Content Pulled from The Hijacking of GrandMaster's Thread

[UpSideDownCarl]

If I could make mods, there are several people who already would be.

I believe everyone who was ever a mod is still one. But those people are not really on the forum any more. Maybe they come back and take a peak once in a while. But, much less frequently than me. And I am on here much less than I used to be.

But yeah, those are questions ownership needs to decide about. And I don't think they pay enough attention to see the stuff that needs attention.

 

[latej]

I am actually still handling the spam. You guys just don't see it. But yes. That was me....me and for a few seconds maybe someone else helped.....but, maybe not so much....

With incidents like when Zeio and Broken ball were going after each other and both were acting like babies and I banned both of them and I banned Zeio for 1 week longer because he insisted HE WOULD NOT STOP and BB just took my asking them to avoid each and stopped going after Zeio, I don't really feel like people understand. And pretty much no matter who gets banned they always think it is bias and it was wrong that they get banned.

The time it takes, it just does not hold any kind of interest for me. And I actually am not sure it makes things better. Those people go back to acting like they do after. And if it is a permanent ban and you have someone who wants to be here, he will come back over and over.

Before I was asked to moderate, TTD was really a lot like the wild west. It would be good if there was someone who was on here consistently and really read the forum to oversee that aspect of things. These days I see the big stuff. But not the little stuff that leads up to it. It helps to have that perspective to try and manage a bunch of adults acting like children.

I noticed you have been less active, maybe 1/2 year - can't obviously know what is happening, personally. And actually I can't know how much time you invest to TTD. But for sure I am thankful for that, and also, if you wish to have more time, to have other moderators, it should be done according to your wish.

Regarding zeio and BB, I feel I need to tell you my opinion now. For me you are a person too, so while I respect you as an admin, and I am thankful, I simply disagree here, and I think that is normal and OK. In my opinion you have some weakness for BB, for some reason you are convinced his posts are valuable, or what not. I don't. I think zeio was right. I consider it as a "quirk" of yours, it is what it is. I hope you understand, that is my personal view, you very likely see some things as my "quirks" too. And it is OK too ;-)

I'd definitely enjoy meeting you and having a hit with you, as well as with virtually anybody here... Any ideas how to make TTD obscenely rich, so that they can organize a tournament with tickets for all of us?

About the moderation, when I read your posts, perhaps I didn't realize how much it is, that you do. But my idea was to make it so, that these decisions, whether to ban someone etc., are not costly, you so that you (or any admin) can do it without thinking (based on basic required rules). And the other, tougher, decisions - let the forum sort it out. Because that then has a value for the forum too, most likely more than the other way. And I think I misunderstood your late less-activity so, that I thought you may see it this way too. I didn't know it had other, personal reasons. Good luck!

 

[NextLevel]

Carl, make me a mod
My only job is to ban the guy who uses red text.
if he reincarnates and uses other colors - ban ban ban
lol

When I get tired, someone else takes over.
I don't think he will ever give it a rest, not after so many decades

So much garbage, just means more to clean up = more work at the end.
I do understand your capacity at the moment, but I do think certain individuals are taking opportunities. I did tell the ownership that quality of the forum has become a problem. Or maybe we all wasting our time here, since it is only heading one direction and you seem to be the last bolt holding things together. 1 bolt holding all the pressure

Trust me, you may not enjoy the work it takes to ban the color guy. The mytt community ended up hating him even more than the mods and they report him even more than the mods, they sniff him out before we even see him. That's one of the reasons why mod teams are important, it definitely is too much work for one person and without community contribution, it is even too much work for a team.

 

[JeffM]

If I could make mods, there are several people who already would be.

I believe everyone who was ever a mod is still one. But those people are not really on the forum any more. Maybe they come back and take a peak once in a while. But, much less frequently than me. And I am on here much less than I used to be.

But yeah, those are questions ownership needs to decide about. And I don't think they pay enough attention to see the stuff that needs attention.

Carl I really appreciate the work you have put in for this website. It is great to see the effect after some reported posts get actioned upon. TTD seems to me to be very youtube focused and the website itself lacks support with regards to website maintenance and moderation team. For instance, I messaged TTD / Dan with questions regarding certain aspects of the website and the promises they made and messages would be ignored / no reply. I am not familiar with the $ aspect but I assume that is because they generate alot more revenue from getting more views on their videos, and their website is sort of establishsed with advertisement etc. But I assume having a better website in terms of tech support and content would increase forume members which would bring in more ads.

