CNT Closed Training for WTTC 2017

[ttmonster]

You made a lot of good points Carl. However, I feel in this day and age its not really "CNT" Fanboys or "CNT" Fangirls , atleast in table tennis . I think its mostly the fans are loyal to specific players. I will tell you about my personal prefrences , I only care when ZJK plays and want him to win. Even though I respect them for their skills, I don't feel bad if Ma Long or Ding Ning loses , its because I like how he has transcended the immediate culture of the country and the team and has put an individual stamp of his persona and charisma on the world scene.
But when it comes to teams, I end up supporting to dutch women's team or the english men's team , just because they were punching far above their weights in those respective tournaments and managed to express their team bonding qualities during the matches ...

I have grown up supporting Sanchez Vicario whenever she played Steffi Graf , but when it was Federer vs Nadal , I ended up supporting Federer. I did not desert him when he continued to lose those crunch points in grand slams , rather it would ruin my day when he lost but I managed to see most of his losses in semis and finals or grandslams .... but when he came through this year in Australian open after being down in the fifth , I managed to ride the "high" for days after ...

Even though we like to believe its "blind" "fan"-aticism ... especially for fans on the other side , I think the reality its just preference, either we identify with the challenger or the champion based on some thing we admire and it could be something simple as national loyalty ... some times it ends up being the favorite or sometime the challenger , especially when they manage to transcend their sport and inspire us ...

 

[rainneverever]

It is already 2017. Things have changed in the past two decades. Could you please point out when is the last time you saw a fixed game between CNT players?

There are numerous players in China who never make to CNT or fail to stay in CNT due to injuries or abilities or ages. They are still playing, representing their provinces or leagues and they can make a living out of table tennis without attending ITTF world tours. They do not have the resources of CNT players either, but some of them can beat A-team CNT players, even top ones, in national tournaments or CTTSL. Of course they cannot beat CNT players all the time, otherwise they will be recruited to CNT and sent for international tournaments. The point is that CNT players are not unstoppable although they have the best coaches and training partners, perhaps the most investments compared to other countries. In Asian Champs, top CNT players were beaten by Korean and Japanese players. Does it suggest the end of CNT dominance? Maybe. There is an old saying in China, "He who does not advance loses ground". CNT has to be stronger and cannot hope the opponents to become weaker. I think this holds true for other national teams.

Also, the stuffs of CNT closed training I posted in this thread are not something really new and fancy. 3 training sessions per day are common, multi-ball training and 1 vs 2 training are common, even the anti-noise/disturbance training are common. Liu Guoliang once asked people who did not play run around the court waving big white towels to disturb the players in the match. There were also lots of reports from journalists and fans of previous closed trainings. The only difference this time is that the reports are more visual (more videos) and spreading more quickly thanks to the internet popularity after Rio and the defeat of CNT in Asian Champs last month.

Well maybe, that in addition to everything else. Do CNT players really have a choice? Remember, that teamwork once included losing when ordered to. Teamwork requires that teams have resources, like a central training facility (or a bunch of them like in China). A lot of the world top 100 are training by playing tournaments like Croatia and Slovenia opens becaause it is their only option. Their "national team" exists for two weeks every other year. The rest of the time they are on their own.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Rain
seems like you are the new cnt guru on TTD
so tell me, how does politics play in 2017 or say past 5 years regarding player selection and "injury replacement"?

1 for starters, no one in the world would make income from world tours, so your statement there is pretty invalid.
CNT players get salary
Provincial players get salary
This is outside salary from super league, or jia a and such.

Japan has more $$$ per player than CNT
This has been the case for 2 to 3 years already

CNT has A and B
B is U18 and as early as 13 year olds

JNT start from 10 year olds

CNT A and B team imo is CNT strength but also weakness
Players who can't promote would eventually retire. 50% of them leave China and play aboard, the younger ones are the ones that fill the spot on provincial team.
Let me explain more, B team, if you are 19 years old, and you can't go to A team, you have a 50-50 chance to land up in Super League or Jia A, or go aboard
The replacements would be 15 year old.

I have a couple of friends who are only 19 years old, and they careers are pretty much over.
They could choose to stay in Jia A and wait until a younger player replace them. Which they are still holding on
Or they change careers
or they go overseas

I know lots of formal B team, and provincial teams going overseas, some of them have also obtained citizenship, and played in olympics
They got world ranking and have a better TT career than oppose to a domestic structure.

You make it seems like CNT is about teamwork
imo, it is more about military style. there is no team work, there is only up or out, fit in or leave atmosphere.
Then coaches politics from provincial team to CNT A team.
If your coach is not connected, you won't even reach CNT B team, no matter how good you are

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Regarding "There were also lots of reports from journalists and fans of previous closed trainings. The only difference this time is that the reports are more visual (more videos) and spreading more quickly thanks to the internet popularity after Rio and the defeat of CNT in Asian Champs last month."

