Could EU teams cooperate closer?

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I remember in the old days communist countries like East Germany, Russia, Yugo, Cuba, China,.... spent a lot of money in training their athletes to compete in Olympics events. One time East Germany was #3 in gold medals only behind US and Russia (I forgot which year). So the answer is yes; there is a will, there is a way. Now since China is still communist (government, not economy) they can continue doing what they used to. Unfortunately, other countries are FREE/democratic countries so they can only rely on their citizens' enthusiasm in certain sports, and even worse, table tennis is not their favorite one! Sweden may pour in some resources in but such a small country with too low population can't be a threat to China. It was a miracle that Sweden had someone like Waldner and 2 wing shake-hand attack style in the 90's to dominate the sport for a short period of time, but the Chinese adapted well and the rest is history. We all know how China put potential kids in training out of their (and possible their parents) consent when they were at very young age. Could we do the same? The answer is no, because we are not communists.
 
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I remember in the old days communist countries like East Germany, Russia, Yugo, Cuba, China,....[...]

Thanks Tropical. I guess we have young people commenting and not everybody remember the days of the communist regime. Sport's role and its position is definitely different in the "market economy" than it had in a centrally governed countries back before 89'.

I would also say sport was more romantic back than. Many polish Himalayan climbers often say it was not a coincidence their golden age ended with the fall of communism. If the expedition is only about sponsors and money, nobody wants to risk their lives anymore.

They say EU is generally a Socialism, so maybe there is a chance .... ; )

I can see Truls Moregard [...] So did he need pan european alliance to achieve that ? Of course not. I think the main advantage of CNT is the incoming talent pool is extremely big and of high quality compared to any country. [...]

Truls caught my eye in the recent JWTTC in Italy and I was watching him ever since. As you guys noticed he is really something with his style. But my concern was actually to provide a best training environment for players like him, just like China does with its pyramid training system.
 
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The Chinese government, which reserves unto itself the right to do with its child citizens whatever it deems necessary for the greater glory of the Chinese state, has no qualms in cooperation with its Ministry of Sport, and national athletic associations about separating children from their parents from toddlerhood to young adulthood, sending them to sport training facilities, giving them a rudimentary education, expecting them to become world class athletes approaching adulthood, depriving them of a possibility of a childhood given to other children, depriving them of worldly knowledge, depriving them of the possibility of gainful employment in areas except possibly the sport they pursue, subjecting them to psychological stress, physical abuse and the possibility of lasting physical injury, and all of this for the supremely cynical purpose of demonstrating the marriage of excellence in sport to greatness in governance.
 
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UK invested a lot on particular Olympic sports that they have some good athletes and they achieved a lot in 2012 London (#3 of gold medals and #4 of total medals) and 2016 Rio OG (#2 of gold medals and #3 of total medals). Japan has started investing a lot on particular Olympic sports too, aiming good results in 2020 Tokyo OG. Are UK and Japan communist countries?

Of course, China did the same thing for 2008 Beijing OG. Do you know the likes of ML, XX were selected in 2003 into a talent pool for 2008 OG?
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Yes, there is a will and there is a way. Pour money in, state wise and corp wise. Plan ahead. So much can be done.
 
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UK invested a lot on particular Olympic sports that they have some good athletes and they achieved a lot in 2012 London (#3 of gold medals and #4 of total medals) and 2016 Rio OG (#2 of gold medals and #3 of total medals). Japan has started investing a lot on particular Olympic sports too, aiming good results in 2020 Tokyo OG. Are UK and Japan communist countries?

I think you deliberately are missing the fact that the mentioned countries do not force their kids to play table tennis. They are getting better by their own wills and not exploited by government propaganda machine.
 
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Just add the 04/08 OG results to support my point of UK's successful investment in OG, UK is #4 of both gold medals and total medals in 2008, #10 of both gold medals and total medals in 2004.

