Xu Xin illegal Serve in Detail

hournikova17 said:

I just think the if the ittf is going to make a point to take away hiding the contact of serves, the professionals are the ones who should be held to the highest standards. I have seen little kids get called on illegal serves who probably can't help it. Professionals have enough services in their arsenal to know if the serve they are doing is illegal, then they should probably stay away from that serve for the rest of that match.
The players job isn't to enforce the rules...that is the sole duty of the umpire. Why have certified umpires if they're not their to enforce rules? Why would the ittf have the rule in the first place if they're not going to enforce it at the highest level.
The qatar open is not life or death. That is the place they should enforce it the most to let players know that illegal serves will be called, so don't bring those illegal serves to the world championships or you will be called. If they don't call them on the ittf pro tour, then it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to call them at the world championships either, because you need consistency throughout the officiating so the players can just focus on their play instead of rules.

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I think we all know the referees are not good at all. If we all think about the match between ma long and michael maze.
Maze got a yellow card for taking too much time, even tho it was ma long who wasnt ready yet to receive the service.
In my opinion referees should be former table tennis players or current table tennis players, not from the highest level but at least they know what is happening. Some referees like the lady in the match between ma long and maze just didnt have a clue at all what table tennis was and she just ruined the game.

Ittf should make a rule about the serve which makes it very clear how to serve and stick to it. To be honest the rule about the serve is pretty clear, but still people are not following it. If you do this in my division which is not even close to this level and you tell your oponent you are serving behind your back or something like that then you get an answer like "we are not pro players, we can serve how we want" and you cant do much about it because we dont play with official referees.

Carina said:

Looks illegal to me. The rule states that the server should project the ball "near vertically upwards" and from the photos, we can clearly see he was throwing it backwards towards his body. Thanks Dan for posting this interesting thread!

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Most umpires interpret that rule by saying "As long as the ball is traveling more distance vertically than horizontally, it is legal." Most umps allow you to throw the ball back to your body, as long as its visible and travels more distance vertically than horizontally.

Siegler said:

Most umpires interpret that rule by saying "As long as the ball is traveling more distance vertically than horizontally, it is legal." Most umps allow you to throw the ball back to your body, as long as its visible and travels more distance vertically than horizontally.

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I see. It could well be the case in reality. Nonetheless, I would still say why have a rule in the first place if it is not meant to be enforced (and not stating clearly certain allowance is allowable if the server is throwing the ball within certain limits etc). The fact that we have generated so much discussion in this forum already shows the legality of that serve was questionable. Regarding the ability of the server to generate more spin if he throws it more towards the bat, it is in fact laws of physics. Gravity is of course the same, but there is a horizontal velocity in the motion coming towards the bat, which at contact, can generate slightly more spin. Try it. Anyway, if there is no extra benefit, why would Xu Xin throw it so much backwards in the first place. Furthermore, we can also see from the clip the ball actually does become visible again at the point of contact, i.e. the throwing back might not necessarily just be for hiding purposes.

Carina said:

I see. It could well be the case in reality. Nonetheless, I would still say why have a rule in the first place if it is not meant to be enforced (and not stating clearly certain allowance is allowable if the server is throwing the ball within certain limits etc). The fact that we have generated so much discussion in this forum already shows the legality of that serve was questionable. Regarding the ability of the server to generate more spin if he throws it more towards the bat, it is in fact laws of physics. Gravity is of course the same, but there is a horizontal velocity in the motion coming towards the bat, which at contact, can generate slightly more spin. Try it. Anyway, if there is no extra benefit, why would Xu Xin throw it so much backwards in the first place. Furthermore, we can also see from the clip the ball actually does become visible again at the point of contact, i.e. the throwing back might not necessarily just be for hiding purposes.

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I'm going to disagree. I believe there is a bit of over-exaggeration with how much spin you can add to the ball by throwing it towards your paddle. As said before, you must throw the ball more vertically than horizontally. With that being said, having a minimum of throwing the ball 6 inches does not leave a lot of room to have a large velocity in the horizontal direction. You always have to throw the ball at a higher vertical velocity because you're fighting gravity. Thus the velocity in the vertical direction will always exceed the velocity in the horizontal direction. I'm saying this not to say you're flat out wrong, but the amount of extra backspin you could potentially generate is almost negligible compared to throwing the ball higher.

I believe players throw the ball horizontally as a style to their serve, and not to generate more speed or spin. I know I do it because it feels very comfortable to me to throw the ball a little to me. I could be wrong though, maybe the pros see a big difference since their serves are really top notch.

