Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[NextLevel]

Well, maybe it isn't too necessary for the way he plays but the general thinking behind what I said is that the quicker you can get in, the more aggressive or quick of a return you can make to put the server under more pressure. If you are stepping in from too far that is creating a lot of time and it would be very difficult to put the third ball under any pressure. That may be getting into the weeds a bit too much as it may only be relevant if the opponent has a strong and consistent third ball anyways.

Probably more of a concern is how far he is stepping back after the short push. If his return got dropped short again he will be way out of position. But I'm guessing that is more of a constraint of the robot and the depth that it is shooting the balls.

It is not so much about how quickly you get in in my view but how quickly you get out and if you are saying that if he was closer he would get in quicker that is possible. But I can't argue he is too far if he is getting in with one step for an extremely short ball.

Your latter point I 100% agree with. If there was a drill where he was forced to stay at the table and push short again and sometimes get back to play the loop that would help. But I don't see a problem with what he is doing now. If he jumped back and then had to hop into the backswing for a loop or go back on for a short push that would be ideal but it all depends on what he is trying to do. The. backhand loop would need to be more squat and thrust to accommodate this but ultimately all of this doesn't make his execution something reasonable. It is all about what he wants to do.

 

[Der_Echte]

Well, maybe it isn't too necessary for the way he plays but the general thinking behind what I said is that the quicker you can get in, the more aggressive or quick of a return you can make to put the server under more pressure. If you are stepping in from too far that is creating a lot of time and it would be very difficult to put the third ball under any pressure. That may be getting into the weeds a bit too much... (Der_Echte Comment: So what? Sometimes weeds are good, SugaD would agree about weed(s). as it may only be relevant if the opponent has a strong and consistent third ball anyways.

Probably more of a concern is how far he is stepping back after the short push. Der_Echte Comment: This is the GOLDEN NUGGET we need to examine more closely. If his return got dropped short again he will be way out of position. But I'm guessing that is more of a constraint of the robot and the depth that it is shooting the balls.

I am with Next Level on his initial position on serve receive as being totally possible. In Korea, this distance is pretty much the distance the coaches at clubs (these coaches are ex-players ranging from TTR 2000 amateurs to former pros). They have their way and just about all the big time Korean coaches say there is no single correct answer in TT.

I see your point about being able to get there, and the Koreans try to train you to see it early and step in. There is a very good reason Korean coaches start out even beginners to train like that.

I am WITH YOU all the way on your good observation that after he does the short push, he steps back to a position that is IMO too far back. Korean coaches agree and they had me try to stay closer to the table after the first touch.

The obvious benefit you have already mentioned - you will be ready to step back in easier and be ready to do that earlier (as opposed to stepping back 1m from table).

The obvious negative about that far from table position after first short touch is that it is much more difficult to handle another short touch.

My comment (directly related to what Jeff is trying to do in the drill) is related to his BH opening. If the ball comes half long or 15 cm long, it is damn difficult from that position to make a quality, high percentage BH topspin opening. (likely gunna be a failure more than not on that ball)

I believe that if the position after the short touch is closer to the table (as ryu81 advocates), there are a LOT more options to handle the next ball with quality and decisiveness. Look at the possible returns on the 3rd ball and what one can do positioned closer to the table ready.

- short return right back at you... All it takes is one short quick step to get to the ball. One can now FLIP (and have more ANGLES AVAILABLE) or touch it back short again... or push it fast/deep... or push it away at an angle and get opponent attacking and out of position to win point with a block or counter... so many options available if positioned close to the table. nearly everyone of these options are way more difficult and lower percentage and not as good angles or quick play when positioned again 1m from the table.

- Long underspin slow ball... you are ready to heavy spin, medium loop, or fast loop attack. (why do another push, unless player slipped and is lying on the floor after bumping head seeing only stars?) And all these attacking options have more leverage, better angles, better quality on the shot, better landing prcentage, more threatening... positive in nearly every way.

- Fast push deep coming at you like a cartoon... if ready and crouched, all is needed to do is stay down, let ball bounce deep, and explode upwards striking ball on the rise forward at endline or a touch behind it if ball was real deep... result is a QUICK on the rise shot high percentage so damn quick it is trouble on its own... and you are not gunna miss it if you are crouched and wait. Sure, if positioned further back, you have more time, but you have to move more to the side for position and your possble strike angles are now reduced. Much easier to make a quick short step when closer to table as there is less ground to cover to establish center of that small strike zone on BH wing.

- short push is flipped... you take a quick step and counter or defend. You have angles and quickness working for you. if you are 1m from table, you have a lot more stepping to do, takes longer, opponent has more time, your angles are reduced... so better to be close to table after short push.

