Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[UpSideDownCarl]

Played with Mike Landers this morning. He did a multiball drill with me that was about getting me to learn to track the ball with my feet. Definitely need this.

He actually told me that there are some parts of my game that are pretty high level. The number he said was 2200. But there are other parts of my game that are just flat out bad like 1200. I think that is actually pretty accurate. That is what got him working with me on the multiball drill that gets me to track, set my feet and then backswing. He noticed that when my spacing is good, my shots have high ball quality. And when my spacing is off, which is too much of the time the case, that it throws me off balance and I don't recover after that.

Thinking about it, and how I learned to use my feet and move with shadow drills and never got enough time doing those kinds of drills with a ball, it makes perfect sense.

Being mostly self taught and having gotten a lot of help from pros and better players, but not much real time playing with them.

I can see with guys who have gotten consistent weekly lessons with a coach, some of the stuff they are solid at that I am just not that good at.

But, anyway, it was fun playing with Mike this morning.


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[NextLevel]

Played with Mike Landers this morning. He did a multiball drill with me that was about getting me to learn to track the ball with my feet. Definitely need this.

He actually told me that there are some parts of my game that are pretty high level. The number he said was 2200. But there are other parts of my game that are just flat out bad like 1200. I think that is actually pretty accurate. That is what got him working with me on the multiball drill that gets me to track, set my feet and then backswing. He noticed that when my spacing is good, my shots have high ball quality. And when my spacing is off, which is too much of the time the case, that it throws me off balance and I don't recover after that.

Thinking about it, and how I learned to use my feet and move with shadow drills and never got enough time doing those kinds of drills with a ball, it makes perfect sense.

Being mostly self taught and having gotten a lot of help from pros and better players, but not much real time playing with them.

I can see with guys who have gotten consistent weekly lessons with a coach, some of the stuff they are solid at that I am just not that good at.

But, anyway, it was fun playing with Mike this morning.


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Footwork adjustment is in part a response to reading the ball trajectory. Not easy to assimilate as an adult. Today, I was laughing when Jeoung Youngsik of Korea hit an allout backhand from the forehand side into the backhand side vs Ma Long and Ma Long popped up the return and Jeoung ran back knewing it had a chance going in but did not adjust to take the ball with his forehand and ended up doing a silly shot that missed the table.

Does he have that footwork as a world class player? Of course he has to. But did he predict the ball trajectory in a way that triggered that footwork? You tell me.

The 2250 Kid at my club beat a guy who is a professor at MIT who is 2300+. Many good loopers never beat that professor. But the thing is that the kid doesn't always hit power shots and shots without power need the most footwork adjustment. That's why when the kid plays me and he is hitting topspin balls with pace, I am matching him if I am in position. But immediately he hits an offspeed block that I read as dead and have to adjust to, I just don't have the movement to match it and I end up missing.

So don't sweat it - footwork is more complicated than we all think it is. What is cool is that some of those players are learning some things about adult issues by coaching someone like you. Hopefully, they will learn enough to make them kinder if they have to coach another learner for money.

 

[Shuki]

Not sure the latter explanation makes complete sense but coming from a player who is looking at you, it is likely to be reasonable. You have hit powerful forehands so it is more likely that there is something about your rotation given your bias to be fairly square to the table that doesn't support power.

But the issue with having the right footwork to play a forehand from a backhand stance is a common problem with backhand players at every level. It's why even forehand dominant players who want to transition to two winged looping never really become two-winged. Also why if I was developing a kid, I would teach that footwork very early.

Part of my stance probably has something to do with being taught by a woman. Close to the table play and whatnot. But who knows.

Core is important to develop anyway so I'll probably just go with it as a temporary excuse, worse case scenario, I doesn't help my stroke but I become more in shape


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[Shuki]

@carl

Super jealous of the crowd you get to play with. Lots of insight from high level players is awesome to recieve.

We all experience "discoveries" that help our game and make us better. Maybe a new way to return a ball or create better whip mechanics or just some tiny things we notice that make us a bit better. My question is, do you guys share all these discoveries with everyone, or are there some you keep to yourself?


