Could EU teams cooperate closer?

[zeio]

It's a fact China forced kids to play sports? The so-called fact you read in a mere article from some shady journalist? You need to do better than that.

I got a quesiton for you, tropical. Have you been through the selection process?

I know an old friend who has gone through it.

Do you know how often the process takes place?

One thing I know is that it's voluntary once you pass the criteria.

Still, I don't blame you two, as even the younger generations in China who don't know better have fallen prey to the smearing by Western media.

Here is a video about a team of Rhythmic Gymnastics at an elementary school. Oh, yeah, it's from Taiwan, your invaluable ally. Brace yourself for more child abuse, except this time with their moms watching and doing nothing.

@0:45, the narrator says the stretching process is to be carried out thoroughly, and if you need more help, the coach will give a "hand." It's all typical for anyone inspired to become a gymnast.

The kids' moms will be standing right next to them with a poker face while their kids moan and groan. Some of them might not be able to endure and would walk out, while others have become acclimated and will stay throughout.

@3:25, the coach says everyone goes through the suffering. Be sure not to miss the child manipulation @3:36.

Here is another one. You even see them laugh it off right after these abuses and manipulations.

As always,

 

[tropical]

@Zeoi... I think you still do not get my point.

We have heard/learned from Chinese players like Cheng Yinghuang (and others) when he won the US Open in 1985 (before the 1989 revolution which opened the doors of many communist countries to the free world) and became the practice partner for US national ream in 1988. Cheng told us he was forced to train when he was only 5 y/o and used to train 7hr/day for a future glory China. At such young age the kid (Cheng and many like him) knew nothing about patriotism, correct? As China progressed and became richer, parents had more choice and were hesitant to send kids away. So improved economy is the reason to reduce (not eliminate yet) such horrible practice , not the Chinese consciousness. This example shows how different China and the rest of the world are on sport competition.

Brainwashing players with "so-called" patriotism which results in someone only learns to play certain Westerner style so Chinese players get used to such style. Cheng YingHuang mentioned this practice in his article with Larry. Hey .. we Westerners can't do this!

Those are couple examples to show the OP that no matter what EU/America/Japan/free world want to do they can't never beat the Chinese in TT unless the incentive on money/fame can overcome such advantages from China practices. Think about other sports like soccer, basketball, ... mentioned previously.

Larry and Cheng wrote the Chinese secretes (no longer secretes) article many years ago. So we do know what need to be done to beat the Chinese but the system doesn't offer the chance thus we keep hoping .. hoping .. and the sport is getting boring ... boring everyday.

One day if China is rich enough and gives players more freedom in choosing which sport to play, how they want to train, and not brainwashed with rhetoric nationalism then the world may have a chance.

 

[berndtjgmann]

zeio,

For the record, China does not force children to play sports. I know of no nation that does.

There is ample evidence that shows, however, that for several decades China has cultivated a sport training system whereby children train at sports that they are tested for potential aptitude at an early age and are thus expected to excel at by their late teens. The very best become the Ma Longs, Fan Zhendongs, Ding Nings, and Zhang Yinings (in table tennis). Those who become injured or psychologically damaged due to training which can border on the brutal may face an uncertain future.

Whether it be the Bela Karolyi approach to gymnastics brought to America and condoned by USA Gymnastics or the Chinese approach to sport condoned by the Chinese Ministry of Sport, sport is simply not that important and is certainly no guarantor of national virtue. Not in Jungguo (China) and not in the flawed democracy in which I live, Meiguo, the United States of America.

 

[zeio]

Now, you're getting confused. It sounds to me you do not make any distinction among the parents forcing their children, against their wills or not, to train at a young age for hours on end, the parents opting to hand their children over to the government which forces them to train at a young age for hours on end and the country taking these children by force from their parents and force them to train at a young age for hours on end and depriving them of the chance of a proper education.

I provided my personal account that the selection process for sports schools was voluntary, and that the parents opted to hand their children over to the government for strenuous training, as well as video accounts that similar practice exists in a democratic state for those from broken families.

But sadly, you started out by throwing these child abuse and manipulation allegations in communist countries and when confronted pasted that link to a Quora thread with a bunch of pictures taken out of context to demonstrate your fallacy. That alone has already shown your anti-communist sentiment. When proven otherwise again, you're now giving me your personal account of an ex-China player whose account was provided without any of his family circumstances.

You expect me to take that seriously?

 

[zeio]

Before I have to endure more of your hackneyed allegations, here are some real personal accounts from your so-called manipulated former athletes.

This time it's from "now TV", a Hong Kong-based premium TV station. While not strictly anti-communist, its finance channel has been involved in political incidents before over the Communist Party.

People of China Series(1): National Sports Program

It focuses on the tragic stories of those who failed to make it big and left behind with injuries having trained under the program.

