Creating side underspin with a loop

[UpSideDownCarl]

You aren't, the problem is that you are focused on the physics and blahness is focused on the table tennis. How would you return the ball? How would knowing it was corkscrew given how the ball is travelling affect your approach?

If you pushed the ball, could you return it? If so, what is the conclusion? Does knowing it is corkscrew change that?

If you looped the ball, how would you loop it? Does knowing it is corkscrew make that easier?

Knowing where the axis is absolutely makes it easier. You could push from the FH side and act as if it was heavy backspin because from there, it would respond as if it was. If you contacted the back of the ball (side closest to the end line) you can do whatever you want because there would be the smallest amount of spin near the axis. If you took it with your BH you could spin over the top and counterloop because that would be where the ball acted most like topspin.

This is the same as if a ball kicks directly at you: if it kicks directly at you you can spin over the top and counterloop using the opponent's power. Or you can contact the side and do whatever you want to it (why hook shots have their place). With straight topspin, the only thing that is missing here is that you can't contact the side of the ball where the ball is coming from to make a shot that would go back where it came from. But if you could, that side of the ball on a pure topspin shot would also respond the way we think of when we think of backspin.

 

[blahness]

I am not sure if we are talking past each other or if you just are not understanding what corkscrew is. Both of those shots, the axis of the spin is not quite front to back but close enough so that, if you contact that side of the ball that both of them do contact, the spin acts like backspin because ON THAT SIDE OF THE BALL, IT BASICALLY IS BACKSPIN.

But the shot itself is not a backspin shot which is why both of those balls kick sideways. If the ball kicks sideways and you contact the side the ball is KICKING AWAY FROM, THE BALL WILL REACT AS IF IT IS BACKSPIN.

If someone gave you a slow topspin ball and you contacted the side of the ball that that the ball was kicking away from, it would also react like backspin.

If a ball has heavy enough backspin, it will start bouncing back towards the net....RIGHT? With a straight backspin ball, you are contacting the side of the ball that the bounce would cause the ball to kick AWAY from.

If a ball bounces and kicks heavily to the LEFT, and you contact the right side, the ball will RESPOND AS IF IT IS BACKSPIN. If the ball kicks heavily to the right and you contact the ball on the left....the same.

The issue you are having is confusing where on the ball the people are contacting with what spin is on the ball.

I understand cockscrew spin and I agree it is present, however the shot is not pure cockscrew, it has a backspin component due to the forward component of the brushing. In fact, I can actually show you another video where he makes it double bounce due to the backspin. This guy is kinda famous on Douyin.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I understand cockscrew spin and I agree it is present, however the shot is not pure cockscrew, it has a backspin component due to the forward component of the brushing. In fact, I can actually show you another video where he makes it double bounce due to the backspin. This guy is kinda famous on Douyin.

With the particular shot in your video, I actually think the axis may be biased towards the topspin tilt. The reason, it would kick more sideways and less forward on the shot in your video if the axis was tilted towards backspin. It kicks to the left and away from the net and there is not so much forward momentum on that ball. The direction of the bounce should be looked at more closely.

But on that side of the ball that is contacted, the ball will respond as backspin. So, if thinking of it that way helps you understand ways to return the ball, then that part is fine. But if a ball kicks forward and away from the net, you may be helped by thinking about what that means.

 

[NextLevel]

Knowing where the axis is absolutely makes it easier. You could push from the FH side and act as if it was heavy backspin because from there, it would respond as if it was. If you contacted the back of the ball (side closest to the end line) you can do whatever you want because there would be the smallest amount of spin near the axis. If you took it with your BH you could spin over the top and counterloop because that would be where the ball acted most like topspin.

This is the same as if a ball kicks directly at you: if it kicks directly at you you can spin over the top and counterloop using the opponent's power. Or you can contact the side and do whatever you want to it (why hook shots have their place).

The ball moves (and spins) in one direction and when it hits the table, if it has a significant amount of corkscrew, it kicks in the direction that the corkscrew element takes it. If not, my experience is that you need to treat it like topspin or backspin with a mild sidespin adjustment for contact point and that other than when returning some serves, the corkscrew element is pretty useless for figuring out how to return the ball.