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[Der_Echte]

Carl's spyphoney sez Next Level is building a Weapon of MASS Destruction of hiz own...

 

[Ilia Minkin]

@carl

Super jealous of the crowd you get to play with. Lots of insight from high level players is awesome to recieve.

We all experience "discoveries" that help our game and make us better. Maybe a new way to return a ball or create better whip mechanics or just some tiny things we notice that make us a bit better. My question is, do you guys share all these discoveries with everyone, or are there some you keep to yourself?

The problem with those "aha!" moments is that you never know whether you found a really good point or just yet another delusion about the correct technique. Sometimes you make an adjustment that feels like a progress, but in fact it is a shortcut that leads to a dead-end in the long run. Here I am talking my personal experiences

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

[emoji2]

@NextLevel: footwork, definitely not sweating it. But it was fun to work on the stuff we worked on.

My footwork is interesting because I have done lots of shadow drills to sort of learn how to do them on my own. But I did teach myself. So, a lot of them, there are subtle things that are not exactly right that I might not need for the shadow drills, but once the ball is there, it helps if you understand those details to adjust to the ball. And to get good at footwork, at a certain point doing it with a ball is necessary. And I am not taking about things like Faulkenberg. I am talking about moving to random placement.

There are ways of getting around them up to a level. And one of the things Mike said was that, ultimately, if you want to jump higher than that, it helps to work on the stuff he showed me.

Mike was noticing how I can take a big shot and not reset and end up losing control of the rally because of how often my foot placement is sub-optimal and so I lean to adjust. I think being a shorty makes it harder to get away with that. I could be wrong. But the the idea of working on that came out of him asking what my goals really were in the game.

And my answer was that I just like playing. But I like improving and working on my weaknesses. And, in his mind, that spacing issue, moving to the right place, getting the feet planted and then turning the hips, is probably the biggest thing holding me back.

Is he right? It doesn't matter to me. What we worked on was cool, fun and made me feel my legs burn and my lungs get a workout too. [emoji2] But I have a feeling he is right that I could work on it and it would raise my level a decent amount.

But of course there are times when we all get caught out and don't move to the ball properly. Even top pros. And for me, it is fun to work on stuff like what Mike had me working on.

After working with Mike I practiced serves for about an hour. It is the first time I have had time at a table to do that in soooo long I can't remember. It was good. It helped me sort out a few things. I really need to do that as often as I can. It is worth it for me to work on the mechanics of the serve more often than I do.

@ Shuki, the thing about these secrets, I am not so sure that me doing my best to explain them in writing would actually do much to actually make them not secrets any more.

Personally, I am a blabber mouth and just say everything. But there has been stuff where someone showed me something and said, "don't show this. This is only for you." If someone does that, I respect that. But, even if I tried to explain those things with words, it would not fully get the info across. Whereas, often the words come with a visual: "you are doing this," demonstration, "you need to do this instead," second demonstration. Or, today Mark was showing me something about contacting the hook serve differently and he grabbed my hand and said something like, "not like that, like this!" What that was about, all I could say it was a subtly different quality of contact.

I those secrets just translated where we got the information and then we could do the technique. But the information does not really get processed without lots of physical repetition. So the secrets need you to practice them anyway.

Well, regardless, I got to hit with Mark for about 40 min after practicing serves. He could see that the stuff for receiving serves on the FH side that he showed me was starting to sink in.

And what I was working on with the serves was also stuff Mark showed me and so he liked that he could see I worked on the stuff. Just how I backswing and getting the hips in.

Anyway. Fun day playing.


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[pgpg]

...
The 2250 Kid at my club beat a guy who is a professor at MIT who is 2300+. Many good loopers never beat that professor.
...

Curious who that professor is - I think I would've run into him by now (and likely did, just did not know where he works/teaches))

 

[JeffM]

EDIT : I later realized you were just sharing and not asking for analysis .. but anyways I will leave it out there ... I had fun watching and thinking ...

Jeff , I saw it right after FZD beat Xu Xin , and I was not even conscious about that when I was thinking that should Jeff change to Shake hand ... but I realized later ... anyways ... what I could see ...