@4:33, there is the program overview, where the schools with a tradition in sports would single out potential talents from the school teams, those showing promise would get sent over to amateur sports schools, and if they make it there, they get sent up to the city teams, then provincial teams for centralized and systematic training, and the very best among those will be selected by the national team.

In 2011, there were 524,000 athletes in China, 38,000 of them were registered national athletes who are taken care of by the government, and among them, only 4% makes it as exceptional athletes, and under 1% makes it as world-class exceptional athletes.

@5:43, the man tells how he began training in gymnastics at 8, which all started when his mom saw a recruitment ad in newspaper by a Qingdao sports school and brought it to his dad's attention. Since his dad loves sport, he decided to send his kid over.

@17:49, the woman from rural village in Jilin was once a national champion in weightlifting from '88-90. She was assigned a job in the kitchen for the athletics team but chose not to, and collected RMB$80,000 as her retirement reimbursement. She squandered it all in 2 years.

@19:42, her former teammate drops by after last seeing each other 13 years ago. She tells how she had to retire from injury but never blamed society for not accepting her because she failed to serve the country.

What's not mentioned is that during their service, the government took care of all their living expenses. But one thing is clear, they joined the program either out of their volition or under family consent.

 

[zeio]

zeio,

For the record, China does not force children to play sports. I know of no nation that does.

There is ample evidence that shows, however, that for several decades China has cultivated a sport training system whereby children train at sports that they are tested for potential aptitude at an early age and are thus expected to excel at by their late teens. The very best become the Ma Longs, Fan Zhendongs, Ding Nings, and Zhang Yinings (in table tennis). Those who become injured or psychologically damaged due to training which can border on the brutal may face an uncertain future.

Whether it be the Bela Karolyi approach to gymnastics brought to America and condoned by USA Gymnastics or the Chinese approach to sport condoned by the Chinese Ministry of Sport, sport is simply not that important and is certainly no guarantor of national virtue. Not in Jungguo (China) and not in the flawed democracy in which I live, Meiguo, the United States of America.

Now that you are out of excuses, you try to play down the value of sport? Seriously?

Perhaps all those high school dropouts in the US should act like you and play down the importance of education so they don't have to feel as bad.

Even better, they should just blame the government for forcing them to attend school.

 

[berndtjgmann]

Now that you are out of excuses, you try to play down the value of sport? Seriously?

Perhaps all those high school dropouts in the US should act like you and play down the importance of education so they don't have to feel as bad.

Even better, they should just blame the government for forcing them to attend school.

Sport has its value as a means to promoting and maintaining physical and mental health, but misusing sport by governments of any ideology to equate excellence in sport with excellence in governance is simply nonsensical and untrue.

As for the second and third paragraphs of your post, logicians from Socrates to Professor Copi would be hard put to find a better example of a what the hell is he talking about bent scream.

Let's see if I can parse this without being overly sarcastic (probably not). Sport is valuable. Therefore perhaps (all those) American high school dropouts should emulate me and devalue the importance of learning in order to feel better.

Better yet: blame the powers that be for making them attend school (we don't need no education/we don't need no thought control).

Anybody still remember what the original idea of this thread was? Oh yeah: can Europe catch up with China in tt if Europe just gets together, practises like crazy for a few weeks with one another, and plunk your magic twanger Froggy, Paul Drinkall and Bettine Vriesekoop will be the next Men's and Women's World Singles Champions respectively.

 

[tropical]

Now, you're getting confused. It sounds to me you do not make any distinction among the parents forcing their children, against their wills or not, to train at a young age for hours on end, the parents opting to hand their children over to the government which forces them to train at a young age for hours on end and the country taking these children by force from their parents and force them to train at a young age for hours on end and depriving them of the chance of a proper education.

I provided my personal account that the selection process for sports schools was voluntary, and that the parents opted to hand their children over to the government for strenuous training, as well as video accounts that similar practice exists in a democratic state for those from broken families.

But sadly, you started out by throwing these child abuse and manipulation allegations in communist countries and when confronted pasted that link to a Quora thread with a bunch of pictures taken out of context to demonstrate your fallacy. That alone has already shown your anti-communist sentiment. When proven otherwise again, you're now giving me your personal account of an ex-China player whose account was provided without any of his family circumstances.

You expect me to take that seriously?

I already illustrated evidences and you Chinese of course do not take it seriously. You folks are notorious in making up facts as seen even in posts like this. Arguing nonsense, making up facts , and keep saying until your opponent gives up are tactics. You expect us to believe your propaganda?

You guys use patriotism to brainwash your people. While we just laugh at it because it is none of our business we realize we can't never beat you guys on TT as we are not THAT patriotic to let government manipulate us. I remmber the day ex US president Kennedy said "ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." It was considered one of the best saying at the time. Well, such saying doesn't apply now as only a handful of people will listen to. However, in China similar slogans are plenty! All over the places, in factories, schools, facilities... No wonder Xi can change China constitution because you guys are so easily manipulated by authority and possibly from people like you.