Some of the things you are pointing out in my experience are impractical/riskier given how the ball is travelling.
You may have other views on it based on your experience but that is okay. But in a rally, if you do anything other than treat the balls that blahness is presenting as backspin or chop, your return usually has no chance of crossing the net. This is based on the direction is ball is travelling relative to how it is spinning. Whether it is corkscrew or not usually adds very little to that assessment in a real TT point because the biggest effect of corkscrew tends to be the kick and not the spin effect on the paddle.

 

[blahness]

With the particular shot in your video, I actually think the axis may be biased towards the topspin tilt. The reason, it would kick more sideways and less forward on the shot in your video if the axis was tilted towards backspin. It kicks to the left and away from the net and there is not so much forward momentum on that ball. The direction of the bounce should be looked at more closely.

But on that side of the ball that is contacted, the ball will respond as backspin. So, if thinking of it that way helps you understand ways to return the ball, then that part is fine. But if a ball kicks forward and away from the net, you may be helped by thinking about what that means.

It can't be topspin based on the way he has contacted the ball (brushing forwards and contacting the ball at the bottom). Also note how open the racket angle is on the followthrough which is a key telltale.

I can show you a cockscrew topspin version of the hook loop that the same guy does for deception, if the other guy pushed this it will fly to the ceiling given how spinny it is.

If it dies into the net off a push stroke in such dramatic fashion it has a significant backspin component.

If you have a look at Simon Gauzy's shot, it is even more dramatic - Dan hits it at the back of the ball with an open racket (if it was pure cockscrew spin it should behave like no spin when contacted on the back of the ball), and the ball went straight down which is a key sign of heavy backspin component.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

The ball moves (and spins) in one direction and when it hits the table, if it has a significant amount of corkscrew, it kicks in the direction that the corkscrew element takes it. If not, my experience is that you need to treat it like topspin or backspin with a mild sidespin adjustment for contact point and that other than when returning some serves, the corkscrew element is pretty useless for figuring out how to return the ball.

Some of the things you are pointing out in my experience are impractical/riskier given how the ball is travelling.
You may have other views on it based on your experience but that is okay. But in a rally, if you do anything other than treat the balls that blahness is presenting as backspin or chop, your return usually has no chance of crossing the net. This is based on the direction is ball is travelling relative to how it is spinning. Whether it is corkscrew or not usually adds very little to that assessment in a real TT point because the biggest effect of corkscrew tends to be the kick and not the spin effect on the paddle.

It is funny. I remember serving corkscrew to some high level players and having them do what happens in those videos where the ball goes right into the net. I remember serving the same serve to someone low level enough not to be able to read the spin at all and they just slapped the ball flat, over and over without having any idea of what they did but the returns were better than a lot of higher level players trying to return the same serve.

But everyone has different experiences. So.....treating the ball as heavy backspin and pushing back can be an effective and safe return on those shots.

 

[NextLevel]

It is funny. I remember serving corkscrew to some high level players and having them do what happens in those videos where the ball goes right into the net. I remember serving the same serve to someone low level enough not to be able to read the spin at all and they just slapped the ball flat, over and over without having any idea of what they did but the returns were better than a lot of higher level players trying to return the same serve.

But everyone has different experiences. So.....treating the ball as heavy backspin and pushing back can be an effective and safe return on those shots.

Serving/receiving is different since the ball is slow enough to be deliberate about where to contact it. In serving as well, it is easier to do things that give the ball a mix of spin and force vectors. In rallying and receiving, given the limitations often enforced by distance and incoming spin, not so much, though receiving can sometimes come close to serving given the ball speed and table size and contact point etc. just like serving.

These "underspin loops", the ball needs to have lost a lot of its energy or be a backspin ball for them to work. The dominant spin vector when it hits the returning paddle (even when the paddle is open) is that the ball wants to go down. It is easier to think of these strokes as a heavy chop produced with an unconventional stroke than to think of them as loops or sidespin or corkscrew balls. My main point though is that whatever corkscrew element is on them is not going to help you return the ball - the backspin element definite will with a modest adjustment for sidespin. Part of what makes the ball difficult is that many of these contacts are below the table so the returners are underestimating how much chop there is on the ball, the same way that looping a ball below the table can lead a newbie to underestimate the magnus effect on the ball (though good players see and practice against these).

