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Creating side underspin with a loop
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I guess you can say it’s a loop in English, but in Chinese that’s usually called 兜, but I can’t really find a proper translation for that. That word literally means “to surround”, and in tt it means you touch the ball on the under/side , then throw it out.
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It looks like his namesake and is a hook serve movement. But he throws his racket up to make it look like a loop during the followthrough... This would be a really disgusting serve receive against serves that drift long if combined with the slow spinny loop imo, just wow at the amount of side-underspin generated!
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Yeah. I try this sometimes, and it's superb when I get it right. Dan got this at 3.22 here with Gauzy as well. It's quite fun
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To me, that looks like a lot of corkscrew spin. One of the ways you can tell is how much the ball kicks towards the left (BH side). If it is corkscrew (and it is), then touching that side of the ball will actually be downspin.
If he touched the left side of the ball (the side of the ball on BH side - so, touched with BH) the ball would pop up which is why it kicked so hard towards the BH side.
That is what makes a corkscrew serve so hard to return. It is kicking towards the BH side but appears to be curving towards the BH side (like a regular sidespin serve would). So, where he touches the ball would be ideal for a regular sidespin ball. But because that is corkscrew, that is where the ball is backspin. Touching on the otherside (left side) the ball would respond as if it was topspin.
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BTW: what corkscrew spin is is spin like a football where as the ball is flying forward the ball is spinning clockwise (like in that video) or counterclockwise, while the axis of the spin is front to back in the direction of the path of the ball. This ball, in the air will have a relatively normal flight. But when it bounces it will kick to the side. Clockwise spin will kick to the BH side (left) and counterclockwise spin would kick to FH side (right).
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I hit balls like in the first video but I wouldn't call it a loop. It "loops" curves due the Magnus effect.
I am right handed.
Usually when I make this stroke it is under similar circumstances like in the video. The ball is hit when it is low and far to the FH side. It is too low for me to get under the ball for a proper loop so side spin must due. I am hoping the ball will be returned to my FH due to my side spin if the ball lands at all. What I don't want for the oppnent to hit the ball to my BH corner where I have no chance of returning the ball. Look at the video again. If the ball was simply blocked to the attacker's BH he would be in trouble
To get a back spin you need to hit on the bottom side of the ball with a downward stroke.
Hitting a cork screw is difficult. Think about how you would need to hit it.
I am right handed.
Usually when I make this stroke it is under similar circumstances like in the video. The ball is hit when it is low and far to the FH side. It is too low for me to get under the ball for a proper loop so side spin must due. I am hoping the ball will be returned to my FH due to my side spin if the ball lands at all. What I don't want for the oppnent to hit the ball to my BH corner where I have no chance of returning the ball. Look at the video again. If the ball was simply blocked to the attacker's BH he would be in trouble
To get a back spin you need to hit on the bottom side of the ball with a downward stroke.
Hitting a cork screw is difficult. Think about how you would need to hit it.
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I tried this a bit - yes you can produce some ridiculous sideunderspin with it. I could easily create double bouncing "loops" which come back. But the consistency is just horrible due to the lack of Magnus effect especially against wildly varying serves ... Also it's damn hard to fool ppl with it.
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I think we need to define what a loop is. I would not call an underspin or side spin ball a loop because it drops due to gravity alone, not because of the Magnus effect.
Putting corkscrew spin on a ball is almost impossible. It really depends on your definition of a corkscrew ball. I think of a corkscrew spin as a spin where the axis lines up with the direction of flight. In reality the axis of spin is probably different from the axis of flight by about 30 degrees. The reason why it is difficult to put a corkscrew spin on a ball is that to generate the corkscrew spin the paddle must be moving perpendicular to the path of the ball and so there is no forward force.
Putting corkscrew spin on a ball is almost impossible. It really depends on your definition of a corkscrew ball. I think of a corkscrew spin as a spin where the axis lines up with the direction of flight. In reality the axis of spin is probably different from the axis of flight by about 30 degrees. The reason why it is difficult to put a corkscrew spin on a ball is that to generate the corkscrew spin the paddle must be moving perpendicular to the path of the ball and so there is no forward force.
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Corkscrew spin, as you correctly defined is real... but if I understand you saying that it is damned impossible to put near 100 percent corkscrew spin on a shot, I would agree.
Yet, I put corkscrew spin on some shots in varying degrees - 10 - 30+ % ... on some shots, I am putting top, side, and cork on the ball all at the same time.
Impacting an incoming topspin with a partial corkscrew swing plane and impact can really help make it easy to manage heavy incoming topspin and make your spin own easily.
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Lol the guy pushed it, and the ball went straight to the base of the net. This is a ball with no underspin? Sidespin balls never behave like that
Btw there's also some other pros doing it like Ma Long and Simon Gauzy (in this exact same thread) showing that the underspin is very, very real indeed.
Btw there's also some other pros doing it like Ma Long and Simon Gauzy (in this exact same thread) showing that the underspin is very, very real indeed.
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Lol the guy pushed it, and the ball went straight to the base of the net. This is a ball with no underspin? Sidespin balls never behave like that
Btw there's also some other pros doing it like Ma Long and Simon Gauzy (in this exact same thread) showing that the underspin is very, very real indeed.
