Blade between OSP Expert II/Virtuoso Off-

[omelet]

Any recommendations?

I find Expert II too flexy and Virtuoso Off- too hard and stiff and drive/smash oriented, though the crispness on backhand with H3 37 is super nice. No carbon please.

I am trying to learn how to loop-drive and Virtuoso feels more stable for that but otherwise, I feel like I am cheating on other shots. I can get away with just wrist/forearm strokes too easily.

For me, Expert II feels similar to Stiga Allround Evolution and Virtuoso is (controversially) as fast as Innerforce ALC.

Video of me playing:
Sorta Loop-Drive/Footwork Practice
BH Loop against LP



Thanks.

 

[vvk1]

You are imagining stuff. Just pick whichever handle feels more comfortable and stick with it for a year or two.

 

[Scarfed Garchomp]

Xiom Fuga (similar to Avalox P500) for koto outer, Gewo Zoom Pro (in between Butterfly Korbel and Primo off-) for limba outer. Both slower and more flexible than Xiom Offensive S (from reviews seems to be a bit faster and stiffer than Virtuoso). But I have also found weight plays a big role in the feeling and performance of these 5pw blades, ex my 93g Stratus Powerwood is noticeably denser and more solid than my 86g sample.

 

[omelet]

You are imagining stuff. Just pick whichever handle feels more comfortable and stick with it for a year or two.

Thanks. Good advice for sure.

Do you care to expand on your experience with blades and feeling?

I started with Stiga ARC for a year, then 6 months of Virtuoso Off-, found it too stiff and hard, then 6 months with Stiga Allround Evo (which is just a little faster than Stiga ARC).

Wanting something with a bit more speed. Did not find that in the Expert II.

Interestingly, I tried a club-mates Harimoto ALC and it is slightly less crisp that Virtuoso Off- but has this holding/grabbing feeling almost as much as Expert II/Stiga Allround Evolution on soft or hard-drive loops.
I guess I like that super-grabby long-dwell feel but without the instability on loop-drives like Stiga Allround Evo/Expert II. Another club-mates plain Innerforce ALC felt like playing with a steel plate though.

 

[vvk1]

Thanks. Good advice for sure.

Do you care to expand on your experience with blades and feeling?

I started with Stiga ARC for a year, then 6 months of Virtuoso Off-, found it too stiff and hard, then 6 months with Stiga Allround Evo (which is just a little faster than Stiga ARC).

Wanting something with a bit more speed. Did not find that in the Expert II.

Interestingly, I tried a club-mates Harimoto ALC and it is slightly less crisp that Virtuoso Off- but has this holding/grabbing feeling almost as much as Expert II/Stiga Allround Evolution on soft or hard-drive loops.
I guess I like that super-grabby long-dwell feel but without the instability on loop-drives like Stiga Allround Evo/Expert II. Another club-mates plain Innerforce ALC felt like playing with a steel plate though.

I still own an OSP Expert and played for almost 2 years with the Virtuoso Off- before moving on to carbon blades. Obviously, Virtuoso is faster and a tad stiffer than Expert but the differences between them (assuming the same head shape) are tiny. I would certainly not describe Virtuoso Off- as "drive/smash oriented". Both blades support a wide variety of playing styles.

 

[omelet]

I still own an OSP Expert and played for almost 2 years with the Virtuoso Off- before moving on to carbon blades. Obviously, Virtuoso is faster and a tad stiffer than Expert but the differences between them (assuming the same head shape) are tiny. I would certainly not describe Virtuoso Off- as "drive/smash oriented". Both blades support a wide variety of playing styles.

Thanks for the reply.

Yeah, I did not mean to suggest Virtuoso cannot be used for looping or anything. Its great for loop-drives and is super accurate/point and shoot feeling, but I was hoping there was something between the Expert (Which I do think is unstable on loop-drives: reference the video I included in first post: though of course my technique is far from perfect) and Virtuoso.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Omelet, what is the weight of the Expert II? What is the weight of the Virtuoso Off-?

Maybe you want a lighter version of the V- ? Maybe you want a slightly heavier E II ?

 

[omelet]

Omelet, what is the weight of the Expert II? What is the weight of the Virtuoso Off-?

Maybe you want a lighter version of the V- ? Maybe you want a slightly heavier E II ?

Thanks. Both are exactly 85 grams.

Any recommendations? I am new and you seem knowledgeable from your other posts.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Thanks. Both are exactly 85 grams.

Any recommendations? I am new and you seem knowledgeable from your other posts.

I think vvk1 is making good, solid points and I agree with all that he wrote in each post. I have not tried the specific Expert or the specific Virtuoso that you have used. So I don't know if there is some reason you feel them as differently as you do. But if you chose either and used it for a decent amount of time, either would end up being fine for you.

As long as equipment is somewhere in the right ballpark for you, (not wildly too fast, too slow or too uncontrollable) the real issue would be sticking with one thing for long enough to really develop with that equipment. So, theoretically you could choose either and use it for the next 6 months and see how you do things with the setup then: in other words, choose one, play for long enough so you have grooved you technique very thoroughly with it, and revisit the issue to see if you still feel you need something different.