I have been a moderator previously on other gaming websites, and it is so important to have more than 1 moderator, as the moderator also needs sleep and have their own life, and you can't just shut down the website when they are not moderating. Sometimes having a team of moderators allow decisions to be made after discussion of the moderators. TTD website needs more moderator to keep discussions healthy, or even to promote discussions.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I think zeio was right. I consider it as a "quirk" of yours, it is what it is. I hope you understand, that is my personal view, you very likely see some things as my "quirks" too. And it is OK too ;-)

So, you think, after I asked Zeio MULTIPLE TIMES, to stop going after BB and that what he was doing was making BB worse, that his answer was "No, I enjoy doing it, it is exciting," (basically F-You), he was right and he should be allowed to harass someone?

I am not going to defend BB. I can see you do not understand what goes on behind the scenes or why I work to try to CONTAIN BB.

But, the idea that you think it is okay for someone to say, when asked nicely many times and then told, "you have to stop doing this or you will get a two week ban," that he basically said F-U, when I am just trying to get the forum to calm down and to stop having what was obviously an long standing (about a decade) FLAME War, well, all I can say is, you clearly are not seeing the whole scenario.

Should I ban BB permanently? I know there are a lot of people who think so. If I do, he will also come back again and again. I have a feeling, in the long run, it will be worse that way. But, on that, I could be wrong.

But with the other guy with the bold, large, red letters, I know, multiple times, I have got him to get bored and go away for years at a time. So.....I do think that if everyone ignores him, he gets bored and goes away. And what has been happening this current incarnation is, people are trying to argue with him, and that just gets him more active.

 

[NextLevel]

i've obviously was away for a good few years and came back some where last year.
i actually didn't notice it was only you left on the mod team.
I guess it is pointless to ask, where did they go...

I agree with NL, ownership needs to take Mod duties a bit more serious.
TTD forum is the foundation of the entire TTD image.
without all these mods and members, TTD would not have all these brands advertising, and then TTD would only become a youtuber channel basically.

It is really tough for both the ownership and everyone.
I can feel you are not enjoying it. Back in the days, you used to post a lot and I'm sure you were loving every moment on TTD

The thing about being "the only moderator left" is that even on a team, different moderators have different activity levels. It's part of the reason you need a team, especially on a global webboard. And sometimes, people go through phases, like when I stopped playing and posting for a while because of kids, and there are some moderators listed at mytt who have not posted in years. So you can have a team, but some people may not do much depending on what phase of their life they are at. But you can't know this conclusively without having admin level access to track activity, and even when you do, you often can't really understand the flow of the webboard unless you interact sometimes in it. And there are some people who almost never post who are active moderators. But much more often, if someone is not posting, assume they are not moderating, you will be 99% correct. Many people should actively leave the moderation team when they stop actively moderating, but for various reasons do not do so.

It can even be used against you sometimes by posters if you are too actively posting and moderating at the same time. That's the main reason I would never consider moderating here, then whenever I say something that is edgy, someone will use that to act like I am abusing my privileges - one forum is enough for that.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

BTW: a two or three week ban.....I view that as giving someone time to cool off where they can't come on the forum for a little while. I don't really see it as a public scolding or humiliation.

I feel like, with a lot of the flame war stuff, if people wrote what they wrote and waited 24 hours before pressing "post" they might change what they say, come off more well thought out, and the forum would have less anger bouncing from one member to another. Taking time, cooling off and editing your thoughts is really helpful. So, I view a short ban as something that forces someone to stay away from the forum for a little while so they hopefully cool off rather than it being a PUNISHMENT.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Trust me, you may not enjoy the work it takes to ban the color guy. The mytt community ended up hating him even more than the mods and they report him even more than the mods, they sniff him out before we even see him. That's one of the reasons why mod teams are important, it definitely is too much work for one person and without community contribution, it is even too much work for a team.

with swearing, I report every time.

I agree with community to come together. But Carl is just a 1 man army at the moment.
Now, I see that Carl himself is stuck as he wanted to get on reinforcements.
You can't fight a battle, if the leadership won't provide you resources to do it, not to mention unpaid/pure volunteer.

