Chinese national team players and their rubbers.

[scoops]

Hello all, this is just a little something I have been thinking a while and just wondered what you all think.

Is it fair that all Euro rubbers are numbered by the ITTF and anyone including the China team can buy them, use them, study them etc.
I know the national players get the best of the best sheets of rubber but the Chinese team is a whole different story.
i know Chinese team use Hurricane 3 (ITTF 24-108) but then they have different sponge to what we the commercial users get and even the professionals say they can't get hold of this super tuned hurricane 3. Wouldn't China kick off if they were losing all their matches to a euro team and that said team had a Tenergy 05 rubber (ITTF 14-001) but it had a 'special' blue sponge that nobody else could get a hold of???
Surely these rubbers with ittf numbers should all be the same, except the thickness which obviously changes, but surely hurricane 3 blue sponge (not the so called National we can get) but 'THE' national should be a whole different entity that any player should be able to buy? I have tried the so called national rubbers and the ones with chinese national team players names on them and I would say these are not much (if any) better than a boosted H3 from a legit shop.

I know the Chinese team put in endless hours of training and it shows in their desire (and belief) to win every point but how do you all feel about them being able to use rubbers like this, obviously to their advantage?



What are your views on this people?????

 

[Shuki]

If your country spends a lot of time investing in the creation of a rubber, I believe that country gets to decide what they do with the rubber. They can share it for profit or keep it to themselves for an advantage.

Look at when the japanese were the first to use sponge on their raquets. All they said was they had a secret weapon. They didn't share this publicly until they had to.

 

[scoops]

No, I get that but then the rubber shouldn't be classed as hurricane 3 as it clearly is not a regular hurricane 3. Some good rubbers out there that are not classified by ittf, so in tournaments you can't use them. What I am saying is these rubbers are not regular hurricane 3 shouldn't be classed as. What is the point in ittf classification then as anyone can stick their own sponge on any rubber as long as it has a itt number then yes?

 

[kukamonga]

the ittf numbers are for the topsheet I believe, not for the sponge.
this is why hurricane 3 blue sponge and orange sponge have the same number.

as for the magical national blue sponge h3 I think this is all a lie.
there is no magical rubber.
it's all about the booster.
this is what turns any h3 into something better than tenergy.
if you take out the booster, all national, provincial, blue sponge, orange sponge h3 are not better than any other 15 dollar chinese rubber.

this is why personally I believe buying national h3 rubbers is foolish, because you are wasting your money.
just buy a regular h3, boost it very hard, and you will have something superior to a new tenergy.

 

[scoops]

so why blue sponge then, why not boost normal H3? I just said above ittf is for topsheet. So can tenergy give Timo Boll an 05 topsheet with a totally different sponge that is "legally" boosted and nobody can say anything?

Why can nobody, not even pro players get there hands on H3 national? I don't believe it is booster. Just like haifu speed glue no different than using bicycle inner tube glue. No secret is the booster

 

[Shuki]

So can tenergy give Timo Boll an 05 topsheet with a totally different sponge that is "legally" boosted and nobody can say anything?

Correct. People can say something but they didn't do anything wrong.

 

[NDH]

I agree to a point.

However, my main issue would be in the misconception that the retail version is what the players are actually using.

That being said, if the CNT have developed techniques to improve their equipment, then good for them. It's up to the other nations to improve what they can offer!

Look at Forumla 1 - Mercedes have the edge over the field due to their superior R&D - It's up to the other teams to catch up!

 

[Ilia Minkin]

but how do you all feel about them being able to use rubbers like this, obviously to their advantage?

I think that it is a terrible situation.

 

[Shuki]

The thing is the chinese weren't trying to market their equipment in a way that makes it seem like the commercial version is the same. They changed the color of the sponge even to make it look different. are you mad at them for not just saying "this is a mystery rubber"?

 

[kukamonga]

blue sponge h3 has been around for ages, and it's the same thing as orange.
probably reacts a bit more to booster but that's all.
the chinese haven't developed any magical formula, the h3 ma long is using today is essentially the same that wang liqin or kong linghui used 20 years ago.