 

[Kopp]

Oh, wow! Reading on quantum physics is easier to understand than this thread. It's amazing how a tiny 40 mm ball can be so intricate.
LOL

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

I lost one minute of my life

 

[Ghostzen]

Good point NL.
"Part of what makes the ball difficult is that many of these contacts are below the table so the returners are underestimating how much chop there is on the ball"

These type of strokes and there addition into a rally are change up strokes almost if that makes sense.. If you don't read it first time seeing it...WTF was that ...puzzled face, look at bat.... look at ball in the bottom of net... laugh ...relook at bat.. Next time same ..next time... bascially ...it's going down... try to adjust.

A guy at a club I used to train at a bit had crazy good hands and was kind enough to hit with me a bit doing this. He could do this not at will but pretty close to certain balls only as NL metnioned. It's the change up that throws things badly imo. I got to hit with him quite a bit when he did it and the first times you see it...total headscrew...

Is it a go to stroke for every rally no not really... I think. Is it interesting fun..yep it's a kind of showy and a wow stroke.

The chat about back,side,corkscrew.... spin leave that to you gents. The ball will go down +- a bit of side generally was my rule of thumb when seeing it first hand. That was the advice I got from him..works ok. Probably a bit simple of an analogy but worked for me.

 

[NextLevel]

The chat about back,side,corkscrew.... spin leave that to you gents. The ball will go down +- a bit of side generally was my rule of thumb when seeing it first hand. That was the advice I got from him..works ok. Probably a bit simple of an analogy but worked for me.

That's all I am saying. It's just what a TT player does - figure out how to return it using a mental model that works. The hardcore physics you figure out later if you give a damn, but I have seen lots of people with screwed up intellectual physics, myself included, return balls that they just figure out solutions for through trial, error and adaptation. You can be right about the physics and still suck at TT, and physics sometimes comes up with solutions that will never work in a match. You are going to struggle hitting a ball that is moving away from you on the side that is moving away from you!

 

[jammmail]

I lost one minute of my life

I like this is your new catchphrase

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Serving/receiving is different since the ball is slow enough to be deliberate about where to contact it. In serving as well, it is easier to do things that give the ball a mix of spin and force vectors. In rallying and receiving, given the limitations often enforced by distance and incoming spin, not so much, though receiving can sometimes come close to serving given the ball speed and table size and contact point etc. just like serving.

These "underspin loops", the ball needs to have lost a lot of its energy or be a backspin ball for them to work. The dominant spin vector when it hits the returning paddle (even when the paddle is open) is that the ball wants to go down. It is easier to think of these strokes as a heavy chop produced with an unconventional stroke than to think of them as loops or sidespin or corkscrew balls. My main point though is that whatever corkscrew element is on them is not going to help you return the ball - the backspin element definite will with a modest adjustment for sidespin. Part of what makes the ball difficult is that many of these contacts are below the table so the returners are underestimating how much chop there is on the ball, the same way that looping a ball below the table can lead a newbie to underestimate the magnus effect on the ball (though good players see and practice against these).

Yeah. I agree with everything you say here. These are fair points. And you are doing a good job of explaining the simultaneous actual spin and the spin response from the contact point. And also the difference between responding to a serve or a shot that is going faster. The whole time you are cognizant of both the spin, and how the ball reacts to the topsheet based on the contact point.

So, I would just say, this is a good and actual explanation of what is going on.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

That's all I am saying. It's just what a TT player does - figure out how to return it using a mental model that works. The hardcore physics you figure out later if you give a damn, but I have seen lots of people with screwed up intellectual physics, myself included, return balls that they just figure out solutions for through trial, error and adaptation. You can be right about the physics and still suck at TT, and physics sometimes comes up with solutions that will never work in a match. You are going to struggle hitting a ball that is moving away from you on the side that is moving away from you!

Also agree with this.

 

[Trevize84]

Here’s another one

That's underspin in the sense that it spins under the table... 🤣