Most likely illegal because its not a vertical toss, but we dont know if Timo would be able to see it cuz we dont see Timo's perspective...

I am an international umpire and i umpired at the english open a few weeks ago.
basically the important part that makes this serve illegal is that the law below is broken :
2.6.2 The server shall then project the ball near vertically upwards, without
imparting spin, so that it rises at least 16cm after leaving the palm of the free
hand and then falls without touching anything before being struck.
He does not throw the ball near vertically upwards so forget the slight obstruction of the ball later in the serve because the serve is already illegal before it gets to that point.
Please remember it isn't easy judging from the side as us umpires see a different angle to you the spectator.
A good international referee taught myself and some colleagues a useful tip to spot things like this even though our angle isn't too good.
Basically look where the hand starts as he throws the ball and then see where the ball is struck by the racket, you can clearly see at any angle Xu starts near the middle of the table yet strikes the ball very close to the side so without a doubt you can see the ball has been thrown backwards by looking at the starting point and finishing point where the ball is struck.
To be fair this useful tip may not have been communicated to some umpires, to be honest i only recently learnt it at the english open.
Illegal serving is always a hot topic amongst match officials and many players but to be honest i find at the elite level most players are perfectly legal with their serves as you cannot afford to risk losing any points by being faulted at that level. Some players will push the umpire to see what they can get away with but most are fine.

kaikaz said:

I think we all know the referees are not good at all. If we all think about the match between ma long and michael maze.
Maze got a yellow card for taking too much time, even tho it was ma long who wasnt ready yet to receive the service.
In my opinion referees should be former table tennis players or current table tennis players, not from the highest level but at least they know what is happening. Some referees like the lady in the match between ma long and maze just didnt have a clue at all what table tennis was and she just ruined the game.

Ittf should make a rule about the serve which makes it very clear how to serve and stick to it. To be honest the rule about the serve is pretty clear, but still people are not following it. If you do this in my division which is not even close to this level and you tell your oponent you are serving behind your back or something like that then you get an answer like "we are not pro players, we can serve how we want" and you cant do much about it because we dont play with official referees.

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with all due respect all the international umpires i know have been playing table tennis for years and they are umpires NOT REFEREES, you have to understand in all sports you get inconsistency in standards of match officials.
The ITTF created a "Blue Badge" umpire status which is classed as the elite umpire, you will find these umpires at the best events and they do everything in uniform to each other which also includes presentation aspects also. These umpires get evaluated by highly trained assessors (one of them is the ITTF URC Chairman) and they must achieve certain standards regularly to keep the blue badge status.

That sounds good and all, frankly if you pick the rule apart piece by piece, and forgive me, I am in law school so it has become a habit, but you can make Xu Xin's serve entirely legal just based off the wordings of the rule. If the ITTF really wanted umpires to be super anal about it, they would have made the rules super super specific and not as vague as they are. For example:

2.6.2 The server shall then project the ball near vertically upwards, without
imparting spin, so that it rises at least 16cm after leaving the palm of the free
hand and then falls without touching anything before being struck.

This rule, that you have said is broken right from the beginning. Near vertically is a subjective measure. If the ball goes up more vertically than horizontally, then as far as the rule goes, Xu Xin's serve can be viewed as entirely legal. The rule could have said, player cannot project the ball more than 4 inches horizontally if they really wanted to nit pick.
2.6.4 From the start of service until it is struck, the ball shall be above the level of
the playing surface and behind the server's end line, and it shall not be hidden 2: The Laws of Table Tennis
Page 26 Handbook 2010-2011
from the receiver by the server or his doubles partner or by anything they
wear or carry.

This issue about hidden, is also quite subjective. Granted I didn't bother to read page 26 of the handbook. But as we talked about earlier, Xu Xin could do the same serve, but it would be significantly more visible for Boll, since he is a lefty and chooses to stand diagonally across from Xu Xin, than it would be for Ma Long standing at the left side. Does that mean that the same exact serve is legal and illegal depending on the situation? Could not Ma Long choose to stand to the far right like a left, even though he is a rightly? There is a lot of room there for movement within the rules. Because where the opponent chooses to stand or where he could stand is completely up in the air.

2.6.5 As soon as the ball has been projected, the server’s free arm and hand shall
be removed from the space between the ball and the net.
The space between the ball and the net is defined by the ball, the net and its indefinite
upward extension.

