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that's why when Xu Xin vs Timo, the ref called a fault for Xu giving one point to Timo, still Xu is too good for everyone
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i think bFeee's right. look at timo's position at the second scenario part3. its impossible that he cant see the serve :S.
you can turn the sides of the players to see it clearier.
micheal maze throws the ball backward very much.
what do you think ?
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someone clicked on illegal without leaving any comments 
thats way too strange and i dont like it xD !!!!
thats way too strange and i dont like it xD !!!!
xu throws back sooo obviuos and very very often. ai fukuhara throws the ball 1 meter upward in absolutelly verticall direction..so does vladi samsonov
in my club there are few 50+ years old guys who abuse that rule every time they serve. its stupid when a better player than you acts like a cheater
p.s. i think that when you throw the ball back its easier to produce spinny serve than the case you hit free falling ball
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the person of your picture. how does he serve ? i like michael maze very
nice style etc. and his serves are unbelievible. special: throwing backward like no ones xD ;DMy opinion: I think timo boll can see the service perfectly, but ma long cant because he is right handed. But in both situations its illegal. From the moment the ball is hidden, its illegal. This is for almost every chinese player btw. Look at wang liqin his serve. He hides the ball with his left arm. Ma lin probably doesnt throw the ball high enough.
The only 2 players that serve legal are timo boll and samsonov. They throw the ball enough, and they hit the ball in front of their body.
The only 2 players that serve legal are timo boll and samsonov. They throw the ball enough, and they hit the ball in front of their body.
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I know this is isolated, but from Timo's position in those photographs, he probably could see the ball. Xu Xin does make an effort to clear the arm atleast, though the ball is obscured by his body. This is nothing like with Tiago Apolonia, when Tiago deliberately left his tossing hand in front for an extended period of time.
Yeah, but what is important is that almost everyone throws it back. Just about every one of Boll's serves, he throws it back a little. It just depends on how much.
You saying those 50+ year olds are abusing the rule, is kind of circular logic.... They aren't abusing the rule, if its not abuse. A good player takes advantage of all that they can within the rule, the fact that you choose not to, is your own decision.
Also, in regards to your p.s. it's basic physics, regardless of whether you throw it straight up, or throw it back, you aren't imparting really any spin on the ball at all. The whole point of forcing all players to throw the ball from a position where the ball is sitting on their open palm is so that they can't flick their wrist or anything and impart the ball with a spin on its own. When you simply throw it up, the ball has no spin whatsoever, regardless of whether its going straight up or a little back
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I__jJDdECZs
you should watch this video. It's a good camera angle. Wang Liqin's serve isn't even close to illegal in my opinion
the first serve he does at 52 seconds. His back is almost facing saive. When the ball drops you can see it goes down behind his shoulder which is not allowed. You have to be able to see the ball at all time I thought, I might be wrong tho.
What I meant with my first post was that you can really see the difference between wang liqin and vladimir samsonov. Samsonov throws the ball and immediately removes his arm and wang liqin removes it after he hits the ball, so you cant really see what spin is on the ball. But again I might be wrong.
Just some thoughts and observations.
XX's serves look better to the camera angle when he is serving on the near side of the table.
In a typical right hander against right hander scenario, the receiver normally stands at the far left of his table.
In a typical right hander against left hander scenario, when the left hander serves on the right side of his table, the right handed receiver will normally still stand in the left half of his table, BUT not as far left as in the previous scenario. This says (1) 'hidden-ess' is a relative matter, relative to the position of the receiver; (2) the receiver can do something to enhance his view of the serve. This makes it hard for the officials to judge if a serve is hidden from the receiver. Even if a serve is relatively common, it is possible for it to be difficult to be seen if the receiver stands at the wrong place.
Now check out where Wang Hao stood to receive XX's serves. He was standing mostly in the middle of the table. A few times he might even be slightly on the right side. This special treatment seems to be evidence that XX's serves are something different.
Lastly, Boll being a left hander, where he stood to receive XX serves, he should have a good view.
XX's serves look better to the camera angle when he is serving on the near side of the table.
In a typical right hander against right hander scenario, the receiver normally stands at the far left of his table.
In a typical right hander against left hander scenario, when the left hander serves on the right side of his table, the right handed receiver will normally still stand in the left half of his table, BUT not as far left as in the previous scenario. This says (1) 'hidden-ess' is a relative matter, relative to the position of the receiver; (2) the receiver can do something to enhance his view of the serve. This makes it hard for the officials to judge if a serve is hidden from the receiver. Even if a serve is relatively common, it is possible for it to be difficult to be seen if the receiver stands at the wrong place.
Now check out where Wang Hao stood to receive XX's serves. He was standing mostly in the middle of the table. A few times he might even be slightly on the right side. This special treatment seems to be evidence that XX's serves are something different.
Lastly, Boll being a left hander, where he stood to receive XX serves, he should have a good view.
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This is a very good angle to see Xuxin's serves, they are from the English Open, and I think he is putting extra effort to keep them as legal as possible since they were being quite strict with the serve rule in that tournament:
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooot illegal.
He's been serving like this the entire time ._. only reason it is said to be illegal is cuz you guys don't think he could beat timo or ma long 4-0
It's visible to ma and timo but not to the audience because we're viewing from an upside angle.
He's been serving like this the entire time ._. only reason it is said to be illegal is cuz you guys don't think he could beat timo or ma long 4-0
It's visible to ma and timo but not to the audience because we're viewing from an upside angle.