The quality of your game and consistency went up noticably as the match went on and you are playing pretty well ...

1. One thing I noticed and I have that problem too , sometimes you are overshooting the ball because of the larger steps you take .... I think it has something to do with you and me having left knee issues and trying to compensate on the lack of our footwork by taking larger steps ... not sure how bad your knees are but thought I would say be conscious of it and may be you can figure out a way to not fall into that trap ... may be NL can help with some practical tips ...

2. You were missing the loop on spinny wide long push to your forehand , may be you ought to practice it more , may be you are late with the footwork or the timing of the forearm snap is off ..

3. Sometimes if the ball is short topspin and high you are not trying to flip it with your backhand , any reason. the backhand flip does not have to be a banana all the time .. it could be a straight topspin flip , I have found that pretty useful , thought I will ask you why you don't do it ...

In general may be try to serve heavier and shorter and try to setup your loops ... because thats the game most probably you will end up with as you keep improving ... going by the trend all around .. but yes I would strongly say , if you are on vacation and have time and good practice partners , practice serves and your footwork . You can do shadow training off the table as well ... I am sure it will help you a lot when you come back to the game ... Good luck and thanks for sharing .... hope what I said helps ... don't treat it as coaching advise but just take it with a pinch of salt as my personal opinion and do what makes sense to you ...

Hey ttmonster, thanks for the analysis and glad you enjoyed watching it! Although I did not specifically ask for analysis, I am very appreciative of your analysis as I am sure there are areas that I need to improve but I couldn't really see for myself. I will try to address each of your points.

1. For taking larger steps, I think I was a bit lazy with footwork, and also because I just had a new pair of tt shoes, I was a bit wary of my movements.

2. For the missed forehand loops, I feel I was rusty yesterday, not enough practice recently, and also my footwork was bad. I will try practice it more when I can.

3. Yeah I get what you mean, I don't know why I don't do much straight topspin flip with backhand, perhaps I do not practice it much or I don't have the confidence. I tend to favour forehand flip more, and I seem to like using backhand banana too much, which cost me several points also. I will try to do more backhand topspin flip.

I will see what I can do with practice, as I am going on a tour today for 8 days, and then when I am back in HK, I have my elective from Jan to Feb, so more practice may only be possible once I get back to Aus.
Thanks for your advice, I always like reading genuine advices.

Edit: haha I just re-read your msg and saw the part about Xx losing to FZD. It has happened so much now, that even though I really want Xx to win, I have accepted that FZD will win most of the time, and that if Xx wins, that is an unusual occurrence. But my loyalty remains, and I will not be changing to shakehand too soon XD

 

[JeffM]

Jeff, something about your forehand just looks off - it's almost as if you get little to no core rotation. But maybe I am missing something.

Thanks NL. Yeah I don't like my forehand yesterday too. I think it could be me being wary of my finger problem before. As such, I had a little bandage around my joint, and I am not sure if I had regained the confidence to swing it freely. I am also not sure whether any of the sanding may have slightly altered the feel on my hand. But I agree it isn't what I had before and it is not something I like and I will try to fix it, hopefully it can fix itself too as I gain enough confidence to play normally and not worry about the finger. I also think my lack of footwork ytd made the problem worse, and as my friend like to play position, it made my forehand problem worse as well.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

Not sure the latter explanation makes complete sense but coming from a player who is looking at you, it is likely to be reasonable. You have hit powerful forehands so it is more likely that there is something about your rotation given your bias to be fairly square to the table that doesn't support power.

But the issue with having the right footwork to play a forehand from a backhand stance is a common problem with backhand players at every level. It's why even forehand dominant players who want to transition to two winged looping never really become two-winged. Also why if I was developing a kid, I would teach that footwork very early.

it may be the Japanese school, but when near the table, the coaches teach me to keep more the two feet on the same line (during drills / fast rallies), to make the transition BH/FH easier. use of the body will compensate.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Hopefully, they will learn enough to make them kinder if they have to coach another learner for money.