Imo 2017 has no differences because of Rio or Asian Champs"
Everything is normal
in fact, TT hype is decreasing compared to previous years..... so not sure how you can say its spreading more quickly now...

You can just share the links of players account, cctv journalist account and every one can follow CNT, just like 5 to 10 years ago.

 

[drunix80]

Tony, one thing is for sure. China as a country has an ever growing internet reach among its population. Not sure if 5 to 10 years back they had similar internet reach as compared to now. Even facebook started only around 10 years back so not sure how many players had social media accounts 5-10 years back. Sometimes even in China we see empty seats in TT matches these days but I think this is somehow offset by increasing online streaming viewership. So I agree with Rains comment that internet popularity of TT in China is definitely on the rise but the traditional popularity might seem to be on the wane.

And regarding making money out of World Tour , if you are a CNT player, you can definitely make 200-300k USD a year which is definitely not that bad. And if you are a World Tour player from CNT, sponsorship and endorsements would definitely dwarf the actual money earned in the World Tour. So in a way if you are a World Tour level player from CNT, you are earning money directly as well as indirectly.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Tony, one thing is for sure. China as a country has an ever growing internet reach among its population. Not sure if 5 to 10 years back they had similar internet reach as compared to now. Even facebook started only around 10 years back so not sure how many players had social media accounts 5-10 years back. Sometimes even in China we see empty seats in TT matches these days but I think this is somehow offset by increasing online streaming viewership. So I agree with Rains comment that internet popularity of TT in China is definitely on the rise but the traditional popularity might seem to be on the wane.

And regarding making money out of World Tour , if you are a CNT player, you can definitely make 200-300k USD a year which is definitely not that bad. And if you are a World Tour player from CNT, sponsorship and endorsements would definitely dwarf the actual money earned in the World Tour. In a way if you are in World Tour level player from CNT, you are earning money directly as well as indirectly.

Chinese Internet is a pretty mature place already.
I don't have stats about the TT internet
But the general population of TT has reduce
Fans, players, even coaches

 

[Bollforte94]

Chinese Internet is a pretty mature place already.
I don't have stats about the TT internet
But the general population of TT has reduce
Fans, players, even coaches

You put us in a bad mood and you are not correct in all points.
Not for no reason Zhang Jike was hyped in 2016 after Rio Olympics.

 

[Baal]

Rain just made my point actually. The whole "teamwork" thing is a bit hard to buy into as some sort of noble sacrifice when it is compulsary and tbere are lots of provincial players who would kill for the job who are also full time paid professionals. Even provincial level infrastructure (people zand facilities) in China put to shame national training of most countries.

I enjoy the pictures and the videos. But nobody else in the world spends this much on their national table tennis team (and all the other teams that feed into it). That is just how it is.

I am not saying CNT players are ordered to lose now. But there was a time when it happened and it reflects a lot about the "teamwork" culture even if that stopped some time ago.

 

[rainneverever]

Tony, I don't think teamwork and internal competition are mutually exclusive. When you say military style, do you actually mean by survival of the fittest? That's natural selection.

For player selection for major tournaments, there are open trials as well as coaches' picks. Which selection do you find suspicious? Please let me know and I will try to find out the original rule for that particular selection. For "injury replacement", do you mean that Guo Yan did not go to London in 2012? Well, the unspoken rule of CNT is WTTC singles titles matter a lot for competition to attend Olympic.

And for salaries and alternative paths for Chinese players outside CNT, I brought that up because I did not fully agree Baal's point that other players struggle because they don't have CNT's resources. My point is that without the best resources, a player can perform really well and Tony's examples of Chinese player playing aboard somehow support this point. But of course, not enough to become world champion or Olympic champion nowadays. In my opinion, the success of CNT (as a team) comes from talent pool, resources, teamwork and internal competition.

As for the internet hypes of table tennis in China, no doubt CNT is the most popular team after Rio in both social media and mainstream media. CNT gets the most popular team award in Sina Weibo Awards Night, which is based on the data of search numbers, topic read times, etc. CNT also gets "You bring the charm to the world" award along with Chinese astronauts team (only two teams among the 11 awardees) selected by mainstream media (CCTV not included). And during Asian Champs, every time CNT player lost to a non-CNT player, it showed up in the top 10 hot topics in Sina Weibo.