The words as soon as the ball has been projected, the server's free arm and hand shall be removed from the space between the ball and net. But it does not really state how quickly the arm and hand is to be removed. If a player began to remove his hand as soon as the ball as been projected, but just moves his hand slowly so that it only is completely gone the second before the ball contacts the paddle, is still completely within the confines of this rule.

It is because of these gray areas that we have this debate. I don't think the Chinese players are breaking any of the rules, they simply have read them in a way that is completely valid given the lack of specificity with the rules. And frankly, if the rules do have these gray areas, why wouldn't you take advantage of them as much as possible? Chinese players put more time and effort into their training, and part of that is putting more time into mastering their serves, and that should reap some benefits.

The fact is, in any popular sport, there is a lot of leeway within the rules, because everything is judged by humans, and not by a calculating computer. Refs in basketball, in football, baseball, depending on the situation often allow deviations from the rules, and just let the players play. In basketball, tons of fouls are purposely not called, not because the refs didn't see them, but because in a good heated game, you don't want to needlessly stop the action, or ruin the flow of the game. To make the rules super super specific and anal, and hence make the umpires super anal destroys the fluidity of the game, destroys the enjoyment of watching table tennis to some degree.

DaveCochrane said:

with all due respect all the international umpires i know have been playing table tennis for years and they are umpires NOT REFEREES, you have to understand in all sports you get inconsistency in standards of match officials.
The ITTF created a "Blue Badge" umpire status which is classed as the elite umpire, you will find these umpires at the best events and they do everything in uniform to each other which also includes presentation aspects also. These umpires get evaluated by highly trained assessors (one of them is the ITTF URC Chairman) and they must achieve certain standards regularly to keep the blue badge status.

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My apologies for saying, I shouldnt have said that.

But you have to agree with me that the lady umpire wasnt doing a good job in the match between maze and ma long right?

And why did the umpire said xu xin's serve was wrong 1 time even tho he throws the ball even worse afterwards? Thats what I mean with bad umpires, no offence to you.

its illegal indeed!!

IMO This serve is illegal because it is difficult for right handed players to see it

Like anything in life, such as stopping completely behind the line on stop sign, or speeding through yellow light, It's legal when you get away with it, and it's not legal when you get penalized a point for it. A lot of the rules in TT seemed made to be broken, like the rubber tuning, and the service rule, there are tuners that can't be detected, and just having sweat/dirt accidentally ending on the rubber surface can actually be considered as a form of tuning, since it is now slightly altered from the way it came out from the approved factory. the wording in the rules are a bit too absolute, where no humans can throw the ball perfectly vertical, etc. Table Tennis like any other sport, need to be entertaining to be able to grow big and popular, so the rules needed to support this very important aspect of the game, if not it will soon get boring to watch, and the whole sport would just dwindle down even more to something on the sideline. I rather see points being fought hard by 2 great players, than being awarded so easily by an over-zealous rule crazy umpires.

geotjakra said:

Like anything in life, such as stopping completely behind the line on stop sign, or speeding through yellow light, It's legal when you get away with it, and it's not legal when you get penalized a point for it. A lot of the rules in TT seemed made to be broken, like the rubber tuning, and the service rule, there are tuners that can't be detected, and just having sweat/dirt accidentally ending on the rubber surface can actually be considered as a form of tuning, since it is now slightly altered from the way it came out from the approved factory. the wording in the rules are a bit too absolute, where no humans can throw the ball perfectly vertical, etc. Table Tennis like any other sport, need to be entertaining to be able to grow big and popular, so the rules needed to support this very important aspect of the game, if not it will soon get boring to watch, and the whole sport would just dwindle down even more to something on the sideline. I rather see points being fought hard by 2 great players, than being awarded so easily by an over-zealous rule crazy umpires.

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I don't mean to sound so blunt, but this is wrong thinking in this situation. I would agree with you if the following situation were true:

Server, throws the ball from his finger tips, and while there is no noticeable sign that he is abusing this fact, the umpire calls fault. The ball, whether or not it was thrown from his palm or fingers, would not have changed at all. Unless the opponent or umpire clearly sees the server using his fingers to an advantage, the call is unjustified.

However, in this thread, this situation is very important to get right. The rule is there to specifically deny any server to hiding the ball. Whether it was intentional or not, the server gets a clear advantage by not showing the spin/speed of the ball as it comes off the racket. If an umpire were to call fault on a server in this situation, then the game changes from the server having an advantage of hiding the ball, to now the opponent can read the serve as it was intended by the rule change in 2000. Then the call is justified.