UK invested a lot on particular Olympic sports that they have some good athletes and they achieved a lot in 2012 London (#3 of gold medals and #4 of total medals) and 2016 Rio OG (#2 of gold medals and #3 of total medals). Japan has started investing a lot on particular Olympic sports too, aiming good results in 2020 Tokyo OG. Are UK and Japan communist countries?

Of course, China did the same thing for 2008 Beijing OG. Do you know the likes of ML, XX were selected in 2003 into a talent pool for 2008 OG?

Yes, there is a will and there is a way. Pour money in, state wise and corp wise. Plan ahead. So much can be done.
 
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We have an international company on this forum and I wouldn't want anybody to feel offended ...
In the western countries the deprivation might happen on a very different levels, "decentralized" and hidden.

Regarding the realities of how China's training system works, also in the aspect of treating the minorities, I'm not an authority here. I've seen, but quite long time ago, short movies about how "hard" (put very gently) the practice was for little kids, specially in gymnastics ...

Moving into the lighter territories ... I have great respect for Liu Guoliang and the fact, he is not a head coach of the CNT, is unjust in my opinion. But a great coach as he is, you remember his famous speech to the team, where he was publicly talking very harsh about many of the players (in front of other players!) ... I mean in Europe or US I guess he would probably be dismissed the very next day. The gap between mentality what a coach can say publicly was huge for me. Would anyone imagine Jorg Roskopf or Richard Prause having such a talk to the German team ....... : ))))
 
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People think Chinese are manipulating young kids. However, do you forget that most of the active CNT players are the only child of their family due to the "one child policy"? It does not make much sense that they achieve more because they were manipualted. Chinese parents may have high expectations of their kids but in reality most parents just spoil their kids because they have only one. Also, I think a lot of people know what was going on in USA's gymnastics. That's cruel.
 
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Ha ha .. you are very defensive Rainnever. As this will get more into politics discussion and I know for for sure that everything from China has a hidden political agenda I will respect the OP and stop here. Jawien, I sincerely do not see how EU can beat Chinese in table tennis without brainwashing and forcing their children!
 
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Ha ha .. you are very defensive Rainnever. As this will get more into politics discussion and I know for for sure that everything from China has a hidden political agenda I will respect the OP and stop here. Jawien, I sincerely do not see how EU can beat Chinese in table tennis without brainwashing and forcing their children!

Ha ha ... thanks for being honest. So I guess the political topics are pervasive ...
Let's keep this forum relatively light ... in fact I would say we tend to play tt to have some rest from the hardships of life ... don't we?
 
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Using allegations of China for manipulating children without any proof as the reason that the West can't beat China sounds to me a poor excuse at best. Typical US imperialism. And reading that from Berndt has completely erased whatever respect is left I have of him.

What can you expect when the sheeple get manipulated by Facebook without their consent? Well, I guess there are more important issues to solve than beating China at table tennis, say safeguarding those poor little souls from being taken by mass shooters at schools? They shouldn't be deprived of the chance to be manipulated by big corporations.
 
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Using allegations of China for manipulating children without any proof as the reason that the West can't beat China sounds to me a poor excuse at best. Typical US imperialism. [...]

OK ... we are officially derailed. Great ...



Zeio, since we have your attention. I remember your post about about how European tt got stuck in the 80'ties. We already touched a little about the weakness of the European style, what could such a body of EU coaches, introduce into the game to make it more competitive?
 
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I was going to write about that and the badminton example. But now it just struck me that in doing so I am in fact doing my country a disservice, so why would I help the enemy that doesn't want any help in the first place?
 
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I was going to write about that and the badminton example. But now it just struck me that in doing so I am in fact doing my country a disservice, so why would I help the enemy that doesn't want any help in the first place?

Ha ha .. no no it's just tt, and every wise advise is more than welcome. Showing our weakness is not the same as finding a cure. Just for the sake of an interesting topic, which went sideways for a moment.