As for this thread, I tried to choose what are relevant for WTTC prep, not everything from social media like fans saw Zhang Jike playing basketball and Ding Ning/Lin Gaoyuan/Ma Long was singing for CNT's theme song. If you find it boring, fully understand.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

You put us in a bad mood and you are not correct in all points.
Not for no reason Zhang Jike was hyped in 2016 after Rio Olympics.

fan boy bad mood alert

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Rain just made my point actually. The whole "teamwork" thing is a bit hard to buy into as some sort of noble sacrifice when it is compulsary and tbere are lots of provincial players who would kill for the job who are also full time paid professionals. Even provincial level infrastructure (people zand facilities) in China put to shame national training of most countries.

I enjoy the pictures and the videos. But nobody else in the world spends this much on their national table tennis team (and all the other teams that feed into it). That is just how it is.

I am not saying CNT players are ordered to lose now. But there was a time when it happened and it reflects a lot about the "teamwork" culture even if that stopped some time ago.

I could be wrong, but what other national team units are there in the world?
Japan maybe the closes with maybe a higher percentage on individual players development than oppose to team unit development - ie A team players are training partners for top 4 or 7 (for competition preparation)
Germany - individual player preparation
Korea, i'm not sure
Chinese Taipei - 100% individual player/club preparation

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Tony, I don't think teamwork and internal competition are mutually exclusive. When you say military style, do you actually mean by survival of the fittest? That's natural selection.

For player selection for major tournaments, there are open trials as well as coaches' picks. Which selection do you find suspicious? Please let me know and I will try to find out the original rule for that particular selection. For "injury replacement", do you mean that Guo Yan did not go to London in 2012? Well, the unspoken rule of CNT is WTTC singles titles matter a lot for competition to attend Olympic.

And for salaries and alternative paths for Chinese players outside CNT, I brought that up because I did not fully agree Baal's point that other players struggle because they don't have CNT's resources. My point is that without the best resources, a player can perform really well and Tony's examples of Chinese player playing aboard somehow support this point. But of course, not enough to become world champion or Olympic champion nowadays. In my opinion, the success of CNT (as a team) comes from talent pool, resources, teamwork and internal competition.

As for the internet hypes of table tennis in China, no doubt CNT is the most popular team after Rio in both social media and mainstream media. CNT gets the most popular team award in Sina Weibo Awards Night, which is based on the data of search numbers, topic read times, etc. CNT also gets "You bring the charm to the world" award along with Chinese astronauts team (only two teams among the 11 awardees) selected by mainstream media (CCTV not included). And during Asian Champs, every time CNT player lost to a non-CNT player, it showed up in the top 10 hot topics in Sina Weibo.

As for this thread, I tried to choose what are relevant for WTTC prep, not everything from social media like fans saw Zhang Jike playing basketball and Ding Ning/Lin Gaoyuan/Ma Long was singing for CNT's theme song. If you find it boring, fully understand.

I know one of the assistants in CNT
met one of the PR people

CNT are purposely trying new ways, more ways to increase fan based support, this is due to the declining support on table tennis as a whole.

Table Tennis is only highly up there still, not because of TT, but because other sports are slower in growth

 

[TTFrenzy]

fan boy bad mood alert

Im a big ZJK fan but I highly doubt he would be the player he is being kicked out of the CNT if his father was not a coach, and his provincial coach had good relationship with LGL as far as I remember, yan an's father is also a respectable coach if I remember correctly and he is well known amongst TT executives.

Im not degrading them as players but as you said politics/political relationship are always more influential than your value as a player. Teamwork does exist in every national team but its definitely not the deciding factor

Money organization,connections and politics come first in almost every activity when it comes to world class activities

As a kid I hated favoritism because I coulndt understand but now I would definitely push my kid if I could and it was worth it.

boll;s father was a coach, dima's father was a player/coach and many world class players had connections with their country's federation . There are very few exceptions of players who reached the top with zero connections or money and managed to get @ top200

 

[rainneverever]

Advisory board of CNT (research staffs, provincial coaches, etc) listened to Qin Zhijian and Liu Guoliang's reports

Ma Lin coaching Ma Long vs Wang Hao coaching Fan Zhendong. It is said that Ma Long won in the end.

 

[drunix80]

Is it just me or does FZD really look more slim/fit and sharp. Wow if he moves better than he already does, I am not sure what kind of new beastly form he would transform into.

 

[rainneverever]

Interestingly many top CNT players are from family without table tennis background at all. Parents sent them to table tennis class for various funny reasons. Guess who they are (all have world champion titles; their parents and close relatives do not play table tennis even for fun) when they started:
(1) to get fit (previously easy to get illness)
(2) to get tuition waived
(3) too naughty (a female player)
(4) to get his mother able to watch him training (he switched from swimming because swimming class did not allow parent watching)
(5) to get basic training good for a basketball player (a female player whose parents want her to play basketball)

Im a big ZJK fan but I highly doubt he would be the player he is being kicked out of the CNT if his father was not a coach, and his provincial coach had good relationship with LGL as far as I remember, yan an's father is also a respectable coach if I remember correctly and he is well known amongst TT executives.