Mike is actually pretty good with problem solving how to adapt and adjust teaching for different people. He doesn't really think of himself as a coach or present what he does with me when he hits with me as coaching. But he is still pretty good at the idea of sorting out how to get from A to B as a process adapted to the player in front of him.

It might be that Ernesto Ebuen (one of Mike's main coaches when he was coming up) had a bunch of students who were older gents that he really helped decently. So Mike may have gleaned that the process was different for adult learners.


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[NextLevel]

it may be the Japanese school, but when near the table, the coaches teach me to keep more the two feet on the same line (during drills / fast rallies), to make the transition BH/FH easier. use of the body will compensate.

It's the modern approach. But the specific issues I am talking about show up when a backhand player after hitting back hands gets a ball to the wide forehand. Most players reach for the ball and are lucky to stay in the point with any quality. Brett tried his best to improve what I did to the degreeb my knees would permit.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

Of course one must be quick on his feet when the opponent moves you from one side to the other. Another trick that can help is to try to get the ball at the bounce even if that means reaching for it with the arm straight. It might seem counterintuitive to take the ball early when you are late but if the ball bounces you have actually more to travel...

It takes a new mindset to be focused enough, see well the ball and try to get those balls early but that's the solution.

For a long time I was struggling coming back from FH to BH during drills. I don't think I'm moving so much faster. It's more that I'm able to take the ball early. Even if it bounces at the end of the table take it at the bounce.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Carl's spyphoney sez Next Level is building a Weapon of MASS Destruction of hiz own...

I have heard it has a name.


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[NextLevel]

Curious who that professor is - I think I would've run into him by now (and likely did, just did not know where he works/teaches))

I think my facts were wrong - he is not a professor at MIT. But you know who he is - the old man VS.

 

[NextLevel]

@carl

Super jealous of the crowd you get to play with. Lots of insight from high level players is awesome to recieve.

We all experience "discoveries" that help our game and make us better. Maybe a new way to return a ball or create better whip mechanics or just some tiny things we notice that make us a bit better. My question is, do you guys share all these discoveries with everyone, or are there some you keep to yourself?


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I tend to share what I can because
1) I coach,
2) I need my practice partners to get better so I can get better,
3) I need to test some of my findings and
4) I like to see people get better.
But there aren't as many secrets as people think there are.

 

[ttmonster]

... and thanks to you for sharing all that ... even though sometimes they are bitter pills to swalllow , I have learnt a lot from what you have posted over time ... no questions ...

what Carl is saying also makes sense, there are some things which are specific and unless you are a coach yourself , taking the specific instructions to something generic that will help everybody and won't cause confusion and counteract with somebody's development is not easy ...

however, its also true , its not easy to get good table tennis players to spill their beans , the culture might be a little different in the east coast , but in bay area I have seldom seen people are forthcoming .. may be I got the wrong crowd , but since here there is a ridiculous amount of money in coaching most things are hush hush , I just keep hearing rumors that 2400+ people have their secret hideout to practice etc ....

again .. the ratio of kids to adults is very lopsided here ... so that may be also one of the reasons ... but I have generally found table tennis players to be very individualistic ... since the team game culture is not there like Europe , there is less camaraderie going around .... and may be that is the reason you see more active US based adult table tennis players in this forum .. especially ones who are mature to figure out ultimately sharing does not diminish your skills or chances to win against somebody , if you are good enough to win you should be good enough to figure out way out ...

I tend to share what I can because
1) I coach,
2) I need my practice partners to get better so I can get better,
3) I need to test some of my findings and
4) I like to see people get better.
But there aren't as many secrets as people think there are.

 

[RajaLoopah]

Aaaaand I went from Carbon to allwood and these are the things I found
- My contact had minimal brush
- Few balls flew over the net
- My timing was awful (all due to carbon power reliance)
- and lastly I felt the ball again not the little artificial feel
FEEL AGAIN

 

[pgpg]

I think my facts were wrong - he is not a professor at MIT. But you know who he is - the old man VS.

Ah - got it. Yes, I know him - actually we played for the first time ever at the tournament last week. Lost 0:3 but it was respectable, 10, 5 and 9 (and I was up 9:7 in the last game , but...).