I actually wonder how strong is the TTD community in using the report button. If the community is weak, then Mods team will always have an uphill battle.
Is it worth saving TTD? I'm not too sure at the moment

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

It can even be used against you sometimes by posters if you are too actively posting and moderating at the same time. That's the main reason I would never consider moderating here, then whenever I say something that is edgy, someone will use that to act like I am abusing my privileges - one forum is enough for that.

No offense to anyone, but this is exactly why I am not so sure TTTony would be a good candidate as a moderator. I think it is more important to have him WITH his strong opinions posting exactly how he wants to. Being a moderator would cause a lot of members he may rub the wrong way to go wild with criticism and reports on him.

Tony, it would be worth it for the forum for you to be able to keep your edge.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

"the only moderator left"

BTW: @NextLevel: do you have any insights into incidents on MyTT with Zeio and mods? I believe at one point there was talk about him getting a ban there for similar harassment on MyTT. Did I misunderstand the person who told me that, or is that right?

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

No offense to anyone, but this is exactly why I am not so sure TTTony would be a good candidate as a moderator. I think it is more important to have him WITH his strong opinions posting exactly how he wants to. Being a moderator would cause a lot of members he may rub the wrong way to go wild with criticism and reports on him.

Tony, it would be worth it for the forum for you to be able to keep your edge.

I hear you.
well, I am looking at maybe changing the way I engage on here..
Just post and disappear until I want to post again. Similar to Yogi Bear I think.
Basically don't stay and chat, or reduce my chat time, since I do have some fresh ideas for my free hours.

I disappeared for a long time previously and Dan keeps on asking me to share things on here, so that was really why I came back. He had a lot of energy to ask me over and over again, but it seems like the problem is inside out.
hats off to you, for holding the TTD flag upright over such a long period of time

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I hear you.
well, I am looking at maybe changing the way I engage on here..
Just post and disappear until I want to post again. Similar to Yogi Bear I think.
Basically don't stay and chat, or reduce my chat time, since I do have some fresh ideas for my free hours.

I disappeared for a long time previously and Dan keeps on asking me to share things on here, so that was really why I came back. He had a lot of energy to ask me over and over again, but it seems like the problem is inside out.
hats off to you, for holding the TTD flag upright over such a long period of time

Yeah. I think you are a valuable member of the forum and it is worth having you on here so I am glad Dan did that.

 

[NextLevel]

BTW: @NextLevel: do you have any insights into incidents on MyTT with Zeio and mods? I believe at one point there was talk about him getting a ban there for similar harassment on MyTT. Did I misunderstand the person who told me that, or is that right?

The line between protracted conflict and "harassment" can be very thin, maybe invisible. But I think there is a line sometimes.

Zeio is currently a member in good standing at mytt and is a valued contributor. As a moderator over there, I am not an entirely impartial party and can only explain visible decisions given confidentiality. We (moderator team) try our best to make sure that protracted conflicts are nipped in the bud because they can affect the community atmosphere significantly. But we need the community to communicate with us so we can keep our objectivity especially if like myself, we sometimes post on the forum as our interactions can be taken a favoritism.

 

[latej]

So, you think, after I asked Zeio MULTIPLE TIMES, to stop going after BB and that what he was doing was making BB worse, that his answer was "No, I enjoy doing it, it is exciting," (basically F-You), he was right and he should be allowed to harass someone?

I am not going to defend BB. I can see you do not understand what goes on behind the scenes or why I work to try to CONTAIN BB.

But, the idea that you think it is okay for someone to say, when asked nicely many times and then told, "you have to stop doing this or you will get a two week ban," that he basically said F-U, when I am just trying to get the forum to calm down and to stop having what was obviously an long standing (about a decade) FLAME War, well, all I can say is, you clearly are not seeing the whole scenario.

Look, I simply see it differently. There is someone, BB, who comes as BigBoss, and belittles others, and essentially tells them they are idiots. It has been done multiple times, even before that particular engagement with zeio. A lot of people ignore that. But now comes zeio, and with factual stuff, proves, that BB doesn't actually know what matters. And it is right that he shows it, proves it, because BB deserves it. That you classify it as harassment, it is of course your right. But I don't see it as harassment. Btw. I don't remember zeio belittling someone else, do you? You see, we have different points of views. I am not going to argue with you whether I understand it or not, I am also not that long on the forum. The fact is, that you treated zeio and BB as equally quilty, and that made zeio tell you what he told you. And then you made his punishment even worse than BB's.