 

[ttmonster]

Your point is valid but the premise is not , table tennis and formula one are different sports. Formula One is more geared about technical advance , its like who can make the best care within the specifications and find a driver to help improve the performance and beat others. You can compare that to horse racing but I don't think its valid to compare it to a racquet sport. In table tennis the onus is on the skill and athleticism of the player and not just a competition to build the best paddle/rubber . If that was the case then the World Table tennis championship should be contested by Butterfly, DHS , Tibhar etc. teams not Japan, China, Germany

I agree to a point.

However, my main issue would be in the misconception that the retail version is what the players are actually using.

That being said, if the CNT have developed techniques to improve their equipment, then good for them. It's up to the other nations to improve what they can offer!

Look at Forumla 1 - Mercedes have the edge over the field due to their superior R&D - It's up to the other teams to catch up!

 

[NDH]

Your point is valid but the premise is not , table tennis and formula one are different sports. Formula One is more geared about technical advance , its like who can make the best care within the specifications and find a driver to help improve the performance and beat others. You can compare that to horse racing but I don't think its valid to compare it to a racquet sport. In table tennis the onus is on the skill and athleticism of the player and not just a competition to build the best paddle/rubber . If that was the case then the World Table tennis championship should be contested by Butterfly, DHS , Tibhar etc. teams not Japan, China, Germany

I understand what you are saying, but I'm not sure I'd completely agree.

If it's purely about the athlete, why have different brands, rubbers, blades etc? If a player paid millions to invent a new technology which gave him the edge, does that make it better because it wasn't a big sponsored deal?

i'm not saying I agree what what happens, but in all sport, no matter what it is, people look for an advantage in any equipment they use, no matter how big or small it may seem.

That being said, I'd love to see the top 10 in the world play a tournament with the same bat set up (and no, the world ping pong championships don't count!)

 

[Shuki]

You see, if the European teams had superior equipment but were still getting recked by the chinese, I don't see the chinese complaining about their equipment.

Dima and Timo both say the chinese rubber is better but how can we take their word on this? Maybe the chinese are just so much better at the sport that they could do the same with tenergy. Maybe the europeans actually have better rubber but they're outclasses by the chinese. Maybe all of this is true, maybe none of it is. Pure speculations every direction.

 

[scoops]

That i guess it what I am getting at, very boring all using the same bats like ping pong championships butould it be classed as an H3 rubber if it has different sponge. Agreed that until euro players and their countries start investing in training national players like the chinese do then everyone will always be behind them regardless of equipment.

I am just trying to say should it be more transparent in that every other rubber has a classification, so shouldn't they?especially if (as pro players say) it gives them such an advantage.

 

[Shuki]

That i guess it what I am getting at, very boring all using the same bats like ping pong championships butould it be classed as an H3 rubber if it has different sponge. Agreed that until euro players and their countries start investing in training national players like the chinese do then everyone will always be behind them regardless of equipment.

I am just trying to say should it be more transparent in that every other rubber has a classification, so shouldn't they?especially if (as pro players say) it gives them such an advantage.

I don't think it's an issue, the color of the sponge tells players that they have something different, why do they have to go around telling people, "I have a special sponge", when all someone has to do is look at their paddle from a distance to see that.

There are other rubbers like this. Grip-S has various different colored sponges ranging from purple, red, pink and theres one other I don't remember. Samsonov used Grip-S for a short period but didn't openly advertise what kind of sponge he had on it.

 

[scoops]

I am losing the will to live, I am not bothered if it is pink sponge, green, blue, white. Should a rubber like, not solely, but like H3 national blue sponge be numbered with the same ittf i.d as a commercial H3 when clearly it is not. Shouldn't they be recognised as H3national and have a different number? Should they also be available to everyone as the Tenergy are?(again and example, could be any rubber) The sport has come a long way and since Japan first started using inverted and it kinda like a national team using a new ball for matches they play but having no markings that only they can get, this is an advantage. I guess also linking to the booster issue and speed glue, should it be more transparent and honest and then speculations about such matters wouldn't arise. People would also stop paying stupid money for what is clearly fake!!!