The big reason Korean coaches advocate being nearly 1m from table on serve recive is the STEP IN and timing at impact really help out that first shot a lot. Plus, it gives you ability to PUNISH long serves easier.

I explained the reasons why Korean coaches like player to be closer to table after a short push.

As for ryu81 "Getting into the weeds" and "Changing the conversation of the thread"... so what-f-ing-ever. The forum NEEDS this kind of discussion on why we do stuff plus and minus of every situation. I call it good citizenship. IMO, I would WELKOM ryu81 to make MORE comments like this.

 

[zyu81]

It is not so much about how quickly you get in in my view but how quickly you get out and if you are saying that if he was closer he would get in quicker that is possible. But I can't argue he is too far if he is getting in with one step for an extremely short ball.

Your latter point I 100% agree with. If there was a drill where he was forced to stay at the table and push short again and sometimes get back to play the loop that would help. But I don't see a problem with what he is doing now. If he jumped back and then had to hop into the backswing for a loop or go back on for a short push that would be ideal but it all depends on what he is trying to do. The. backhand loop would need to be more squat and thrust to accommodate this but ultimately all of this doesn't make his execution something reasonable. It is all about what he wants to do.

Let me add a little bit of nuance to what I am trying to say regarding point 1 (my recommendation that he should start from closer in to the table).

One of the core fundamentals of short push is that you want your body over the table/close to the ball as well as your arm/hand not being too far extended from the head/body, i.e. not reaching too much. You do this of course by stepping in and under the table. However, looking at the video, his arm is in full extension which is not ideal, likely because he is too far back and therefore has to overcompensate on his step-in and reach with the arm too much. This starting position might work if you are on the taller or longer-legged side but it does not look like the poster is, so with his arm that far extended he is not going to have good control of the return. So of course your initial position needs to be tailored to your height/leg length. Additionally, too exaggerated of a step can make body stability difficult to achieve.

 

[zyu81]

I am with Next Level on his initial position on serve receive as being totally possible. In Korea, this distance is pretty much the distance the coaches at clubs (these coaches are ex-players ranging from TTR 2000 amateurs to former pros). They have their way and just about all the big time Korean coaches say there is no single correct answer in TT.

I see your point about being able to get there, and the Koreans try to train you to see it early and step in. There is a very good reason Korean coaches start out even beginners to train like that.

I am WITH YOU all the way on your good observation that after he does the short push, he steps back to a position that is IMO too far back. Korean coaches agree and they had me try to stay closer to the table after the first touch.

The obvious benefit you have already mentioned - you will be ready to step back in easier and be ready to do that earlier (as opposed to stepping back 1m from table).

The obvious negative about that far from table position after first short touch is that it is much more difficult to handle another short touch.

My comment (directly related to what Jeff is trying to do in the drill) is related to his BH opening. If the ball comes half long or 15 cm long, it is damn difficult from that position to make a quality, high percentage BH topspin opening. (likely gunna be a failure more than not on that ball)

I believe that if the position after the short touch is closer to the table (as ryu81 advocates), there are a LOT more options to handle the next ball with quality and decisiveness. Look at the possible returns on the 3rd ball and what one can do positioned closer to the table ready.

- short return right back at you... All it takes is one short quick step to get to the ball. One can now FLIP (and have more ANGLES AVAILABLE) or touch it back short again... or push it fast/deep... or push it away at an angle and get opponent attacking and out of position to win point with a block or counter... so many options available if positioned close to the table. nearly everyone of these options are way more difficult and lower percentage and not as good angles or quick play when positioned again 1m from the table.

- Long underspin slow ball... you are ready to heavy spin, medium loop, or fast loop attack. (why do another push, unless player slipped and is lying on the floor after bumping head seeing only stars?) And all these attacking options have more leverage, better angles, better quality on the shot, better landing prcentage, more threatening... positive in nearly every way.

- Fast push deep coming at you like a cartoon... if ready and crouched, all is needed to do is stay down, let ball bounce deep, and explode upwards striking ball on the rise forward at endline or a touch behind it if ball was real deep... result is a QUICK on the rise shot high percentage so damn quick it is trouble on its own... and you are not gunna miss it if you are crouched and wait. Sure, if positioned further back, you have more time, but you have to move more to the side for position and your possble strike angles are now reduced. Much easier to make a quick short step when closer to table as there is less ground to cover to establish center of that small strike zone on BH wing.

- short push is flipped... you take a quick step and counter or defend. You have angles and quickness working for you. if you are 1m from table, you have a lot more stepping to do, takes longer, opponent has more time, your angles are reduced... so better to be close to table after short push.