I traveled to China many times. Witnessing how a few folks committed suicide at Foxconn just to get death compensation to help their families awaken my consciousness. Thus it is no surprise people VOLUNTARILY gave their children to government controlled sport facilities to train out of their children's will. Voluntary my behind!

I did talk about patriotism as a main card to play in China sport. The West can't do the same as we do not have such a propaganda machine to manipulate people. It is so hard to change amendment that even with many deaths out there caused by guns we still can't change it. Not like your Xi who after a few years in power can flip flop your constitutions like a dealer with a stack of cards. How can you expect us to believe you guys play fair game to your own people, in this case, particularly children? You guys contradict yourself one after another, invent facts, lie, do all kind of unbelievable things to human beings and still claim innocent! Tienanmen event exists or not? You tell me. If you said yes, then I will consider your arguments.

 

[RidTheKid]

This is gonna be off topic regarding TT:

You mention JFK, you know what happened to him, right? The best president you've ever had. Since then you've had puppets instead of an acting president.

Are you serious about US not being a propaganda machine??? Then you are lost. US is the single biggest propaganda machine in the world. 1500 newspapers, 1100 magazines, 9000 radio stations, 1500 tv stations, 2400 publishers, owned by only 6 corporations.


Do you want to get into a discussion about US foreign politics perhaps?

I already illustrated evidences and you Chinese of course do not take it seriously. You folks are notorious in making up facts as seen even in posts like this. Arguing nonsense, making up facts , and keep saying until your opponent gives up are tactics. You expect us to believe your propaganda?

You guys use patriotism to brainwash your people. While we just laugh at it because it is none of our business we realize we can't never beat you guys on TT as we are not THAT patriotic to let government manipulate us. I remmber the day ex US president Kennedy said "ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." It was considered one of the best saying at the time. Well, such saying doesn't apply now as only a handful of people will listen to. However, in China similar slogans are plenty! All over the places, in factories, schools, facilities... No wonder Xi can change China constitution because you guys are so easily manipulated by authority and possibly from people like you.

I traveled to China many times. Witnessing how a few folks committed suicide at Foxconn just to get death compensation to help their families awaken my consciousness. Thus it is no surprise people VOLUNTARILY gave their children to government controlled sport facilities to train out of their children's will. Voluntary my behind!

I did talk about patriotism as a main card to play in China sport. The West can't do the same as we do not have such a propaganda machine to manipulate people. It is so hard to change amendment that even with many deaths out there caused by guns we still can't change it. Not like your Xi who after a few years in power can flip flop your constitutions like a dealer with a stack of cards. How can you expect us to believe you guys play fair game to your own people, in this case, particularly children? You guys contradict yourself one after another, invent facts, lie, do all kind of unbelievable things to human beings and still claim innocent! Tienanmen event exists or not? You tell me. If you said yes, then I will consider your arguments.

 

[tropical]

This is gonna be off topic regarding TT:

You mention JFK, you know what happened to him, right? The best president you've ever had. Since then you've had puppets instead of an acting president.

Are you serious about US not being a propaganda machine??? Then you are lost. US is the single biggest propaganda machine in the world. 1500 newspapers, 1100 magazines, 9000 radio stations, 1500 tv stations, 2400 publishers, owned by only 6 corporations.


Do you want to get into a discussion about US foreign politics perhaps?

Who saif JFK was the best US president? Apparently you know nothing about US politics.

 

[RidTheKid]

Let me guess, you prefer Bush JFK iwanted to get rid of CIA and the Federal Reserve, as well as getting out of Vietnam. And he he wanted to make things better for the black population. Those changes had made the world much better. All the other presidents have been puppets to the MIC. So yes, that makes JFK the best you've had.

I know too much about US foreign policy while apparently you are totally ignorant. Why is the US trying to mess up the middle east for instance?

Who saif JFK was the best US president? Apparently you know nothing about US politics.

 

[tropical]

Let me guess, you prefer Bush JFK iwanted to get rid of CIA and the Federal Reserve, as well as getting out of Vietnam. And he he wanted to make things better for the black population. Those changes had made the world much better. All the other presidents have been puppets to the MIC. So yes, that makes JFK the best you've had.

I know too much about US foreign policy while apparently you are totally ignorant. Why is the US trying to mess up the middle east for instance?

You are talking nonsense that is why I am ignoring you. First you said JFK was the best president, then you said US is a big propaganda machine, then you blah US foreign policy??? What are your points? At least in my argument I was saying everything related to TT and the OP. What US policy in Middle East has anything to do with the OP?

