Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[OldschoolPenholder]

JM,

If I may I would listen to NL's advice/tips... 2000 player helping you out!

This is the way I approach serves ... TTDers, please feel free to correct/amend/criticize me:

1) Placement - short, medium, long mixed with left, middle, right

2) Speed of Serve as well as Stroke ... may be using non-standard terms ... what I mean is serve fast and serve slow ... but also vary the Rhythm of the Serve, your opponent in 2nd and 3rd games seemed almost always serve fast to your fh ... I felt you should've been able to do something against him then as he became predictable. .. sometimes I'm able to serve fh pendulum to opponent's bh side enough to have them think that, then I vary my Rhythm and see opponent already moving/leaning to his bh, and I serve to his fh for easy ace

3) Spin - no spin, sidespin, topspin, downspin, and sidetop and sidedown

See which gives opponent trouble or gives you easy shots/winners

4) Remember which serves opponent "ate", keep that as your "trump card" ... see what other serves you won easily ... higher level opponents like 1800+ generally don't eat spin serves ... see if fh is their weaknees of footwork by serving down the line. .. see if they are close to the table and serve fast to their bh to jam them ... first game, probe all areas to find weakness ... with this philosophy, I show all my serves to my opponent and see which will win as aces or facilitate my 3rd ball attack ... figure out of your rbh is better than your fh loop, serve accordingly to facilitate that weapon ... know where serve returns generally will be placed with each serve

5) down 2 games or in close games, must play your higher percentage attacks

6) if you are up 2 games to 0, you want to serve different serves, go ahead, but my philosophy is you don't do it when you are down, unless you see they psyched him out and you get easy winners, but then again, I would have tested opponent with first game with those serves

When you are in the lead, you can do almost anything g you want ... when you are behind, you have to get to pariry/equality. .. if you are in the lead, figure out your winners, use it more often than not to win

Truly hope this helps!



NL,

I'm not at the level that I can spot those points you made ... thank you NextLevel! Gives me something to aim in looking at how to look/read what's going on.

Thank you!

 

[NextLevel]

NL,

I'm not at the level that I can spot those points you made ... thank you NextLevel! Gives me something to aim in looking at how to look/read what's going on.

Thank you!

OSP, every advice I give is in the context of the specific player. JeffM has some issues with health, but I doubt they are as and hope they are not as severe as mine. He is also young and seems to have a fairly fast swing. What he needs to develop is the timing to put more of that swing speed into spin, and also put in the work to improve his stroke so that it is more secure and reliable. One element of this is what DerEchte pointed out about foot positioning, but that is just an issue and doesn't address the bigger point - JeffM only knows what to do to the ball when it is a ball that is easy. He is young and needs to be able to swing at the ball when the ball is not easy.

Now if I looked at your game, I could for your age and your health see something entirely different. I might tell you to push more or play better flat blocks and not encourage you to loop per se if you don't have the tools for it. But that is all hypothetical without knowing you, how you want to play etc.

The fundamental basis of modern table tennis is mostly two things - reading the incoming ball and playing a quality shot on the incoming ball. I am looking at JeffM's match and saying that forget strategy, the quality of the balls is low enough that if JeffM improved the quality of his loop and learned to apply it to no spin, topspin and backspin, he would leave this level behind in 3-6 months or at most 12 mths with good work on his loop. To seriously discuss strategy when looking at that kind of ball quality would be a disservice to JEffM as he is young and capable of far better.

For me, strategy begins to matter more around the USATT 1600 level. Most players there have developed tools for some kind of quality ball, so strategy is semi-meaningful. If I discussed strategy with JEffM here after watching this match, I am saying that I do not believe the tools to improve his game are available, so I can just discuss strategy. But I am sure that JEffM is capable of FAR better technique so I will not be discussing strategy when a few technical changes should have him beating his opponent very badly. THe details of those technical changes are only relevant if JeffM accepts the responsibilty to spin the ball. He is playing way too flat.

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

Masterful insight NL! Thank you!

I'm generally shy, don't post pix or vids of myself in other contexts of my life. With TT, it may be ok for me to post.

I've have not video myself all that much and am not as disciplined as you are. I did video myself vs Carl from back in June this year, playing with my old racket but with an Adidas rubber that was too fast for me.

Carl will let you know I beat him 3 straight after dropping the first 2 games, but it was mostly luck as I didn't change my tactics all too much.

He posted our warmup of me just blocking his loops from the last Goon Squad get-together. So yeah, soon, I may post vids of me... I don't play in tournaments anymore, so I have nothing to lose by posting.

Just will check with my opponents going forward if they are cool of me video'ing our matches.

Thank you again!

 

[JeffM]

Thanks NL and OSP.
Good serving advises! While I agree with NL's point of view that he rather give me feedback on my technical side rather than strategy, I appreciate OSP's advise as it is a reminder of what I should do. It is not something new, but it is something I cannot think of when playing some matches. And when playing someone of similar level, that might be just what I need to have an edge.
With all my respect, while I am definitely not saying I am a good player, I do not think the video that I posted give a just picture of what my playing ability, as I have played better matches (and recorded), but I would rather not post them in public leading up to the comp. I agree with NL that after missing some shots, my confidence dropped and I have moved to playing more softer and flatter shots. I think my problem is the consistency, and the confidence in myself to continue to do so, instead of going for softer and flatter shots. Why do I say that, it is because I know I can loop topspin, in fact, when I play my good games, I win points from loop because the ball is usually spinnier than what the opponent can control. So I believe consistency is my main issue, and mentality as well (I need to continue doing it even if I fail one or two attempts).