Often on the forums people make too much out of the "importance" of the equipment. Both blades are good blades for developing. Both blades are all wood. Both blades are on the softer and more flexible side of things.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Interestingly, I tried a club-mates Harimoto ALC and it is slightly less crisp that Virtuoso Off- but has this holding/grabbing feeling almost as much as Expert II/Stiga Allround Evolution on soft or hard-drive loops.
I guess I like that super-grabby long-dwell feel but without the instability on loop-drives like Stiga Allround Evo/Expert II. Another club-mates plain Innerforce ALC felt like playing with a steel plate though.

I doubt the difference in feeling between the two blades is a universal thing but Inner/ALC blades are not really super fast and with today's 40+ Poly ball, the Harimoto blade that felt like it really grabbed the ball might be a good choice for you even though you said you don't want a composite layer.

Another thing to try might be a Primorac Off- (the 5 ply all wood blade). It is a lot like many of Butterfly's Inner/ALC blades without the ALC layer. If you test one and you feel that quality where it feels like you are really grabbing the ball go for it.

And if you find an Inner/ALC that has that, it should be fine as well.

Based on the footage, I think you would be fine with either. But I also think you should be fine with the Virtuoso.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

The Butterfly Inner/ALC blades that have this construction: Limba-Limba-ALC-Kiri (or Ayous)-ALC-Limba-Limba

Play very similar to the Primorac Off- : Limba-Limba-Ayous-Limba-Limba

And the Petr Korbel: Limba-Limba-Ayous-Limba-Limba

The thing with the Inner/ALC blades is, on softer touch shots and control shots, they play pretty much just like the two all wood blades above. You only start having the impact of the ALC layer when you make deeper contact and put more bang-impact into the ball on bigger shots.

So, it would kind of be like using one of those blades above but having extra gears for when you need to take bigger shots. And, again, if it has that quality where you really feel the ball being grabbed, that is a blade worth using.

But I want to make sure you understand, just because your friend's Harimoto ALC has that, does not mean that if you get one, it will play just the same way your friend's does. Try a few of them and see if you feel that in all of them. It is worth testing. But if you find one that feels that way that you can buy, you may as well get it.

 

[omelet]

The Butterfly Inner/ALC blades that have this construction: Limba-Limba-ALC-Kiri (or Ayous)-ALC-Limba-Limba

Play very similar to the Primorac Off- : Limba-Limba-Ayous-Limba-Limba

And the Petr Korbel: Limba-Limba-Ayous-Limba-Limba

The thing with the Inner/ALC blades is, on softer touch shots and control shots, they play pretty much just like the two all wood blades above. You only start having the impact of the ALC layer when you make deeper contact and put more bang-impact into the ball on bigger shots.

So, it would kind of be like using one of those blades above but having extra gears for when you need to take bigger shots. And, again, if it has that quality where you really feel the ball being grabbed, that is a blade worth using.

But I want to make sure you understand, just because your friend's Harimoto ALC has that, does not mean that if you get one, it will play just the same way your friend's does. Try a few of them and see if you feel that in all of them. It is worth testing. But if you find one that feels that way that you can buy, you may as well get it.

Hey Carl,

If I could pick your brains for a second...(I really appreciate everything you share here. I used to read your posts before I joined this forum...Also these questions are coming from only having played ~2 years and not experimented with lots of equipment)

I played more with all my blades + a friends DHS Long 5 and I had questions/thoughts for you:

1) It seems Expert II has this middle gear that is easily accessible that allows very easy and safe looping from any distance. But this middle gear irritates me as control and predictability suffers a bit. Is it because of the middle Spruce layer? It looks very much like the Stiga Offensive Classic middle layer (stripped).

2) I am starting to wonder about limba vs ayous vs spruce in the middle layers cause it seems that L-A-A-A-A-L like Stiga ARClassic and AREvolution feel like CVT transmissions. That is, there are no gears. Just smooth linear range throughout. Long 5 also feels similar to Stiga AREvo until I hit really hard and access the Carbon layer, a CVT transmission with an Overdrive button.

The OSP V- is also very linear but it does have the middle gear but not as annoyingly jumpy as Expert II. I wonder if the Limba middle gear vs Ayous (of AREvo) makes it so? Seems this article confirm my hand-feeling [https://www.sdcttblades.com/nerdy-stuff/limba-vs-ayous-in-the-second-layer]

I know they are all different blades but I feel like the middle layer is very easy to feel and V- vs Expert vs AREvo are distinctly so because of the different middle layers?

I also dont want to move to carbon yet cause I still have the problem of hitting wrongly in the 5mm lower center area of the blade cause I am rushing. When I do hit Center to Tip, there is so much more power/directness/speed and safety. With Carbon, I cannot really feel where I hit the ball much.

Some might consider the AREvo soft and a bit dull but I love the dwell and loading up feeling. Video is from yesterday with Stiga ArEvo and H3 forehand. I know there is a lot of work still required on my technique but the safety with H3 and Stiga AREvo is crazy good. Also for some reason mine measures 5.6mm rather than 5.4 as stated in other sites. Perhap thats why its a little more stable than Expert but less so than V- on loop-drives : [

]

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

If you like the Stiga Allround Evolution, use it. That is a nice blade.