Besides, I guess we are not talking a top secret staff here ... ; )
 
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Using allegations of China for manipulating children without any proof as the reason that the West can't beat China sounds to me a poor excuse at best. Typical US imperialism. And reading that from Berndt has completely erased whatever respect is left I have of him.

What can you expect when the sheeple get manipulated by Facebook without their consent? Well, I guess there are more

important issues to solve than beating China at table tennis, say safeguarding those poor little souls from being taken by mass shooters at schools? They shouldn't be deprived of the chance to be manipulated by big corporations.

Expressco.uk July 20, 2011

China’s brutal race for Olympic gold


Tom Daley’s quit school in a bid to win medals in a year but can athletes compete against those coached in the most sadistic training regime ever devised?


By ADRIAN LEE
PUBLISHED: 00:00, Tue, Jul 26, 2011






These young weightlifters set their sights high
These young weightlifters set their sights high []
TOM DALEY’S recent visit to China was a chastening experience.


The teenage diving sensation, who is expected to lead our assault on the medal table at next year’s London Olympics, returned home empty-handed from the World Championships in Shanghai.


Worse, the 17-year-old and his fellow Britons could only watch helplessly as the host nation won all 10 golds on offer.


It’s a setback that has prompted Daley to announce that he is quitting school to focus on next year’s Games.


Daley’s dedication is commendable but his failure in the Far East, where he came fifth, provides a wake-up call to anyone who believes Britain will stroll to a record medal haul.


A gymnastics coach pushes his pupil to the limit
A gymnastics coach pushes his pupil to the limit
China is approaching sport with a level of precision, planning and ruthlessness normally reserved for the battlefield.


Throw a population of 1.3 billion into the mix and it’s apparent that its success at the Beijing Olympics, topping the medal table for the first time, was no fluke.


China is emerging as an economic super-power and its leaders recognise that the Olympics, with its global television audience, is the perfect showcase for its power.


“Sport is not just playing ball. It reflects our country’s image, force, spirit and the superiority of our socialist construction. The achievements in sport are the glory of our country and our people.”


Much has changed since that statement was written by a Communist Party official in 1963 but it still encapsulates


China’s attitude to sport.


Chairman Mao Zedong established China’s sporting structure in the Fifties and the result is a win-at-all- costs mentality.


Chinese children showing athletic promise are enlisted into regional training schools. It is known as the whole-nation system in a country where there are more than 600,000 sports centres.


The elite pupils are then dispatched to China’s sinister National Training Centre, a sprawl of buildings in a Beijing suburb patrolled by armed guards.


Once there they become employees of the state and are expected to sacrifice everything in exchange for the opportunity to bring glory to China.


When their careers are over the best are rewarded with free university educations to compensate for the schooling they have missed.


Those who fail to win medals must sit tough entrance exams. Training methods are shrouded in secrecy but occasional glimpses have revealed the brutality and bullying that goes on in the name of sport.


The burn-out and injury rate is claimed to be high. This is especially the case in gymnastics where boys and girls endure torturous stretching exercises and are made to do handstands for up to 30 minutes to improve balance and endurance.


Parents tolerate this hard, some say abusive, treatment because it is part of the culture and there are financial bonuses for those who climb to the pinnacle of their sport.


A gold medal can be worth up to £15,000. In China there is a phrase that translates as “well-meant whipping”, which helps explain the attitude towards abuse.


“Competitive sport is war without gunfire,” said Fan Hong, a former swimmer and academic, describing Beijing’s attitude toward gold medals.


A few years ago it was claimed that Ma Junren, a renowned track coach, made Olympics hopefuls run a marathon a day.


At his training camps athletes were said to be told to eat “traditional medicine” caterpillar fungus and drink turtles’ blood.


Then eyebrows were raised further when it emerged scientists from former East Germany, discredited over drugs allegations, were involved in China’s sports programme.


