Xu Xin illegal Serve in Detail

Dear freinds.

In my point of view, Xuxin tossed backward and tried to increase ball impact. but this is obviously illegal.

Puma said:

Well...

About the rules, I just wanted to say two things :
First, rules are more guidelines than enforceable laws 'stricto sensu' (it is said that umpires can relax requirements in certain particular cases, so I interpret that as "Rules are submitted to umpires interpretation").
Second, it is always possible to argue (ball is partly visible then people would say it is not when other would say yes but not completely...) especially about serves.

Regional (I mean local level) umpire in my club has explained to me his manner to enforce rules : as long as the player in fault gains no advantage of doing so, he got no penalty point.

About Xu Xin's serve, I can state without hesitation that it is borderline. I would say some are legal other perhaps less... well... as long as Umpries are so afraid to judge such issues at national level, it is difficult to say. I do not cast any vote, neutral option not found.

Last note : I do not know well all top players way of thinking but I would certainly not complain about an opponent's serve. That's Umpires' job, not mine. I do not want to seem complaining or needing such points to achieve victory. My father always said : Only losers complain.

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If you play vs someone with a very decent serve and he hides it like xu xin, and your returns keep popping up or going in the net because you cant see the ball, you should complain and thats not a loser thing at all. Tabletennis is about making points not by hiding the serve so you cant see what spin is on the ball tbh.

I think his serves are mostly legal, but sometimes an illegal one finds its way in there. It could be accidental, but I doubt it and the Chinese coaches and players should know better. They are the best in the world by far. Why do they need to use illegal serves too? They know they can beat everyone normally, especially xu xin who's never lost to timo boll, so what's the point?

I think it's illegal. But why is it that timo and ma long are not complaining about this if it is?maybe timo and ma long can see the ball clearly from there position. So they just let the game continue.

xu xin serve can't be illegal... if it is illegal then why is it that some other players to it as will...? not only xu xin serves like that...

penholder's advocate said:

Dear freinds.

In my point of view, Xuxin tossed backward and tried to increase ball impact. but this is obviously illegal.

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I would say exactly the same

for the people who's playing right handed its very difficult to see the ball. but for the guys who's left handed they have a clear view on the ball.

He can make the serve really spinny that way.

Interesting thread...

Astrotaz said:

Here are the Rules directly from the Offical Laws book

2.6.4 From the start of service until it is struck, the ball shall be above the level of the playing surface and behind the server's end line, and it shall not be hidden 2: The Laws of Table Tennis
Page 26 Handbook 2010-2011
from the receiver by the server or his doubles partner or by anything they
wear or carry.

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I think before we can determine if Xu Xin's serve is illegal, we need to have this defined: "And it shall not be hidden"

Hidden from what? The opponent? What if the opponent can see it, but an ump can't?

Xu Xin's arm is definitely not hiding anything, it's his body.

I assume that Timo can see the ball even though the camera can't.. but not too sure.

ITTF Handbook said:

2.06.02 The server shall then project the ball near vertically upwards, without imparting spin, so that it rises at least 16cm after leaving the palm of the free hand and then falls without touching anything before being struck.

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That's not, what Xu Xin was doing here. He throw the ball right into his body and not vertically upwards !

Well yes it is illegal but:
1) It is up to the umpires to point it out if they think it gives Xu an unfair advantage.
2) I'm sure his opposition would point it out if he thinks it was an illegal serve.

So really there is nothing to complain about unless you hear it from the Umpire or his Opponent.

malong1 said:

I think before we can determine if Xu Xin's serve is illegal, we need to have this defined: "And it shall not be hidden"

Hidden from what? The opponent? What if the opponent can see it, but an ump can't?

Xu Xin's arm is definitely not hiding anything, it's his body.

I assume that Timo can see the ball even though the camera can't.. but not too sure.

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His arm is maybe not hiding the ball but his body is like you said yourself so he is hiding it? doesnt really matter how you hide it. If I manage to hide the ball with my left foot im sure it will be illegal.

You assume that timo can see the ball, but obviously he cant always see the ball because the ball is popping up very high sometimes.

I know.. what I meant was, can Xu's serve appear "not hidden" to an umpire, but to his opponent it is hidden?

And the reverse can his serve be "not hidden" to the opponent, but to an umpire it appears hidden?