Im not degrading them as players but as you said politics/political relationship are always more influential than your value as a player. Teamwork does exist in every national team but its definitely not the deciding factor

Money organization,connections and politics come first in almost every activity when it comes to world class activities

As a kid I hated favoritism because I coulndt understand but now I would definitely push my kid if I could and it was worth it.

boll;s father was a coach, dima's father was a player/coach and many world class players had connections with their country's federation . There are very few exceptions of players who reached the top with zero connections or money and managed to get @ top200

 

[Baal]

Advisory board of CNT (research staffs, provincial coaches, etc) listened to Qin Zhijian and Liu Guoliang's reports

And yet it all comes down to teamwork. (?)

(Somehow, though I doubt that Marcos Frietas has a research staff to help him break down video from all of his potential opponents in mandatory study sessions since he has to actually make a living on his own).

 

[ttmonster]

Come on guys , I think we should give this a break now ... lets just enjoy the media coming out ... we are consumers ..

yes , CNT had issues in the past and I am sure there is politics even today , any organization with access to so much power , prestige and money will have politics isn't that a reality. In any sport there is nepotism , growing up I thought it was only in the sport I played in my country and now I realize why my parents pushed me to be a software engineer and not a sportsman ...

Does CNT have better infrastructure than any other country in the world ... the short answer is yes .. does not matter whether Japan has more dollars per player, they are doing it only lately , CNT has a process in places thats been tested through generations ... also they have a much larger player base to choose from , I don't think with the current situation just putting more dollars are going to help , isn't it just pure probability ... probability of a Ma Long coming out of the CNT system is way much higher than a Miu Hirano coming out through Japan ... then comes the question of sustainability ... Pete sampras famously said becoming no. 1 is much easier compared to staying there .. of course CNT has a much larger resource and support structure to support ... is there ugly history in CNT of throwing matches not only to internal players but also to north korean players , just to show support in international politics ... yes ... but is it happennig today ... no ... so why bring it up now ... its different now .. I am sure things are more transparent ... I am sure things are not ideal .... that is why 'ideal' is what it means ...

why are we debating this in a thread meant for enjoying the media coming out of a closed training ..... I understand everybody is making valid and well thought out arguments , but I would hate this thread to get hijacked or raineneverever to stop posting this media ...

 

[TTFrenzy]

Interestingly many top CNT players are from family without table tennis background at all. Parents sent them to table tennis class for various funny reasons. Guess who they are (all have world champion titles; their parents and close relatives do not play table tennis even for fun) when they started:
(1) to get fit (previously easy to get illness)
(2) to get tuition waived
(3) too naughty (a female player)
(4) to get his mother able to watch him training (he switched from swimming because swimming class did not allow parent watching)
(5) to get basic training good for a basketball player (a female player whose parents want her to play basketball)

dude. Seriously I didnt say that all top players have TT background or that it is essential and the only way to reach the top. But on same level players with equal talent, TT background is the deciding factor

I can name you at least 10 TT legends not only chinese who had TT background , can you name me 10 TT legends WITHOUT any tt background who reached the very top without any help, purely by results?

There are countless talents in many sports that have been "Wasted" because of politics or favoritism. That's all im saying

It would be mythical and extraordinary if we humans could reach a point were we could cut a watermelon in 10 equal piece so that everybody would be happy. but we have conflicting interests and that is totally understandable.

Im not accusing anyone or any CNT philosophy, Im saying its normal and everyday human behavior

 

[rainneverever]

TTFrenzy, didn't I make it clear in my post? I only list some funny reasons why top CNT players started TT class. And let me tell you the truth, among these 5 players, 3 of them are grand slam winners. Maybe they are not qualified as "legends" based on your standards.

Let me tell you who they are and their parents have no TT background at all.
(1) Ma Long was sent to TT class because his parents wanted him to get fit (previously he was easy to get illness).
(2) Fan Zhendong was sent to TT class because his parents learnt that good performance in sports could get his tuition waived.
(3) Li Xiaoxia was very naughty while TT class kept her occupied.
(4) Fang Bo began with swimming class but his mother was not allowed to watch him training. His mother saw TT class nearby which allowed parent to stay and Fang Bo switched to TT class.
(5) Ding Ning's mother used to be a basketball player and wanted her to play basketball as well. Ding Ning was first sent to TT class because her parents thought TT class gave her basic training good for becoming a basketball player.