 

[RidTheKid]

You just proved you can't read. I wrote "This is gonna be off topic regarding TT:"

And you have no educated response therefore you are a troll. While I answered all of your questions.

No the US policies have nothing to do with TT since there is no money involved, and the US suck at TT as well. Those two facts are probably correlated.

You are talking nonsense that is why I am ignoring you. First you said JFK was the best president, then you said US is a big propaganda machine, then you blah US foreign policy??? What are your points? At least in my argument I was saying everything related to TT and the OP. What US policy in Middle East has anything to do with the OP?

 

[tropical]

Wowwwww I am asking you what US policy has anything to do with the OP and now you are blaming me a troll. Nice tactic troll.


Again, what US foreign policy has anything to do with the OP?

 

[RidTheKid]

It doesn't, just like I wrote TWICE. Did you get it this time or should we go for the strike out? An american blaming other countries for being a propaganda machine is hilarious.

Wowwwww I am asking you what US policy has anything to do with the OP and now you are blaming me a troll. Nice tactic troll.


Again, what US foreign policy has anything to do with the OP?

 

[tropical]

You apparently couldn't tell how I relate my thoughts with the OP. It is YOUR opinions that this thread is out of track and started blahing nonsense.

I asked specifically "US foreign policy" then you answered with US policy. Can you tell the difference? WTH...

 

[RidTheKid]

Chinese are among the hardest working people in the world and you somehow find propaganda in what they do? Well I find that insulting. Switch "propaganda" into "pride" and we're ok.

You apparently couldn't tell how I relate my thoughts with the OP. It is YOUR opinions that this thread is out of track and started blahing nonsense.

I asked specifically "US foreign policy" then you answered with US policy. Can you tell the difference? WTH...

 

[tropical]

Chinese are among the hardest working people in the world and you somehow find propaganda in what they do? Well I find that insulting. Switch "propaganda" into "pride" and we're ok.

You are really full of it. Before being an American immigrant I used to live with communists for 2 years and went to a well known university there. I used to be forced to learn Marxism-Leninism economy. I used to be brainwashed to believe in the superiority of a Socialist/Communist system. I used to be forced to do labor in remote countryside to help the country become better. Not until 1989 then the commie changed their system to Communist goverment/capitalist economy then we see what creatures they become now. How dare you say you know the communists better than me?

 

[RidTheKid]

Where do you come from?

You are really full of it. Before being an American immigrant I used to live with communists for 2 years and went to a well known university there. I used to be forced to learn Marxism-Leninism economy. I used to be brainwashed to believe in the superiority of a Socialist/Communist system. I used to be forced to do labor in remote countryside to help the country become better. Not until 1989 then the commie changed their system to Communist goverment/capitalist economy then we see what creatures they become now. How dare you say you know the communists better than me?

 

[jawien]

Guys, let's just give up accusing each other who is further away from the OP topic and who is not. We are all drifting now in the big global economy and politics issues, so only reasonable thing is try to make some order in the current point of our discussion.


Although Nauru being my "wish country" here in Poland a was a teenager when the Communism fell in 89'. We had several protest with people being killed, the Martial law announced in 1981 resulting in many victims.
Of course there are other issues and injustice going on today too, but it does not change the fact in our case, that back then we were living in a totalitarian system.


I can understand Zeio's arguments that it must take a real hard work of the children in order to make them a world class athletes. It was interesting for me, to read the wiki page about Béla Károlyi mentioned by Brendt. "Gymnast Kristie Phillips, who had left Károlyi's gym and trained with other coach, said that Peters' (other coach) workouts were "not half as intense (as Károlyi's)"" * ...

Some of his former athletes, including Kristie Phillips, Dominique Moceanu, and Erica Stokes publicly talked about the negative aspects they experienced during their workouts*. Methods, she experienced, where described as "brutal" by Emilia Eberle [1] *.

To be fair there are other testimonies of gymnasts defending Béla. "A number of former Károlyi gymnasts, both supporters and detractors, have acknowledged that some of the allegations about Károlyi were true, but have also claimed that the ends — medals — justified the means." *


My point is, that the above shows how little it takes to let a controversial system in my opinion exist, whenever there is any kind of a pressure or appeal of "gold". There was this great movie "Whiplash", have you guys seen it? Unbelievable picture about a "strict and abusive, mocking and insulting" conductor who is doing this to his students, for the sake of a great jazz music. Sometimes you just don't know who is right and who is wrong ...


... Motivation is a big thing. Our Himalayans made the best accomplishments before 89'. Mountains were their escape from the gray world of the communism in our country. It was their passion too.

* Source: wikipedia "Béla Károlyi", "Controversy" paragraph.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Béla_Károlyi

[1] Her testimony is actually more specific, but I do not want to use too strong statements here, in order not to antagonize too much our discussion.