Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

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Carl, I know that words are cheap, but a lot of improvement has happened the past few months. No, I probably can't loop any 1600+ quality ball, but I can spin lower level shots probably around my level of quality. I couldn't do that before.

I'm also holding the racket much looser and more with the fingers than before, and starting to get some whip. So I am inclined to think that my strokes have improved.

I don't understand why you somehow think that I can't improve at all. I'm not incapable of learning, Carl. And the improvement isn't that big either, I'm not suddenly hitting semi-pro levels of spin or anything.
 
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Carl, I know that words are cheap, but a lot of improvement has happened the past few months. No, I probably can't loop any 1600+ quality ball, but I can spin lower level shots probably around my level of quality. I couldn't do that before.

I'm also holding the racket much looser and more with the fingers than before, and starting to get some whip. So I am inclined to think that my strokes have improved.

I don't understand why you somehow think that I can't improve at all. I'm not incapable of learning, Carl. And the improvement isn't that big either, I'm not suddenly hitting semi-pro levels of spin or anything.

Hey Archo, wanna know why I also tend to believe that from the tire-scratching post until now you haven't actually improved your strokes? Read this quotes once again :

Shuki said:
Only time I've ever experienced "too much" grazing, is when I graze ever so slightly that the rubber doesn't grab the ball at all. I just call that missing the ball even though it made a tiny bit of contact. And it's always near the bottom of my raquet.
Lower level players look at me confused when this happens like "what happened?" and I just tell them I missed.

Archosaurus said:
Well this is funny.

I thought about my prior issue a bit based on what was discussed, and it's *mostly* fixed itself. I can't really tell you what has happened apart from "It feels better". I think my angle is somewhat more closed, but I can't say for sure. What is certain is that something has changed. I can brush loop a lot better now.

Shuki has pointed the reason of the tire-scratching sound - a too fine contact. And what happened next? The issue has fixed by itself and you say that your racket angle now is more closed.

Here is what I'll tell you about this - a too fine contact happens when the angle of your racket is actually too closed or the motion is too vertical. What would happen in any of these situations if you would've close the racket angle even more is that you would either hit near the ball or you would hit with the edge.

Sorry, but it's again a non-sense.

I wasn't actually going to talk about this because I'm waiting for a video, but man, after what you've said you're still asking why Carl doesn't quite believe in your improvement! You may be improving, but certainly not by doing what you say on this forum you are doing.
 
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Cornel, do you really think you can't brush too finely if the angle is very close to 90 degrees ie: vertical? Have you never barely hit the ball with a very open racket face when looping and just had it slide off?

EDIT: My mistake, missed the too vertical.

Yes, my stroke was probably too vertical. I have closed the angle just a little bit and due to that I swing just a little bit more forward.

I think I will stop posting here until I move to a place with a club, and start posting video. Otherwise too many misunderstandings happen.
 
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Carl, I know that words are cheap, but a lot of improvement has happened the past few months. No, I probably can't loop any 1600+ quality ball, but I can spin lower level shots probably around my level of quality. I couldn't do that before.

I'm also holding the racket much looser and more with the fingers than before, and starting to get some whip. So I am inclined to think that my strokes have improved.

I don't understand why you somehow think that I can't improve at all. I'm not incapable of learning, Carl. And the improvement isn't that big either, I'm not suddenly hitting semi-pro levels of spin or anything.

Sorry Archo. I couldn't resist. I am sure you are improving. But this post:

What is certain is that something has changed. I can brush loop a lot better now.

......but my forehand confidence has improved. Long, half long, fast, slow, spinny, dead, doesn't matter. Anything a non-coached person can throw at me is game. Even sidespin is possible at will.

That really entertained me and in light of how many times your technique has magically improved and gotten better so that you make quotes like that one right after you have been asked to post video. So I just couldn't resist the idea of having a little fun with some of the ideas and theories you presented.


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says what [IMG]
Carl, understand the relative experience.

If your technique improves a lot at the low level I am, it's a BIG improvement. And it's no feat to be able to spin anything that a sub 1500 player throws at you, I think. Indeed what I'm saying is happening.

Now, can I loop like a 1400 player? Well, maybe close. Can I loop like a 1800 player? I don't think so. 2000 player? No.

Can I loop? Well, yeah, somewhat.

And it's fine if you have some fun at my expense. I get the humor. Just understand that it's easy to be misunderstood via the medium of text.
 