The big reason Korean coaches advocate being nearly 1m from table on serve recive is the STEP IN and timing at impact really help out that first shot a lot. Plus, it gives you ability to PUNISH long serves easier.

I explained the reasons why Korean coaches like player to be closer to table after a short push.

As for ryu81 "Getting into the weeds" and "Changing the conversation of the thread"... so what-f-ing-ever. The forum NEEDS this kind of discussion on why we do stuff plus and minus of every situation. I call it good citizenship. IMO, I would WELKOM ryu81 to make MORE comments like this.

Thanks for sharing. I wonder if said Korean coaches advocate that for adult players as well as juniors as well? My guess is the height or leg length will come into play here to some degree. I am not saying Jeff needs to step all in the way in to the table. But it appears that he is 1m+ away from the table and I think given that he looks to not be very tall (sorry if this is getting too personal) I think he'd benefit from reducing that distance just a bit (but not all the way) for the reasons in my post above this one.

 

[Der_Echte]

Hi ryu,

In Korean clubs, it is almost 100 percent adults. Usually, if kids train in TT, it is because the school identified them as an athlete and has hired an ex-pro to turn their small gym room or multi-purpose room into a pro-TT training center. In amateur Korean TT, those who received professional taining outside an amateur TT club are prohibited from playing in amateur tourneys. They play only in the "pro" division of a national level amateru tourney.

It happens, but it is very rare to see a kid training in an amateur TT club in Korea. Why? It is because theere is a chronic shortage of University and parents employ EVERY POSSIBLE means to give their kid an edge... to include an ADDITIONAL FOUR to FIVE HOURS of EXTRA NIGHT SCHOOL classes that are in reality, very high level University prep courses...Korean parents start the kids out on this course of study at age 3 (night school in daytime BEFORE they are eligible for public school) and continue all the way to 18.

This is why Kids are very rarely doing anything except school related stuff, because their primary purpose in life is to be a student getting ready, a double full time occupation. The only time kids really play sports is when they are identified as an ATHELETE... and then their mission is not study to gain entry into university (except for sport) but to be a pro athlete to bring glory to the school.

In my club in Korea, the four years I was there, I saw kids there only twice. Once, it was a parent giving kids in a pro training some extra training (because coach was a former top pro) Once, it was anoth kid in pro training, because the kids parents wanted her to become a chopper... and the coach at my club was a former pro chopper.

The general rule Korean coaches use is for player to extend bat arm with bat and touch the table with end of bat. if a player does this, they are pretty much 1m behind table and where coaches want them to be.

Again, none of this means it is "the right way" and there is no songle correct answer in TT, or at least I believe that.

 

[Der_Echte]

Here is a vid for reference. This is a tourney for high level middle school players... aged 13-14.

 

[Der_Echte]

You see the pro-trained Korean kids now play closer to table on receive, as the recent pro-level coaching advice is to stay closer to table and BH flip just about every serve they can get too... and other end -expect that and counter as hard as possible as a response.

 

[JeffM]

Thanks for the discussions around my video! (sometimes I get 0, sometimes so many comments haha)

The 'short serve' is EXTREMELY short.. I have not fiddled with the height of the robot, as I think if i increase the height, I may be able to make it longer yet still a short serve. But with additional height for the robot, all the other balls have the risk of being that bit higher. So I haven't been bothered to try change it. At the current fixed height of the robot, it is a limitation if I want it to produce a double bounce serve. I'm not tall definitely, hence why I need to have a stretched arm despite leaning low over the table and stepping all the way in underneath the table... But i think it is still a good exercise, because if I can reach that (extremely short ball) and control it most of the time, I should be able to do it for serves in real life that can't actually be that short / low.

In regards to my stance distance from the table, yes, I agree it can be closer to the table. But with the level of players that I come into contact with, I am confident to say that 100% of them cannot produce that a short backspin serve that close to the net. Most of the serves will be half long / long, small % being short serves with 2 bounces, but nothing that I can't step in to handle. Hence I wouldn't be forcing myself to start closer to the table just for this drill when I am not going to do it in real life. (When and if I manage to dodge all injuries in the future and improve to the next level where they do more short serves than long serves, maybe then I will practice standing closer).

Good discussion

 

[Der_Echte]

Regardless of your initial position (I have said it is possible to play 1st ball this distance)(if you step in time and rythm)(which you showed us you did 3x in a row)... you still made three consecutive very short touch returns... and I did not see you do this in the past, so I said what I said about your improvement there.