Also, if Timo can't see it at all times, why doesn't he complain? I sure would, if I'm playing at the Pro level...

In Quatar, in the match with Timo, in the finals, right at the beginning, a let is called and Xu Xin is warned about his serve. In his second round of serves, he is faulted and a point is taken from him. After that the umpire of the match leaves Xu Xin alone even though he does not really change much about how he is serving. The announcers make a big deal about how he is throwing the ball, which is part of how he is hiding the ball, but, he is hiding the ball. There are places you can see that he is not. And places you can see that he is. And if you look at Timo while he Xu is serving, there are places where he is looking as though he is trying to see around a corner.

The umpire called two of Xu's serves illegal--a warning and a fault--but did not do much when it counted in the match to change the flow of the match. Those serves are illegal on many counts. They are hidden, the toss is not going even close to straight up. He might not even be presenting the ball before the toss some of the time:I think he sometimes cups his fingers around the ball when getting ready to toss and sometimes he has his wrist in between himself and the opponent hiding the ball. And with that, when he is on the far side of the table, if the camera cannot see the ball before he tosses it, then the player definitely cannot because the camera is higher than the player. He does not do that all the time, but sometimes before he tosses, it looks like the serve might already be illegal because of how he is holding the ball and not showing it.

By the way, I want to go on record saying, despite what I said about his serve above, I love the way Xu Xin plays. I love watching him play.

i think some of his serves are illegal.but i think its the umpires fault for not calling all the illegal serves being played.nevertheless xu xin is great!

tell me whose forehand serve here is legal? Whose service has vertical throw? ppl needa use ur brain, if u throw higher, then the curve is less. wt rules do u wanna set? difference between the throwing point n hitting point?

waldner, Michael Maze, Ma Long, Schlagar, Samsonov, Kong Linghui...

STOP BEING IGNORANT, ittf can define legal or not however they want it. it's just a definition, lets say the definition is like the ones wt u guys mentioned. no vertical toss. then everyone has illegal services.

the important thing is not the legal or illegal services
the important thing is tat xuxin has NOT CHEATED <=== tat's the point
n actually he has been cheated by ittf, because ittf only punished xuxin, but not MAZE, SCHLAGAR, SAMSONOV.. ive seen them punishing Ma Long and Zhang jike, dunno if i missed any.

but u see the trend. it's ITTF CHEATING by not enforcing the rule on everyone (being unfair) xuxin has NOT CHEATED just a normal player.

plssss, stopppp being ignorant.... thanks

scylla24 said:

Everyone throws it back a little. And as long as you throw it up from your palm, its really hard to get any spin.

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but to get the spin you need a lot of wrist,the throw doesnt matter,but when you throw it higher then you get a little more spin.Xu is one of my favourite players but his serve there IS ILLEGAL because the throw is vertical and by the rules that is FORBIDDEN.

markog99 said:

but to get the spin you need a lot of wrist,the throw doesnt matter,but when you throw it higher then you get a little more spin.Xu is one of my favourite players but his serve there IS ILLEGAL because the throw is vertical and by the rules that is FORBIDDEN.

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I don't get what you are saying.... you seem to be saying that it is forbidden because the throw is vertical? If that is what you are saying, then I think you are missing what I was saying, and just don't get what the rule says in general. The rules say the throw should be mostly vertical. There is nothing wrong with throwing it as high as you want.... it is not forbidden, unlike what you have stated. Some times Ma Lin and Ai Fukahara throw it up more than 10 feet in the air. There is nothing wrong with that, and it can help add some spin to the serve, though really I bet the added spin is negligible.

Super Chopper said:

I think his serves are mostly legal, but sometimes an illegal one finds its way in there. It could be accidental, but I doubt it and the Chinese coaches and players should know better. They are the best in the world by far. Why do they need to use illegal serves too? They know they can beat everyone normally, especially xu xin who's never lost to timo boll, so what's the point?

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The Chinese coaches should know better? I don't agree with that. The Chinese players train the most of any country, and they put a lot of work on their serves, and its why they are able to walk the line between what is legal and what is not the best, and why they have generally the best serves in the world. To follow your argument, they should dumb down their play, just because they already are better, sounds like a pretty flimsy reason to me. You want to be the best player you can be, and that means taking into account everything, and improving every aspect of your game to its utmost, and the serve is no exception.