In one horrendous case two years ago a football player who asked his coach what time he started training the following day died after he was kicked in the chest and fell striking his head.


The authorities could not turn a blind eye and the coach was sentenced to three years in jail for manslaughter. Officials insist the use of violence is not condoned.


In the West these methods are repellent but as Daley found to his cost, the Chinese are reaping the benefits, turning out performers such as Qiu Bo in the diving pool who reeled off a series of perfect scores in Shanghai.


In Beijing China won 51 gold medals, dwarfing its nearest rival the US which took 36.


IT IS the result of a plan started 10 years ago, codenamed Project 119, in which Chinese officials identified that number of gold medals available in the nation’s weaker sports.


Millions of yuan were poured into events such as swimming, boxing, rowing and athletics. It also reflects Chinese thinking that one gold medal is worth a thousand silvers and elite athletes now receive more than 80 per cent of the nation’s entire budget for sport.


Frank Dick, a former director of coaching for British athletics, says: “We are going to have to brace our- selves. China is improving in sports in which it has not been traditionally strong.


We know all about table tennis, diving and gymnastics but China’s mentality is that being top of the Olympics medal table proves that it is a powerful country.


“Before the Beijing Olympics China studied and adopted the best training regimes from all over the world. China was determined to do well in its home Olympics. We don’t know exactly what China’s training methods are now but in cultures like our own that level of intensity would not be acceptable.”


Another expert, who works for an organisation producing British elite athletes, adds: “If someone in China is not performing there are another 10 ready to take his place. We might have one or two top competitors in a sport but in China there are often 10 or more.”


China’s more open approach to the rest of the world has also provided an added boost for its sports programmes. For the first time the best Western coaches are being lured to the Far East, tempted by large salaries.


However some coaches have been shocked by what they have seen. Tom Maher, an Australian coach of China’s women’s basketball team in 2008, said: “The logic [in China] is if two hours training is good, four must be better.”


He recalled athletes being woken at 3.45am for a 10-mile run, followed by a weight-lifting session before breakfast.


Before the Beijing Olympics Matthew Pinsent, Britain’s gold-medal winning rower who is no stranger to sacrifice for his sport, visited a gymnastics training centre.


He said: “I was shocked. I do think those kids are being abused.” At the training camps there are flags and slogans. At the main table-tennis training camp a red banner with Chinese characters reads: “Future champions go from


here to the world.”


Inevitably the system has echoes of the way athletes were treated in the Soviet Union. Earlier this month one of China’s most promising gymnasts was found begging on the street.


Zhang Shangwu, 28, was cast adrift after suffering a career-ending injury, which left him unable to work. He had to sell his gold medals for £10 each to pay for food.


In Shanghai last week Tom Daley branded his Chinese rival “unstoppable” and by the time the opening ceremony for the 2012 Games begins the divers from China will have practised for thousands of hours more than any of our athletes.


It won’t be the sound of Bow bells but the strains of China’s national anthem ringing out from the East End of London next summer.


This is by no means the only article that may be found on the Internet regarding the methods used by the Chinese to command excellence through fear in their youngest and most vulnerable athletes. And such practices are by no means confined to China. They occur and can occur in any country in which athletic accomplishment and national prestige are regarded as more important than the welfare of child athletes who are regarded and treated as little more than child indentured servants.
 
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Expressco.uk July 20, 2011

China’s brutal race for Olympic gold
[...]

This is by no means the only article that may be found on the Internet regarding the methods used by the Chinese to command excellence through fear in their youngest and most vulnerable athletes. And such practices are by no means confined to China. They occur and can occur in any country in which athletic accomplishment and national prestige are regarded as more important than the welfare of child athletes who are regarded and treated as little more than child indentured servants.

Ok ... now we are really derailed.

Brendt ... I just searched the title of the article on google and it was the first result. If you have posted just a link with your commentary ... ?

The issue is utmost important, but I think the thread is unrecoverable ...
 
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