MAYBE, if you oppnents are just pounding the ball or hitting it hard enough for it to come to you when you are reurned to that 1 meter distance from table... then maybe you want these kinds of rallies and counter-attacking chances... maybe it works into your skill set and you do that well.

That would be one arguement for getting back to a 1m distance.

Myself, as an offensive powerhouse wanna-be player... I have better opportunities playing the 4th ball closer to the table if my return is good enough to prevent opponet's attack.

... but yeah, the comments zhu81 initiated with his observations are absolutely the kind of things improving players should be thinking about and deciding for themselves what to take from it.

 

[NextLevel]

The one thing I will say is that the shorter the serve, the easier it is to touch short...

 

[SkySowers]

Hi everyone! I'm sharing a short compilation of my backhand. I used to not have a backhand (except for a block) so I taught myself to do BH open-ups and counter-hitting. I'm now more comfortable in using it and don't mind when my opponent puts the ball on that side. If you guys have any suggestions on what drills to do to improve my BH even more, please let me know. It still needs a lot of work but I'm glad I can use it now as a weapon.

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

 

[zyu81]

The one thing I will say is that the shorter the serve, the easier it is to touch short...

In my experience it is still ideal to get your body and head as close to the ball as possible, i.e. not having to extend the arm and torso to the degree that Jeff is currently doing. If he starts from closer up he has more distance he can close out, but as I predicted and he has said, most players of his level probably won't make this as relevant. It is something that becomes more relevant at a higher level when the milliseconds really matter more on short services etc. That said I don't think what he is doing right now is drastically wrong and I am talking about minor not major changes.

 

[zyu81]

Hi everyone! I'm sharing a short compilation of my backhand. I used to not have a backhand (except for a block) so I taught myself to do BH open-ups and counter-hitting. I'm now more comfortable in using it and don't mind when my opponent puts the ball on that side. If you guys have any suggestions on what drills to do to improve my BH even more, please let me know. It still needs a lot of work but I'm glad I can use it now as a weapon.

View this content on Instagram

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I think a training rather than a points highlight video would make it easier to break things down. But at an initial look it seems like you are prone to getting jammed in the middle because you move your arm before your feet.

 

[SkySowers]

I think a training rather than a points highlight video would make it easier to break things down. But at an initial look it seems like you are prone to getting jammed in the middle because you move your arm before your feet.

Middle point has been a huge problem for me. I am slower now so it's also harder to move my legs. I also tend to get ready on the BH side for an attack rather than having a neutral position. But yes, I'm always jammed in the middle and definitely would love some tips. Thank you!

 

[Der_Echte]

I can say that if a right handed player is dead-set on attacking with hte BH... and the ball is coming right at the middle... on thing that player can do is take a quick step with the right foot forward at 45 degrees, plant and hit... because when a player does that, the ball is back in the center of the strike zone for BH... and the player has every option... and the player can now hit with more power as the step is creating kinetic energy that can be channeled into the shot if passed along the chain.

I know Korean coaches are all crazy about stepping around using the footwork training they pound into your head... but sometimes, we as players are dead-set on using that good BH of ours... no matter what in some points... so an adjustment to keep on time on balance with full options is to do a quick short step forward to the right with right foot and hit that winner... or shot that gets the ball to finish.

This one step footwork is pretty easy to train. You just have partner hit ball out of hand to your middle when you are 1m off table... and you do a quick step and use that BH... after a while, it gets instinctive when you see yourself getting jammed in the middle.

modern players are pretty much training this anyway... on serve stepping to the right over the table to do a strong banana flip of a serve. Same concept that is already accepted. Players are dead-set on a BH flip... so they step t the right (and under the table for hte short ball) and do that BH shot. Being on time on step on balance allows recovery.

it isn't a terrible option and still gives a player options (because you are not off balance because of the step into position) and you recover to continue the pressure if needed.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

Thanks for the discussions around my video! (sometimes I get 0, sometimes so many comments haha)

Same for everyone, got 0 this time...

 

[Der_Echte]

Hey, I pounded the like button (I think)... it is worth something.

 

[JeffM]

Regardless of your initial position (I have said it is possible to play 1st ball this distance)(if you step in time and rythm)(which you showed us you did 3x in a row)... you still made three consecutive very short touch returns... and I did not see you do this in the past, so I said what I said about your improvement there.

MAYBE, if you oppnents are just pounding the ball or hitting it hard enough for it to come to you when you are reurned to that 1 meter distance from table... then maybe you want these kinds of rallies and counter-attacking chances... maybe it works into your skill set and you do that well.

That would be one arguement for getting back to a 1m distance.