 

[Shuki]

I am losing the will to live, I am not bothered if it is pink sponge, green, blue, white. Should a rubber like, not solely, but like H3 national blue sponge be numbered with the same ittf i.d as a commercial H3 when clearly it is not. Shouldn't they be recognised as H3national and have a different number? Should they also be available to everyone as the Tenergy are?(again and example, could be any rubber) The sport has come a long way and since Japan first started using inverted and it kinda like a national team using a new ball for matches they play but having no markings that only they can get, this is an advantage. I guess also linking to the booster issue and speed glue, should it be more transparent and honest and then speculations about such matters wouldn't arise. People would also stop paying stupid money for what is clearly fake!!!

It doesn't need to be labeled differently because it's the same topsheet. The topsheet is the only part of the rubber that needs to be verified for ittf. The only rule about the sponge is that it can't cause the topsheet to change in any way, and the thickness of the rubber all together cannot exceed 4mm. (Might not be 4mm but I think it is, sorry if I'm wrong). there is no such thing as an approved ittf sponge or even a banned sponge.

The reason that falco represented their voc-free booster as a Legal booster in stores, is because they say it doesn't alter the topsheet in any way. ITTF then had to state clearly that you cannot alter a sponge without altering the topsheet. And I feel like there's going to be an argument about "well if you can't alter the topsheet how do they get the blue one on there?" It's done in the factory, after the topsheet is made and before any sponge was applied.

 

[NDH]

It doesn't need to be labeled differently because it's the same topsheet. The topsheet is the only part of the rubber that needs to be verified for ittf. The only rule about the sponge is that it can't cause the topsheet to change in any way, and the thickness of the rubber all together cannot exceed 4mm. (Might not be 4mm but I think it is, sorry if I'm wrong). there is no such thing as an approved ittf sponge or even a banned sponge.

The reason that falco represented their voc-free booster as a Legal booster in stores, is because they say it doesn't alter the topsheet in any way. ITTF then had to state clearly that you cannot alter a sponge without altering the topsheet. And I feel like there's going to be an argument about "well if you can't alter the topsheet how do they get the blue one on there?" It's done in the factory, after the topsheet is made and before any sponge was applied.

I think what Scoops is trying to say, is, when it's all said and done, should the CNT be able to play with equipment which is not commercially available? Irrespective of if its the rubber or the sponge.

Also..... I appreciate the differences between rubber and sponge, which is why it's the same ITTF number, but if ALL the CNT are using Hurricane 3 in a certain way.... Which is VASTLY different from the commercial stuff.... Should it be rebranded and made available for everyone?

Sorry if I got that wrong Scoops!

Those arent my my thoughts by the way, just trying to translate a fellow Englishmans thoughts!

 

[Shuki]

I think what Scoops is trying to say, is, when it's all said and done, should the CNT be able to play with equipment which is not commercially available? Irrespective of if its the rubber or the sponge.

Also..... I appreciate the differences between rubber and sponge, which is why it's the same ITTF number, but if ALL the CNT are using Hurricane 3 in a certain way.... Which is VASTLY different from the commercial stuff.... Should it be rebranded and made available for everyone?

Sorry if I got that wrong Scoops!

Those arent my my thoughts by the way, just trying to translate a fellow Englishmans thoughts!

Gotcha, I believe it is fair. If the europeans want an advantage they can spend all the money and time investing in creating a new rubber the way the chinese did. And they can choose to not have it for sale to gain some advantage the way the chinese did.

The chinese chose to have an advantage instead of make a LOT of money. It was their choice since the product they're using is after all theirs. Why should the chinese be forced to share their hard earned rubber? Because some europeans are complaining that their rubber isn't fair? that was the goal in creating a new rubber, to have it be better than all the others.


On a side note, back to grip-s. When samsonov used it he had a purple sponged model which wasn't out for purchase at the time. Nobody complained about him having something unavailable to the public.

 

[RajaLoopah]

Gotcha, I believe it is fair. If the europeans want an advantage they can spend all the money and time investing in creating a new rubber the way the chinese did. And they can choose to not have it for sale to gain some advantage the way the chinese did.

The chinese chose to have an advantage instead of make a LOT of money. It was their choice since the product they're using is after all theirs. Why should the chinese be forced to share their hard earned rubber? Because some europeans are complaining that their rubber isn't fair? that was the goal in creating a new rubber, to have it be better than all the others.


On a side note, back to grip-s. When samsonov used it he had a purple sponged model which wasn't out for purchase at the time. Nobody complained about him having something unavailable to the public.

The placebo effect of getting better when you use the Hurricane National