.

    I can easily see the spin on the ball, by looking at the label, if it is not spinning too fast. What is to be determined is what is too fast. I am sure most people could see the label spin up to some rotational rate.
    I have been doing motion control most of my life. Watching things spin was common for me until I retired.
    Oh, there is another caveat. If the label is at the pole while spinning I obviously can't see the label rotate.

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    Last edited by brokenball; 08-28-2022 at 04:37 PM.

  18. lodro is offline
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    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony's Table Tennis
    I have never heard anyone say read spin on the ball. Unless it is very weak serves, otherwise the rotation is so fast that I would need to add boosters to my eyes to read the label.

    ohh, could you send me a bottle of the eye-booster please. 😁


  19. lodro is offline
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    #19
    Quote Originally Posted by NDH
    Simple answer - No.

    More complex answer.....

    If you *can* see it, I'd imagine the standard of play is not particularly high, and the level of spin is very low.

    But even the dead shots at a high level, the ability to read it does not come from the fact you can see the logo..... It comes from the body movement, arm movement, and general understanding of the game.

    If I try and concentrate on the spin of the ball, purely from looking at the ball, I'm going to be so far behind in my thinking, I'll never make a return.

    So.... No. Don't try and read the spin from the ball itself.

    After once reading the advise to look at the spin of the ball and realizing that I could not, I have always tried to use the methods that you describe.
    Thing is, I am not very good at that either 😁

    But i am not complaining. It is just one of the things in life I have to adapt to, as one gets older
    there is a general slowing down and unfortunately this applies to my TT game as well, which may i hasten to add, was never very fast anyway 😁


  20. lodro is offline
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    #20
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    NO! It is a sometimes! Depending.

    I can easily see the spin on the ball, by looking at the label, if it is not spinning too fast. What is to be determined is what is too fast. I am sure most people could see the label spin up to some rotational rate.
    I have been doing motion control most of my life. Watching things spin was common for me until I retired.
    Oh, there is another caveat. If the label is at the pole while spinning I obviously can't see the label rotate.

    thanks, this makes me feel more ""normal"
    On my robot I can choose the rpm of spin and could establish to what level of rotation I
    could see the spin .
    But now that the general trend of the answers to my question has been a NO it would be
    a futile exercise. Interesting maybe - but futile never the less.

    Thank you for your educated input


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