Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[OldschoolPenholder]

Now OP has to post his next match against Ben ... is that a fair ask ? That would make this more fun ....

IIRC, suds did post a match between himself and Ben before.

EDIT: read too fast, sorry ttmonster, missed 'next match'

 

[Shuki]

I know lots of players who like to serve fast heavy side top into the backhand and wait for you to put the ball back into their backhand so they can rip a forehand or punch with their backhand.

Guilty ^.^

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

GUILTY! glad i'm not the only one.

Yep. That is a legit strategy for some.

Rocky Wang will serve fast topspin and wait on the power loop return and blast it. I've seen Ma Long do that for a few points off guys to keep them honest where he serves fast and is just waiting to rip their return. At that level though, it works better as a surprise and change of pace.


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[ttmonster]

I am guilty or doing that but I prefer the very fast and long underspin hook to the backhand corner of the righty. First they have to figure out how to loop it ,because of the corkscrew its not easy, and if they do, for the next I will change the axis a little towards sidespin without they seeing much difference in the action. Now, once they are confused, they will start pushing it , which gives me a backhand cross court rip to the wide backhand , which is not easy to get unless they are anticipating it and backing up already . Now , once they start getting the serve, I will move the angle to their middle ...

Archo, the thing is , and what NL is trying to say is that you see mostly table tennis pro videos, where the tactics is limited but much more subtle because of their abilities. There is a lot more you can do at our level, the options are multitudinous ...

Would be interesting to see what you call really fast.

I spoke to Brett about this since he is an incredible server and he said that World Class players will loop anything that comes off the table anywhere, including the snake serve, so you could fool them once but once they had seen it, their anticipation would kick in if you repeated it without the proper set up serves and even then, it was no guarantee you would fool them. Their athleticism and footwork pretty much restricted him to serving mostly short unless he wanted to play defense behind his serve. At that level, you need to be a world class defender and blocker to anticipate and return the opening loop which will be loaded with pace and spin so most people who serve fast long topspin are hitters and blockers who want to use the incoming pace/spin or loopers who will serve, step back and get ready to blast anything that comes back long. You are rarely going to serve fast and long at that level and get a pure pop up, and at that level and with the courts they use, they have time to do lots of things.

The problem with fast serves is that unless you get a passive return that you can kill anyways, there is no guarantee you will get a ball you like and you have to adjust to the ball off the bounce unless you back up which also gives the opponent time - that's why loopers tend not to use them - loopers need time to loop. That said, I know lots of players who like to serve fast heavy side top into the backhand and wait for you to put the ball back into their backhand so they can rip a forehand or punch with their backhand.

 

[NextLevel]

I am guilty or doing that but I prefer the very fast and long underspin hook to the backhand corner of the righty. First they have to figure out how to loop it ,because of the corkscrew its not easy, and if they do, for the next I will change the axis a little towards sidespin without they seeing much difference in the action. Now, once they are confused, they will start pushing it , which gives me a backhand cross court rip to the wide backhand , which is not easy to get unless they are anticipating it and backing up already . Now , once they start getting the serve, I will move the angle to their middle ...

Archo, the thing is , and what NL is trying to say is that you see mostly table tennis pro videos, where the tactics is limited but much more subtle because of their abilities. There is a lot more you can do at our level, the options are multitudinous ...

There are options yes, but they all prey on opponent's technical weaknesses and footwork - once an opponent knows how to defend his elbow and has good technique, all these things become parlor tricks, the exception being the fast topspin/nospin serve and stepping back, though some players know how to take such serves down the line which may put you on the defensive immediately. Serving short and low is a time tested strategy that may not fit your specific game, but will not expose you to losing the point off a single shot. I learned after getting looped on by 1800+ players when I was 1900 never to serve long on critical points, especially when down, because players were so trained to loop long serves that if you served long and they looped it off, they would have no regrets. And I was the one always doing the regretting so I figured it was better to serve something that was at least heavy backspin or side backspin short.

 

[ttmonster]

Completely agree with you NL, I was just trying to get to Archo's rhetorical question on serving long and fast and whether it works or not. I think we need to go through all the phases and tactics even if it does not work in the next level , it teaches you something.

now on the serving short no / under short, actually I recently was forced to use it primarily because I lost my timing and touch to do the high risk long serves and I am pleasantly surprised that I win points of those much more frequently than serves with sidespin on them . IDK, but I am probably going to transition to this strategy till I get my technique together for my other third ball attacks .... and this seems to have less impact on the knees too because anticipating the trajectory of the return is much easier this way ...