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Scylla, I'm surprised you say that, because I think most would agree that you're the most intelligent poster on here. However, the ball travels about 2 feet backward, and Xu Xin's shoulder completely obstructs the view of the receiver. Timo is a great serve returner, and if he could see the contact point of this serve, it is not a difficult one to return. Timo isn't one to complain, and Ma Long couldn't call illegal serves on another Chinese player. I think all the professional players should be held to the highest standard of the rules.
I think the umpires didn't have the spine to call it on the important points, and that is why he was not called. This is the motion where he serves from at the crucial points of the match, and is definitely illegal. All of his other serves are legal however.
I think the umpires didn't have the spine to call it on the important points, and that is why he was not called. This is the motion where he serves from at the crucial points of the match, and is definitely illegal. All of his other serves are legal however.
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Looks like legal.. But Timo can object if the serve looks illegal. If the opponent and umpire feel that the serve is correct then we cannot simply debate over it !!
If Timo Boll can see the ball from one corner n not from another corner then according to rule book its quite LEGAL. The rule book does not specify any table position. If the opponent wants to see the ball then he has to move to another corner.. Seems like a game strategy!
So if Timo can see the ball from one side n not another side then its a risk Taken by Timo.. Xu can serve in any position as long as Ball can be seen from one side of the table !!
!! If Timo Boll can see the ball from one corner n not from another corner then according to rule book its quite LEGAL. The rule book does not specify any table position. If the opponent wants to see the ball then he has to move to another corner.. Seems like a game strategy!
So if Timo can see the ball from one side n not another side then its a risk Taken by Timo.. Xu can serve in any position as long as Ball can be seen from one side of the table
!!
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None of the pro players will complain to someone's serve. Nobody has ever done that before and it just shows you are not a pro if you do that, if you know what I mean. The referee's didnt call it because a referee is there to put the match to a good ending, they are there to count the points, call lets and thats it. They shouldnt be there to interrupt the game, so they dont call as many illegal serves as they should. There is one thing I know, if I was a referee, many serves would be illegal. And XX's serve was probably the most illegal of that tournament and I'm not a boll fan or something like that so I'm not saying this because boll lost.
off topic: if you watch the match par gerell vs schlager. You can see gerell is serving most of the time illegal, but not as much as xu xin and its the same serve. But where do you draw the line when a serve is illegal or not. For me its ok if you throw the ball a little bit backwards but you cant hide it with anything. Xu xin is throwing the ball almost horizontal and even a blind person can see he is hiding it with his shoulder/body.
off topic: if you watch the match par gerell vs schlager. You can see gerell is serving most of the time illegal, but not as much as xu xin and its the same serve. But where do you draw the line when a serve is illegal or not. For me its ok if you throw the ball a little bit backwards but you cant hide it with anything. Xu xin is throwing the ball almost horizontal and even a blind person can see he is hiding it with his shoulder/body.
haha wow.... I didn't realize my posts were looked in such positive light, well thank you. All I am saying is that its quite easy to pop the ball up from your palm and instill absolutely no spin to it even if you throw it back several feet. Especially when you consider the fact that professional serves are measured in the 100+ rotations per second. Even if by throwing it back a little it does rotate a little, its insignificant.
I can see where some people might complain in the case of the Ma Long match, because Ma Long is right handed. But for Boll, because they are both left handed players, they are standing completely diagonal from each other, and therefore I think Boll should have a perfectly fine view Xu Xin's serve.
Chinese players put so much wrist movement into their serves, and the movement is so fast, that even when you see the contact point, it can be hard to return. I have always felt that while Chinese players go to the limits of what is legal and illegal, they always allowed the opponent to see the moment the ball contacts the paddle. Ma Lin may remove his hand slowly, or have his body partially covering the ball at time he throws it up, but he always times it perfectly so that when the ball hits the paddle its in view of the opponent.
I mean how do you know Timo isn't one to complain. He is very humble, gracious, and seems like an all around nice guy, but that he was definitely getting frustrated towards the end of the match because he was getting pulverized. But even if he wasn't, if it was a close game, and Xu Xin honestly was breaking the rules, I don't see any reason why he would be reluctant to call someone out on breaking the rule. Someone who breaks a rule should be called out upon. That's not bad etiquette that's just following the rules.
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I just think the if the ittf is going to make a point to take away hiding the contact of serves, the professionals are the ones who should be held to the highest standards. I have seen little kids get called on illegal serves who probably can't help it. Professionals have enough services in their arsenal to know if the serve they are doing is illegal, then they should probably stay away from that serve for the rest of that match.
The players job isn't to enforce the rules...that is the sole duty of the umpire. Why have certified umpires if they're not their to enforce rules? Why would the ittf have the rule in the first place if they're not going to enforce it at the highest level.
The qatar open is not life or death. That is the place they should enforce it the most to let players know that illegal serves will be called, so don't bring those illegal serves to the world championships or you will be called. If they don't call them on the ittf pro tour, then it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to call them at the world championships either, because you need consistency throughout the officiating so the players can just focus on their play instead of rules.
The players job isn't to enforce the rules...that is the sole duty of the umpire. Why have certified umpires if they're not their to enforce rules? Why would the ittf have the rule in the first place if they're not going to enforce it at the highest level.
The qatar open is not life or death. That is the place they should enforce it the most to let players know that illegal serves will be called, so don't bring those illegal serves to the world championships or you will be called. If they don't call them on the ittf pro tour, then it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to call them at the world championships either, because you need consistency throughout the officiating so the players can just focus on their play instead of rules.
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