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@arch, @ cornel

It could be a difference in your strokes. Arch likes a big swing so he's likely going very up with little forward motion so that open face could very well be missing more than the closed face raquet. If he closes the raquet more he may actually be going forward more and could likely be getting more contact. Just giving him the benefit of the doubt.

I understand you guys want video and a lot of what he says doesnt seem to be adding up. But do you guys notice that he feels like he's being attacked? Carl noticed the defense mechanism's he's using and there's probably a reason for that. There's a fine line between helpful critique and harsh criticism which is different for everyone.
 
says what [IMG]
@arch, @ cornel

It could be a difference in your strokes. Arch likes a big swing so he's likely going very up with little forward motion so that open face could very well be missing more than the closed face raquet. If he closes the raquet more he may actually be going forward more and could likely be getting more contact. Just giving him the benefit of the doubt.

I understand you guys want video and a lot of what he says doesnt seem to be adding up. But do you guys notice that he feels like he's being attacked? Carl noticed the defense mechanism's he's using and there's probably a reason for that. There's a fine line between helpful critique and harsh criticism which is different for everyone.
True. Especially the point about racket angles. I think I first understood how to really topspin when I produced some spin with the racket angle around 45 - 50 deg or so. Up to then I was just banging into the ball slightly with a very vertical swing and very small angle of closing.

Without seeing video of my prior play when I played like that, you figured that out. That's pretty good. Have you gone through the same or observed it in other beginners? As a sidenote I've since then made my swing a bit smaller. It's still pretty big but it's small enough to be comfortable and easy for me.

I couldn't feel the ball AT ALL not too long ago, but I'm recently starting to understand why beginners should play with a wood blade. Carl's suggestion for the Allround Evo was spot on and I'm just enjoying it more and more as I get a little better. I couldn't appreciate it so much a few months ago, but I can now.
 
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@arch, @ cornel

It could be a difference in your strokes. Arch likes a big swing so he's likely going very up with little forward motion so that open face could very well be missing more than the closed face raquet. If he closes the raquet more he may actually be going forward more and could likely be getting more contact. Just giving him the benefit of the doubt.

I understand you guys want video and a lot of what he says doesnt seem to be adding up. But do you guys notice that he feels like he's being attacked? Carl noticed the defense mechanism's he's using and there's probably a reason for that. There's a fine line between helpful critique and harsh criticism which is different for everyone.

Yes, I agree that I may have been harsh in my last post, but I think you will agree that correcting the too fine contact by closing the racket angle without mentioning that the stroke has also became more horizontal-oriented is kind of non-sense and would lead to the consequences I have mentioned.
 
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Cornel, I try to keep my swing plane about the same as my racket angle. Of course it's just a little bit more open than what my swing angle is, but very close.

I thought it was obvious that my stroke angle would follow the blade angle change. Of course if I change my angle more closed and swing towards it, the stroke will go more forward. I should have mentioned it, my bad.
 
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Anyway, I think further discussing this topic won't be useful. I'm sorry for being harsh, Archo. Of course I am not trying to attack you in any way, but any post about technique issues you are making without video evidence is useless and over-complicated, sometimes I have to read your posts 2-3 times to understand them properly. There is no need to wait till you move to a place with a club - just make sure you have a decent camera and film only yourself playing(if the partner feels uncomfortable about being part of it).
 
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This latest argument reminded me of the quote that 'writing about music is like dancing about architecture'.

TT is the music here, obviously.

Good one :) One could argue that playing tt is like a dance.

@ Archo if you want to generate a lot of spin you should try to spin the ball tangential and in the angel the ball is coming at you. I am experimenting with that and different contacts at the moment.
 
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Arch is a lot like me in the way that he posts his problems or some kind of game issue that he has a theory on. People will reply and he'll think of counter arguments whilst still agreeing with their replys.

We don't realize that we come across as ignorant or that we look like we're arguing with what we see until we look back later. In the moment we just want to get more and more information as to why one way is less correct and more reasons why our point is incorrect. We're young and schools teach us to question everything these days.

Video may help solve some questions easier but the effort it takes to make a video... While not so much to do every once in a while, have you thought about how many questions arch has had? That's a lot of videos to make where it's possible he could get a sufficient answer through text if the right person understands what he's asking. With a forum of hundreds of people there's bound to be someone who will understand.