There are options yes, but they all prey on opponent's technical weaknesses and footwork - once an opponent knows how to defend his elbow and has good technique, all these things become parlor tricks, the exception being the fast topspin/nospin serve and stepping back, though some players know how to take such serves down the line which may put you on the defensive immediately. Serving short and low is a time tested strategy that may not fit your specific game, but will not expose you to losing the point off a single shot. I learned after getting looped on by 1800+ players when I was 1900 never to serve long on critical points, especially when down, because players were so trained to loop long serves that if you served long and they looped it off, they would have no regrets. And I was the one always doing the regretting so I figured it was better to serve something that was at least heavy backspin or side backspin short.

 

[Archosaurus]

I guess it has very much so to do with playing level ie: what you can do with the ball.

For me, long and fast topspin or dead serves are effective, and won't get me blown off the table. I can't use them as my main serve because eventually it stops working, but one or two per game is a good change and often a free smash or loop.

I think it would be very different if my opponent just looped it back loaded with spin.

 

[NextLevel]

Completely agree with you NL, I was just trying to get to Archo's rhetorical question on serving long and fast and whether it works or not. I think we need to go through all the phases and tactics even if it does not work in the next level , it teaches you something.

now on the serving short no / under short, actually I recently was forced to use it primarily because I lost my timing and touch to do the high risk long serves and I am pleasantly surprised that I win points of those much more frequently than serves with sidespin on them . IDK, but I am probably going to transition to this strategy till I get my technique together for my other third ball attacks .... and this seems to have less impact on the knees too because anticipating the trajectory of the return is much easier this way ...

I agree. The reason I made this point is because the way you play becomes a habit and you have to be careful about building your game around something that you have to change when you get better. That said there are some good players who take pride in their long serves - Jimmy Butler comes to mind.

This series is one of my favorite of all time. This is part of of 4 videos I think, but he explains the thought process of serve tactics and strategy very well.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Had a great practice session yesterday. 1 hour serving and dealing with with totally random return: short, long, push, flip. Then one hour receiving serve and countering 3rd ball. I feel like I broke past a problem receiving serve on the short FH corner. Something clicked. It was thanks to a piece of the puzzle that Mark Croitoroo gave me the technicals on 2 weeks ago. But yesterday it clicked.


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[NextLevel]

Had a great practice session yesterday. 1 hour serving and dealing with with totally random return: short, long, push, flip. Then one hour receiving serve and countering 3rd ball. I feel like I broke past a problem receiving serve on the short FH corner. Something clicked. It was thanks to a piece of the puzzle that Mark Croitoroo gave me the technicals on 2 weeks ago. But yesterday it clicked.


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This post is like an Archo submission but since you are Carl not Archo, I have to ask - what did MC tell you?

 

[Shuki]

practiced for the first time in 2 weeks. Whenever I take a break I always come back better. Anyone else have feel this way about their breaks?

 

[Archosaurus]

@UpSideDownCarl

I'm also curious. If you're gonna be any better than me at posting ambiguous bullshit, you better actually back it up too.

 

[suds79]

Here's what I could observe based on my video analysis skill at one pass , the level difference between the kid and the friend , in the context of their matchup, is too much to point out flaws in his game that will help you to beat him. The kid is essentially beating him with his overall game, meaning he pretty much does everything better than your friend, no offense to him. so the only thing I could see is the lack of footwork. There has to be some reason why the kid tried to serve short to his forehand , may be to avoid the banana or may be to push it deep and long to his either wing off the first return , not sure, but you could try that ...

+1

It is hard to judge from this one game because A, I can't do what 2000+ daniel does. And yes he wins because he does basically everything Ben does but better.

I do think that's a solid point about Daniel keeps serving to Ben's FH short. Not afraid of the flip or gets a push return. I know in my games vs him, he stands in the middle of the table taking away from me my He Zhi Wen point of being lefty serving wide then going down the line block. By standing in the middle of the table, he crushes any FH serve off the table and is content BH flipping almost any serve I give. It's annoying as heck but I've come to learn I'd rather face that than his FH. Perhaps more serves short to his FH i should go with.

Ben actually recorded a match we had in October. It was the first time I've beaten him in two years. I've seen it a few times but don't reference it a ton. Namely because I feel he was simply missing a lot (and i mean a lot) of BH flips on my serve he normally gets in. Furthermore, I've since come to adopt a more aggressive LP game than what I displayed in this video. I don't think it's a good showcase match of what we can do do IMO.

Ben needs to get a better camera but since you asked for it...

check out my channel if you like.
https://www.youtube.com/user/Soper79/videos?sort=dd&view=0&shelf_id=0

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

practiced for the first time in 2 weeks. Whenever I take a break I always come back better. Anyone else have feel this way about their breaks?