Myself, as an offensive powerhouse wanna-be player... I have better opportunities playing the 4th ball closer to the table if my return is good enough to prevent opponet's attack.

... but yeah, the comments zhu81 initiated with his observations are absolutely the kind of things improving players should be thinking about and deciding for themselves what to take from it.

Thanks Der_Echte.
I didn't think I jumped back to 1m behind the table, but as I did have to step quite far into the table for the short push, it may looked that way.
Either way, I have found previously that I often get squeezed too much when ppl do a fast deep backhand push, so I think practicing backing off helps. I also found it awkward to hit backspin pushes when they are too high.

 

[Der_Echte]

Additional positive aspect(s) of doing a quick step and using the BH are these:

- The shot is happening a little earlier, so it is a quicker shot giving opponent less time to react.

- the BH shot can be made with a very short stroke of lower arm... and can be very powerful if struck in the right sequence and firming... this makes it potentially a point ender

- the BH shot is more difficult for opponent to read... there are possibilities of varying the resultant direction of shot by position, depth of zone, amount lower arm moves, and the amount wrist is used or not.

- opponent KNOWS he or she just made you eat a full glass jar of JAM... so opponent isn't really expecting you to do much offensively to the quality ball they just did (finding the middle is supposed to be a pretty good play at any level)... so when you do that quick step with right foot to the right and forward and lower the ahmmer on a hard one... it is shock and awe warfare you just employed.

 

[Der_Echte]

Thanks Der_Echte.
I didn't think I jumped back to 1m behind the table, but as I did have to step quite far into the table for the short push, it may looked that way.
Either way, I have found previously that I often get squeezed too much when ppl do a fast deep backhand push, so I think practicing backing off helps. I also found it awkward to hit backspin pushes when they are too high.

I had mentioned in the earler, really long comments that if a player stays close, even REAL CLOSE to the table, these BH shots are really easy and effective once you have trained them. (You have a top-notch robot capable of shooting a fast/deep underspin of whatever level you choose)

it is only a matter of understanding HOW to do the shot biomechnically (assuming you are in position... and often you are as opponent is TARGETING your body thinking he will jam you into an error) and doing effective practice.

I described what to do for possible repsonses... a medium or fast loop is a good response... especially a fast loop once you get it down. Why? It is FAST and pretty easy to do.

All you really have to do is SEE or REALIZE opponent is trying to jam you deep with fast push... hopefully you are crouched (or it will be EPIC FAIL stuff)... you just get down a touch more (you have more time than you think) WAIT for ball to bounce, and explode up and forward right as ball bounces... since you are taking the ball early, there is MAXIMUM vertical energy... so you do not need to lift the ball... you are catching it and driving it forward...

You will see this a LOT in BH to BH warmup and practice drills amoung elite players and pros (and many junior players training for high performance) They are very close to thet table, they are striking the ball RIGHT OFF THE BOUNCE with a forward motion and are hitting it deep and medium fast or fast... they make it look so damn easy... and it is if the ball comes to your impact zone (which it often does on a fast push right at you)

Your tiny extra crouch and explosion gives you more power on the ball for the fast loop. The timing is real easy, explode up and start swing right at moment of bounce.

Once you get this shot down... opponents are really gunna hate on you.

That is why I say it is "better" to stay near table after making a short push. I say that withthe assumption that you are looking to take over the point on that ball.

Some players have a totally different play style and are way more comfortable countering from distance or using TOUCH to change the ball and let opponent hang themselves.

TTD member (former natl junior player) erm does exactly that... and he does that right at the table too, plus he can play that way off the table.

Scoobie Doo Tsos does that too away from the table. He is much more comfortable managing the spin and pace from someone's attack. He doesn't mind if you attack, he wants it that way.

- opponents are more prone to mistakes going for it (you all saw my earlier vids with Scoobie Doo) (Who actually likes Sylvester)

- He knows he can retrieve about anything, his long one step and crossover to get to wide balls is excellent... and he changes the ball with his touch and opponent makes errors from this

- He is very consistent, he can retrieve or counter ball after ball and win the point with consistency

Scoobie Doo does this at a lever that is 1.5 to 2 levels higher than me... and relatively speaking, Der_Echte is not chopped liver as Americans would say.

Some players (as I mentioned in earlier posts) just want some more time and a little further back gets it. (in many ways, I am like you in that I want max time to see ball and be ready to strike)

I say all that to convey a message that it is NOT a REQUIREMENT to play the prototypical offensive attacking game in amateur TT. Players play to theie strengths... and erm / Scoobie Doo have strengths that allow them to play with teh same step sequence and recovery position you prefer.