Yes I know, I'm agreeing with you guys that video would be helpful and he may have why you see to be delusions of changing and getting things right instantly whenever a problem arises. But isn't it possible that he has actually fixed his issue a good amount since the previous day? I know I often get issues fixed in a day with the help of others when that's my main focus. Not completely fixed, but not a huge issue anymore either.


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Arch is a lot like me in the way that he posts his problems or some kind of game issue that he has a theory on. People will reply and he'll think of counter arguments whilst still agreeing with their replys.

We don't realize that we come across as ignorant or that we look like we're arguing with what we see until we look back later. In the moment we just want to get more and more information as to why one way is less correct and more reasons why our point is incorrect. We're young and schools teach us to question everything these days.

Video may help solve some questions easier but the effort it takes to make a video... While not so much to do every once in a while, have you thought about how many questions arch has had? That's a lot of videos to make where it's possible he could get a sufficient answer through text if the right person understands what he's asking. With a forum of hundreds of people there's bound to be someone who will understand.

Yes I know, I'm agreeing with you guys that video would be helpful and he may have why you see to be delusions of changing and getting things right instantly whenever a problem arises. But isn't it possible that he has actually fixed his issue a good amount since the previous day? I know I often get issues fixed in a day with the help of others when that's my main focus. Not completely fixed, but not a huge issue anymore either.


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Of course it is possible. What you need to realize is that all of us have different levels of familiarity with Archo personally and with similar personalities throughout our life.

First of all, making video is easy and cheap these days. Whether you decide to do it and whether you decide to post it is another issue.

Secondly, Archo has made a lot of delusional posts about his level and when he is parroting others while making them, he often makes them without referencing his source material (plagiarism).

Lastly, everyone is different and I accept that. I have been doing this internet TT thing for 5 years in December (much shorter than Carl or DerEchte). Trust me when I say that I do not know anyone who really objectively understands and analyzes themselves. Lack of video leaves this weakness rabidly unchecked. Part of the request for video is to ensure that Archo is even looking at himself. But maybe there are match scores and performance results that Archo is using to assess himself. Fair enough. Let's leave aside the fact that those things might not be technical in nature - does Archo share any of these things? As far as we know, isn't he the best player where he plays?

I have asked lots of higher level players loads of questions over the internet. I can't remember any of them significantly helping me. Brett had to see my video to make detailed corrections and send pictures of the corrections he wanted. And even then, we still have lots of stuff we want to work on when he comes into my area at the end of this month.

For someone like me who has built up skills over 5 years, and that is massively discounting the skills I had as a high level Nigerian basement player, some of what Archo writes is puzzling on the scale of what happens in a week. And how it translates to match play can be even more puzzling. Here is one of my favorite blog posts of all time - look at how it details that a skill can take 2 years to show up fully in matches even after one starts learning it.

http://www.samsondubina.com/coaching/13-stages

I have been formally working on my forehand seriously for over a year and half now. Every day, small things happen and there is growth and regression. Wanna know how Archo sounds to me sometimes? I didn't think so.
 
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Well, NL, you're far ahead of me in essentially everything in this game. I know from experience that at a point, things just slow down. You make discoveries, but they're not so huge anymore because you're not correcting wrongs, you're mostly improving upon something that's mostly right. Getting more spin vs learning to actually even intercept the ball and make contact, for example.

If a baby learns to walk, will it not be a relatively bigger advancement than if a top level sprinter cuts his 100m time by a hundredth or two?
 
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Well, NL, you're far ahead of me in essentially everything in this game. I know from experience that at a point, things just slow down. You make discoveries, but they're not so huge anymore because you're not correcting wrongs, you're mostly improving upon something that's mostly right. Getting more spin vs learning to actually even intercept the ball and make contact, for example.

If a baby learns to walk, will it not be a relatively bigger advancement than if a top level sprinter cuts his 100m time by a hundredth or two?

Sounds legit, but would you believe someone who will tell you that their baby can already walk but doesn't want to show at least a video of his baby? I understand that maybe you don't have the video now and have already said that you'll provide it later, but why do you keep insisting that we recognize that you have improved without evidence? Sorry, but this reminds me of the discussion about that "revolutionary game-changing grip", but at least it's not on such an aggresive tone.
 