OK, that is how I see it. It's a long time ago, I definitely don't want to make you unhappy or so. I myself am in peace about it. Strange, I disagree, but I am in peace. I wished you could alter your view, but my wish doesn't matter much.

Should I ban BB permanently? I know there are a lot of people who think so. If I do, he will also come back again and again. I have a feeling, in the long run, it will be worse that way. But, on that, I could be wrong.

But with the other guy with the bold, large, red letters, I know, multiple times, I have got him to get bored and go away for years at a time. So.....I do think that if everyone ignores him, he gets bored and goes away. And what has been happening this current incarnation is, people are trying to argue with him, and that just gets him more active.

Imho, I'd not ban anyone. The guy with bold red letters doesn't bother me at all. Why would it. Neither does BB. What you said before to NL I consider crucial. Why feed them? If people don't reply and ignore, that is imo the best way. Of course as soon as there is some basic attack (the 1st category so to say), that should not be allowed, removed and banned.

But if people do feed them, why does it make you unhappy? If the discussion is polite (not in 1st category), so be it.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Look, I simply see it differently. There is someone, BB, who comes as BigBoss, and belittles others, and essentially tells them they are idiots. It has been done multiple times, even before that particular engagement with zeio. A lot of people ignore that. But now comes zeio, and with factual stuff, proves, that BB doesn't actually know what matters. And it is right that he shows it, proves it, because BB deserves it. That you classify it as harassment, it is of course your right. But I don't see it as harassment. Btw. I don't remember zeio belittling someone else, do you? You see, we have different points of views. I am not going to argue with you whether I understand it or not, I am also not that long on the forum. The fact is, that you treated zeio and BB as equally quilty, and that made zeio tell you what he told you. And then you made his punishment even worse than BB's.

OK, that is how I see it. It's a long time ago, I definitely don't want to make you unhappy or so. I myself am in peace about it. Strange, I disagree, but I am in peace. I wished you could alter your view, but my wish doesn't matter much.



Imho, I'd not ban anyone. The guy with bold red letters doesn't bother me at all. Why would it. Neither does BB. What you said before to NL I consider crucial. Why feed them? If people don't reply and ignore, that is imo the best way. Of course as soon as there is some basic attack (the 1st category so to say), that should not be allowed, removed and banned.

But if people do feed them, why does it make you unhappy? If the discussion is polite (not in 1st category), so be it.

We agree on many things.

It is okay for us to not agree on everything.

Let me ask you, if I contacted you in a private conversation, and asked you not to engage with a certain member, and I did it several times, trying to explain to you my reason for asking, would you post my private messages to you on the forum and publicly say things to me that indicate "F-U"? Would you quote things from me without context and make it sound like I was saying things I was not?

 

[NDH]

Imho, I'd not ban anyone. The guy with bold red letters doesn't bother me at all. Why would it. Neither does BB. What you said before to NL I consider crucial. Why feed them? If people don't reply and ignore, that is imo the best way. Of course as soon as there is some basic attack (the 1st category so to say), that should not be allowed, removed and banned.

But people shouldn't have to ignore them.

If I was looking at joining the forum, and had a quick look through the most recent topics, I'd turn around and never look back.

Why should the majority have to turn a blind eye to a very small number of people who make the forum a tedious place to be?

How many potential users have they put off engaging in conversation?

How many regular users don't bother posting anymore because of the tediousness they would have to go through - With many topics being derailed by "trolls".

There should be a zero tolerance on repeat behaviour like that if you ask me.

And this is where a moderation *team* can help (rather than just poor Carl on his own).

TTD just isn't as friendly a place as it could be - With one of the best/most constructive/friendliest threads, the one where people can post video of themselves.

Why? Because the only people who can comment have been vetted heavily.

Just imagine if the entire forum was like that? It would be amazing.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I guess another detail as regards to BB and Zeio: Zeio did not really prove anything. He was posting links to content by others that was not exactly about what BB was talking about and BB sets up his "debate subjects" so that he cannot be wrong because he NARROWLY defines the subject and the answers to it.

So, in a sense, BB and Zeio were talking past each other and while they were doing it, they were both calling each other names and behaving badly. Nothing was proven. Nothing was gained. And Zeio had being doing that to BB for just about a decade so, it is a long history of bad blood. Not just one incident. There were multiple threads, across which they had hijacked the thread and were having flame wars.