75%, if not more, of the time, i come back from a break playing poorly ... lost touch, timing, strokes etc. But that's also because i've not gotten to a level where i have consistent strokes grooving them

 

[Archosaurus]

@Shuki

Taking a 3 - 7 day break usually does me very well. I think all of the times when I've been playing very well, it's been after a short break.

I wonder why. No physical fatigue, or perhaps mental fatigue?

 

[ttmonster]

Yup , same here . For me longer breaks work even better ...

practiced for the first time in 2 weeks. Whenever I take a break I always come back better. Anyone else have feel this way about their breaks?

 

[ttmonster]

That means you haven't seen really good long serves, I have seen your videos , I can guarantee you there are lot of players out there , myself included without any boasting , that will blow you off the table only with long serves. Infact, serving short to players who are lower level is something more dangerous , because they have inconsistent pushes which can surprise you , or dead high balls which you miss when you try to loop ... longer serves give you easier balls to attack or they generally miss the return ...

I guess it has very much so to do with playing level ie: what you can do with the ball.

For me, long and fast topspin or dead serves are effective, and won't get me blown off the table. I can't use them as my main serve because eventually it stops working, but one or two per game is a good change and often a free smash or loop.

I think it would be very different if my opponent just looped it back loaded with spin.

 

[Boogar]

Didn't you try your Rakza x and/or Vega Pro yet?

No, haven't had any time to play since the first of December.

 

[Boogar]

I would prefer either what you currently use or the ones you proposed. I know people who use that and they are mostly trying to save money - it is soft but playable on FH. IMO, it is better to play with something that at least one good player you are familiar with and like their style plays with so you can imagine playing like them while you are building your style.

Do you remember the high ball looping exercise I showed you at Princeton? How often do you do it?

Yes i do! I had forgotten about it, but just in the last trainings session on the first I remembered. Following through to the other side while turning into the ball to grip it with the racket.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Also, a guy I have not played with for a long time dragged me to a bar where I have not played in a long time.

Why have I not played at this bar in a long time? Well, it's a bar. And being a place where recreational players are allowed to think they are good, I used to go there because it is entertaining to play someone who has never played someone who is a club level player. It no longer interests me to do that. And something dumb always happens when I go there. Always! Like someone walking into your racket or trying to start a fight.

So why did I go. The guy who dragged me is a good friend who I have not seen in at least a year. And he likes to perform. He is a chopper. Well. He can play however he wants. But he likes to play with a wooden block. And it is impressive. If I am looping and he is chopping, we have some great rallies and people are always asking him: "how can you play with a piece of wood?" It is part of his show and he likes the attention. Other people try to give him a "real" racket only to have him come up with some line about how his block of wood was custom made for him. So, basically, the layman's version of: "But this is a National Issue 2x4!"

Anyway, if I went there and all that happened was that I hit with him, it would be great fun and great practice. The chance to play against a good chopper is one that I will always jump at.

However, we hit three balls and this woman with a bit too much testosterone running through her veins for my liking stands in Tyrone's way until he agrees to hit with her. 5 min later I am roped into hitting with her which, I must confess was totally boring. She had a good forehand if I just fed the ball to her. But she was using a hardbat and when I returned her shots, she could not get the ball back because it had too much spin even when I was trying to be nice.

So I am hitting with this woman who grunted quite loud ever time she planted her left hand on the table to hit a FH. And Ty got roped into playing with everyone else in the bar. After about an hour of hitting with this crazy woman, all the people who played Ty wanted a match vs me.

Ty plays nice. They were playing games to 21 and all the games were 21-19 or 21-18. Never more than that. When I was playing then he asked the score a few times and when the guy I was playing would say 15-1, or something like that, Ty would say: "Play nice Carl!" But, sorry. I'm not going to play like I can't play when I am playing someone I didn't really want to play. I know, I am not always the poster boy for TT diplomacy. [emoji2] if we are just hitting, I can make these guys have fun. But if they want to play a match, if it is someone that bad, I am okay with letting them know the difference in our level.

Anyway, so what of the things that always happens happened? Someone walked, or maybe stumbled is a better term into me while I was in the middle of serving and my racket slammed into the side of the table.

Here is the damage.

That is the most damage my V+ has sustained and that was from a full force, full acceleration, hook serve into the metal edge of a Cornelieu outdoor table. The place is not outdoors. But the outdoor table ensures the table is protected from drunken fools and alcohol.

I know that is not much and, the force of that blow with any other blade I've used would mean tech work to fix the damage. But it still sucks.

Anyway, it would have been much more worth it if I got to play for longer with Tyrone. But 30 min with Ty and 90 min of torture almost makes me feel, I should not have gone.

Next time I will force Ty to meet me somewhere where we can play and not be swarmed by grommets.



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