Blaness, if it is corcsrew, which is why it would kick to the BH side, in the FH side, it would be as if it was backspin, and on the BH side of the ball, it would be as if it was topspin. If he contacted directly on the back of the ball which is where the axis of the spin is, it would be as if there was no spin at all.
You just have to draw the ball, with the axis of spin and think about it. Like a spiral in a football throw, if the axis of spin is parallel to the length of the table the side of the ball on the end line (back of the ball and front of the ball) would be the axis. The side of the ball that the ball kicks away from is backspin, the side of the ball that the ball kicks towards would be topspin.
You just need to think about this for a little. Of face someone who knows how to give corkscrew. Michael Landers showed me this with his corkscrew serve and it is part of what makes a corkscrew serve so effective. If the opponent reads it as having the regular vertical axis of a sidespin ball and does what you should for that kind of sidespin ball, the ball responds as if it was backspin.
At about 50 seconds in that video above they show a corcscrew....a ball with a front to back axis of spin. Just watch that spin and think about what would happen if you touched the one side of the ball and then what would happen if you touched the other side of the ball and why the ball bounces to ONE SIDE. If you do understand spin, you should be able to figure out what is going on with corkscrew, and then you would just understand that it is probably very rare for it to be 100% a front to back axis. So, on that shot in your video, there is probably a small angle to the axis rather than it being perfectly front to back.
On the graphic in the killerspin video explaining spin, if you touched that ball on the BH side, it react like backspin, if you touched it on the FH side it would react like topspin which is ALSO WHY the ball kicks to the right in the graphic in the video.
In your video, watch how the ball kicks mostly to the BH side, AND a little out towards the end table. If it was backspin, it would not kick in either of those directions.
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Not saying that there's no cockscrew spin but the way the ball dropped down on contact with a largely open racket angle on both my video as well as Simon Gauzy's "loop" (notice that Dan also attempted to push it with an open racket angle) is an indication of backspin present as a component. Of course, it's sideunderspin and not just a pure underspin ball. I know there's 2 types of sidespin and cockscrew does have the effect you mentioned.
The reason for the backspin component is simply contact at the bottom of the ball being brushed forward which produces the underspin. Of course he also has a large sideways force component (in addition to the forward component) which produces the cockscrew.
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I am not sure if we are talking past each other or if you just are not understanding what corkscrew is. Both of those shots, the axis of the spin is not quite front to back but close enough so that, if you contact that side of the ball that both of them do contact, the spin acts like backspin because ON THAT SIDE OF THE BALL, IT BASICALLY IS BACKSPIN.
But the shot itself is not a backspin shot which is why both of those balls kick sideways. If the ball kicks sideways and you contact the side the ball is KICKING AWAY FROM, THE BALL WILL REACT AS IF IT IS BACKSPIN.
If someone gave you a slow topspin ball and you contacted the side of the ball that that the ball was kicking away from, it would also react like backspin.
If a ball has heavy enough backspin, it will start bouncing back towards the net....RIGHT? With a straight backspin ball, you are contacting the side of the ball that the bounce would cause the ball to kick AWAY from.
If a ball bounces and kicks heavily to the LEFT, and you contact the right side, the ball will RESPOND AS IF IT IS BACKSPIN. If the ball kicks heavily to the right and you contact the ball on the left....the same.
The issue you are having is confusing where on the ball the people are contacting with what spin is on the ball.
If you try to understand this idea, you will likely better understand the axis of spin and how to read it. If a ball kicks forward and left IT CANNOT HAVE BACKSPIN ON IT. If a ball had backspin on it the bounce would slow the ball, or cause the ball to kick back towards the net if the ball was going slow enough or the spin was strong enough.
The fact that both of those shots, the ball kicks forward and to the left indicates that both of those shots have spin where the axis is mostly like the spiral of a football with a slight tilt in the axis so the ball would also kick a little forward.
You are familiar with how, on a ball that is heavy heavy backspin, if you contact the side of the ball the spin will be fairly light because you are contacting the ball near the axis? This is them doing the opposite and contacting the ball on the side of the spin that the ball is kicking away from.
If I was hitting a ball from the right side of the table (FH side) to the left side of the table (BH side) and it was heavy heavy topspin and it was completely straight topspin and it was going sideways on the table VERY SLOWLY, towards the BH side, and tried to contact that ball where those guys are trying to contact the ball, it would also respond as if it was BACKSPIN.
In the end, all I can ask you to do is see if you can understand how any ball, with any access of spin, flying in any direction, there is a part of that ball where, if you contact it, the contact will cause the ball to react as if it is backspin.
And again, if on both of those shots, the receiving player tried to contact the ball on th BH side of the ball THE BALL WOULD HAVE RESPONDED AS IF IT HAD PURE TOPSPIN ON IT. Just think about it and try and figure it out.
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You aren't, the problem is that you are focused on the physics and blahness is focused on the table tennis. How would you return the ball? How would knowing it was corkscrew given how the ball is travelling affect your approach?
If you pushed the ball, could you return it? If so, what is the conclusion? Does knowing it is corkscrew change that?
If you looped the ball, how would you loop it? Does knowing it is corkscrew make that easier?
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