In an instance like that, you can't think of either side being right. They both were wrong. But while creating an atmosphere of anger on the site, Zeio was also attacking me and refusing to let things cool down after repeated direct requests.

Does BB deserve to be managed for how poor his attitude over years is? Yes. Is he a repeat offender where Zeio was primarily offending against the offensive? Yes. But he got pretty far out of line.

And as a result, these days, I try not to get in the middle of those things if I can help it. But I think the forum may very well be worse off with nobody monitoring that stuff.

If there was someone else doing any of it, I would be well capable of helping facilitate that kind of moderation. But if I am alone and nobody else knows what is going on behind the scenes, then I am not willing to take the time to deal with it.

 

[latej]

Let me ask you, if I contacted you in a private conversation, and asked you not to engage with a certain member, and I did it several times, trying to explain to you my reason for asking, would you post my private messages to you on the forum and publicly say things to me that indicate "F-U"? Would you quote things from me without context and make it sound like I was saying things I was not?

It evolved badly. I understand you had reasons to be pissed too now. But I am not going to judge zeio's motives.

I guess another detail as regards to BB and Zeio: Zeio did not really prove anything. He was posting links to content by others that was not exactly about what BB was talking about and BB sets up his "debate subjects" so that he cannot be wrong because he NARROWLY defines the subject and the answers to it.

So, in a sense, BB and Zeio were talking past each other and while they were doing it, they were both calling each other names and behaving badly. Nothing was proven. Nothing was gained. And Zeio had being doing that to BB for just about a decade so, it is a long history of bad blood. Not just one incident. There were multiple threads, across which they had hijacked the thread and were having flame wars.

In an instance like that, you can't think of either side being right. They both were wrong. But while creating an atmosphere of anger on the site, Zeio was also attacking me and refusing to let things cool down after repeated direct requests.

Does BB deserve to be managed for how poor his attitude over years is? Yes. Is he a repeat offender where Zeio was primarily offending against the offensive? Yes. But he got pretty far out of line.

Well, if someone sets the subject narrowly, then someone else can simply prove him wrong or insufficient, by providing a broader view. And that's imo what zeio did. At least that is my perception, so for me, it is not so that nothing was proven or gained. Of course for you it may have been a repeated fight, and so you looked at it differently. I think we touched it some time ago, let's not go over it again.

For me zeio is valuable contributor. And the difference between being an offender and offending against offensive is absolutely crucial for me. Essentially that is what is happening you know were... Who is who I leave for interpretation for now...

And as a result, these days, I try not to get in the middle of those things if I can help it. But I think the forum may very well be worse off with nobody monitoring that stuff.

If there was someone else doing any of it, I would be well capable of helping facilitate that kind of moderation. But if I am alone and nobody else knows what is going on behind the scenes, then I am not willing to take the time to deal with it.

I agree very much that without someone monitoring it, like you, the forum would be worse.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I guess I want to add something about "freedom of speech". Often when people have their content moderated, they argue about the right to "free speech". That is an issue for governments and government agencies. If you are an employee of the IRS of FBI, the government of the USA cannot act against solely as a result of things you say. If there is criminal conduct in connection with what you say, that is different. But the government cannot act against you as a result of things you say and/or personal opinions.

TTDaily is not a government or a government agency for any country in the world. TTDaily is a privately owned site. TTDaily can decide, if it wants to, to restrict content -- like personal insults or flame wars -- if TTDaily decides it does not want that content on the site. TTDaily does not need any other reason for removing content. We generally don't do that. But freedom of speech does not apply to a privately run forum.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

For me zeio is valuable contributor.

I absolutely agree that Zeio has been and can be a valuable contributor. But I also know he crossed some serious boundaries, and THEY WERE WITH ME, ABOUT ME AND VERY VERY PERSONAL. He actually crossed some boundaries that no other TTD member in the decade or so of moderating has ever crossed with me.

Personally, I don't hold it against him. But he went way beyond that line with me personally and yet, all I did was ask him to take a few weeks of ignoring BB. When it stopped being an ask and I told him he needed to take a few weeks off, he went farther with the personal stuff against me.

So....

I do feel Zeio is a valuable contributor to whatever TT forums to which he will contribute, there were reasons things came down how they did.

And we don't have to agree on it all.

I hope you have a good day.