SCHLAGO said:

IMO This serve is illegal because it is difficult for right handed players to see it

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By your own reasoning, that makes the question really ambiguous. The same serve done, would be legal in one situation and not in the other? just because your opponent chooses to stand at a different place? that seems illogical

Siegler said:

I don't mean to sound so blunt, but this is wrong thinking in this situation. I would agree with you if the following situation were true:

Server, throws the ball from his finger tips, and while there is no noticeable sign that he is abusing this fact, the umpire calls fault. The ball, whether or not it was thrown from his palm or fingers, would not have changed at all. Unless the opponent or umpire clearly sees the server using his fingers to an advantage, the call is unjustified.

However, in this thread, this situation is very important to get right. The rule is there to specifically deny any server to hiding the ball. Whether it was intentional or not, the server gets a clear advantage by not showing the spin/speed of the ball as it comes off the racket. If an umpire were to call fault on a server in this situation, then the game changes from the server having an advantage of hiding the ball, to now the opponent can read the serve as it was intended by the rule change in 2000. Then the call is justified.

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What I am trying to say is that the serve rule and the rubber tuning rule need to be changed, these two rules are just impossible to enforce a 100%, rules are there to make things fair and even for everybody, but these two rules have been abused time and time again, so the only way to make it fair to everybody is that the rule needed to be modified to be more realistic to what is happening in the real game situation. It's a known fact, though nobody admit it blatantly that many players from the beginner level up to the very top tiers post-tuned their rubbers to perform better. And the serve thing remains a controversy and unnecessary point of debate since the time it was changed in 2000? I would suggest keep it simple,such as: "serve behind the white line, must be thrown up from an open palm to a height not less than 7 inches, as close to vertical as possible give an take 10 degrees. and make sure at the point of contact between the ball to the racket, it can be seen clearly by your opponent and the umpire".
And as for the tuning goes, just take away the whole "cannot be post altered bs" and just enforce strictly the maximum spong+rubber tickness and eveness of the surface, etc. No need to make a rule that cannot be easily, economically enforced. These are just my personal opinion, you are free to agree or disagree.

Once again I stress the important factor for this sport to grow in popularity to something like soccer or basketball, it needs to be entertaining or else, nobody want to watch it, and nobody want to play it anymore!!!!!

This serve is definately illegal for two reasons, 1. the serve is not fully visible, pretty sure ITTF rules state that the ball must be fully visible from the moment the ball leaves the palm to the moment the ball has made contact with the bat and as contact is not fully seen it makes it hard to see how and what spin is on the ball, resulting in an error from a World no. 2 from a serve that slowly and easily drifts long, if I did that to Ma Long (if I could with the same amount of spin) but legally then the forehand loop would whip past me for a winner. 2. The second reason is simply because the serve is not thrown in a vertical straight line (sure your allowed some variance as you can't throw it perfect everytime) but Xu Xin throws it to himself causing a greater speed towards his bat; increasing friction on the rubber hence obviously increasing the amount of spin. However, there is a bigger picture at hand here. World wide there is a problem with illegal/legal serves and it comes down to the officials not being strict enough and simply letting serves pass as all the other umpires and officials are letting it pass too.

is this service illegal too ? at 1:55 and 5:14




what do you think ?

scylla24 said:

i dont know if the ball is invisible from timo's position but xu throw it backward instead of vertically upward. this gives him advantage in generating spin according to me.

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scylla24 said:

Everyone throws it back a little. And as long as you throw it up from your palm, its really hard to get any spin.

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Yeah, maybe!

Well...

About the rules, I just wanted to say two things :
First, rules are more guidelines than enforceable laws 'stricto sensu' (it is said that umpires can relax requirements in certain particular cases, so I interpret that as "Rules are submitted to umpires interpretation").
Second, it is always possible to argue (ball is partly visible then people would say it is not when other would say yes but not completely...) especially about serves.

Regional (I mean local level) umpire in my club has explained to me his manner to enforce rules : as long as the player in fault gains no advantage of doing so, he got no penalty point.

About Xu Xin's serve, I can state without hesitation that it is borderline. I would say some are legal other perhaps less... well... as long as Umpries are so afraid to judge such issues at national level, it is difficult to say. I do not cast any vote, neutral option not found.

Last note : I do not know well all top players way of thinking but I would certainly not complain about an opponent's serve. That's Umpires' job, not mine. I do not want to seem complaining or needing such points to achieve victory. My father always said : Only losers complain.

Even if its not hidden from the opponents point of view, it surely isn't nearly vertical.