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Well, NL, you're far ahead of me in essentially everything in this game. I know from experience that at a point, things just slow down. You make discoveries, but they're not so huge anymore because you're not correcting wrongs, you're mostly improving upon something that's mostly right. Getting more spin vs learning to actually even intercept the ball and make contact, for example.

If a baby learns to walk, will it not be a relatively bigger advancement than if a top level sprinter cuts his 100m time by a hundredth or two?

Archo, other than the fact that none of this discusses *objective* evidence of your improvement, you forget that I have only being playing club table tennis for 5 years. So I still remember when I thought I knew stuff and I really didn't understand jack. Moreover, there are many people that do not improve. I know you are young and the progression is for things to change as you get older. There are kids I used to play 5 years ago who either don't play anymore or who still play in lower events.
 
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I've recorded maybe 3 or 4 videos of myself. And often think about recording another. It's not hard to do, but it is a good amount of effort that I'd PREFER not to do. I already carry 2 bags with me and adding a tripod to the mix is usually what stops me from bringing my camera.

I disagree almost entirely with the part of it taking 2 years to put a stroke into your game. For me, I'm 80% games 20% drills. Being a game player once I get a drill down that stroke goes into my game extremely quickly. Like within a couple weeks it's something I'll do regularly in games.

But getting that stroke right in drills takes me a lot longer. I can't get a new stroke right in drills for months on end. I'm the reverse of most people's issue with getting a new stroke.

Lastly, how often have you tried new things against a bad player? I'm willing to guess those new things or changes worked out pretty damn well and you got pretty confident in those strokes. I for one, feel like a fantastic player when I play someone bad because I just don't miss anything if I try. Then as soon as I play someone closer to my level or higher, the light shines on me and I realize it's a lot tougher to do any of the things I was doing to the bad player.

This is my perspective and experiences, I'm sure they're different than other's. I'm by no means a good player but I FEEL like I know what I'm talking about. I'm sure with more experience I'll look back and think. "Wow I was an idiot when I was at that level" (1760 usatt for those who don't know)


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So I still remember when I thought I knew stuff and I really didn't understand jack.

Saw this after my post, can't reiterate this enough. Arch we can easily remember a year ago and how much worse we were. We probably think wow I was dumb then. But that doesn't mean we know anything now. I'm confident in 2 years, Nextlevel will be thinking he didn't know nearly as much as he does right now. And this will continue to be the case as we all improve.

Just try to keep in mind, the HUGE difference in skill between me and Nextlevel should be enough on its own to just shut up and agree with everything he says. The difference is so much, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference in playing him vs me playing a professional. And I'd damn well listen to a professional.


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Sounds legit, but would you believe someone who will tell you that their baby can already walk but doesn't want to show at least a video of his baby? I understand that maybe you don't have the video now and have already said that you'll provide it later, but why do you keep insisting that we recognize that you have improved without evidence? Sorry, but this reminds me of the discussion about that "revolutionary game-changing grip", but at least it's not on such an aggresive tone.

As an aside, I also coach. I try to get my students better. It can be an extremely painful process because I am coaching people who play once or twice a week and have lives with family, but who want to play well. All of them have health issues of one kind or another. All of them are over 35 and some of them are almost 70. I am yet to teach them anything that I do not want to revise the next lesson after seeing them repeat what I showed them the last time. I keep telling them things that they cannot see and I have to send them the video of my lessons so they can see what I am complaining about. One person I mentor/coach who is about the same level as me, we keep discussing the amount of crap we need to work on. And we see the beginners or lower level players who work hard and who are not rapidly improving every day because their coach is not focusing on what gives them the biggest reward.

I have to keep telling my students when they complain about their progress that they are making good progress for the amount of time they play, even though the progress is invisible them. It is by asking them to do things now that they could not do two months ago that they realize how much they have improved. But none of it is easily translating into competitive matches. I keep telling them that in this sport, you have to put in the hours. But you also have to find the right balance between measuring your progress and not asking for crazy results immediately. Learning is still a physical process and you need to build the right connections to make the skill work.

You see, if I was doing what Archo was doing, it would be something like: "last week, I was serving backspin and my ball didn't come back into the net after bouncing twice in the table near the endline - this week, I can serve backspin and my ball will actually bounce close to the endline and come back towards the net."

There, you can see the description of the progress. The reader can then ask if the serve is low etc. Those of us who provide video of have lots of playing experience describe our work this way. We don't come here asking questions about overloaded topsheets or such crap.
 
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