With regards to my knee, I might just explain a bit clearer. I had an operation 2 years ago, and since then it is fine apart from some weaker thigh muscles and my fear that I may damage the knee again and have operation :S But from time to time, if I play too often or too intense, it can get a bit inflamed. Recently I have been playing alot more than usual, perhaps doubling or tripling the usual amount, so I can say my knee isn't at its top condition. I am cutting down my playing hours alot this week as I am very busy with uni assignments, and also a a chance to focus more on my physical conditioning and giving some rest to my knee.

On a different note, I will make a video after my comp comprising of the highlight points starting from preparation for trial of my team, to preparation for the comp, to the end of the comp. Hopefully I will do my bit in promoting the sport in the social media to the public

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

JM, good luck with your knee and upcoming comp as well as university!

 

[Der_Echte]

Der,

My google-fu is not even white belt level

Sorry, I can't find it on nexy site, do you have a link?

TIA!

Here is where we reviewed it at MyTT when it came out years ago. I have changed my opinion recently as one of my Russian friends bought one and I used my demo some more. Close to table you are a BOSS with Amazon, that is hte takeaway. back then, I wasn't such a close to table player when I reviewed it.

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50153&PN=1&title=nexy-amazon-reviews

 

[Der_Echte]

This is Nexy President Moon's description on his diary thread from MyTT.

Below is the Amazon's official explanation in nexy.com
It will be posted soon in the site.
I will update this page with pictures later.




Amazon

This is the forest we need to protect.
And this is the utmost natualization of a carbon blade.

Concerning Amazon, Nexy tried two folded challenges.
One is to maximize the effect of Ayous used beneath the surface wood,
by which you can feel how deep the Ayous layer can embrace the ball in itself.
Not like Calix, it's not that thin, rather thicker we can say,
hence it's basic character is focusing on accepting the ball deep.
But thick and burnt Ayous does not stay there only embracing.
It responds to the ball with big power.
That's the effect of Ayous used for the second layer.
It's twice thicker than Lissom and Calix, so you can imagine how big the power it may have.
But still very light, due to the burning process done only for this layer.

The second challenge will be about how much natural wooden feeling a carbon blade can have.
Amazon must have a natural feeling over the whole,
if Nexy wants people to think of the value of forest, in other word, nature.
Yes, we can make it with designing beautiful forest on it with ease,
but not easy to complete it with it's character and function.
So, lots of weeks were dedicated for this study,
how to maximize natural wooden feeling.
Now the final one has very prompt wooden feeling over the whole body,
and you will feel it whenever you embrace the ball with it.

This can be categorized from ALL + to OFF -.
But this kind of traditional categorization is against Nexy's idea about blade design.
Specially this Amazon is not easy to tell.
It has very soft and sophisticated short blocking,
and also powerful surprising top spin in the same time.

This is not a perfect blade.
Rather this can appeal for only 1% players, who dare to experience something eccentric.
It's character is not trustworthy.
This is we can see from those girls who are called coquets.
It never answers with steadfast trust.

So, we can safely say that this is not the blade Nexy wanted to make.
But it was born, after so many weeks of study and experiments,
and it has it's sure own value.

Yes, this is it.
Now you are to grab it and feel it,
and judge how peculiar it is.
Meet "AMAZON" in nexy.com.

 

[Shuki]

I do doubt it is possible to play high level table tennis without whip mechanics.
There are many reasons why someone can struggle to move.

What do you consider high level? I don't think whip mechanics are necessary. I believe they can sure as hell make the game easier and your shots more powerful, but not a necessity.

 

[Der_Echte]

Shuki. If you are talking about the first class of player I discuss, I am with you. For those who rely on taking away spin from the ball and fooling people on impact (Think of Player M from NL's last tourney and the 2300ish level Rich Dewitt) whip mechanics are inconsequential and not really needed.

For attacking players who want to make heavy spin and good pace when needed, then effectively executing good bio-mechanics of whip motion is absolutely essential. Whip mechanics are even crucial in making spin on serves. If I could not do a good short whip on serve, none of my serves would be heavy, so I couldn't fool anyone when I go suddenly change to light spin. That is half my game and level right there.

If I did not have a good whip to make heavy spin, any advantage I have vs an equal player goes out the window.

If I could not make a good whip to power loop a dead ball or an underspin, I would be useless vs defenders and hardbatters... and I got a very strong record vs them.

Being able to whip and make topspin at will is an absolute must to make a quality ball for an attacker, it is also needed to play safely too.

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

Here is where we reviewed it at MyTT when it came out years ago. I have changed my opinion recently as one of my Russian friends bought one and I used my demo some more. Close to table you are a BOSS with Amazon, that is hte takeaway. back then, I wasn't such a close to table player when I reviewed it.

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50153&PN=1&title=nexy-amazon-reviews

Call me intrigued! Thank you for the links!

I haven't had much exposure to modern blades, or old blades for that matter.

Personally owned off-the-shelf Double Happiness blades as well as a Double Happiness 032 5 ply and my main blade for years, a Double Happiness 7 ply 08. I had briefly a IIRC, Yasaka one ply, lost my grip on a loop, flew from one side of the club to the other side and it broke

My old Double Happiness blades dud not vibrate nor make a sound.

Using an Avalox P700 now, and taking some tme to get adjusted to the vibration as well as sound it makes on hits.

I can't afford the Amazon now, will have to save up for it. I have another hobby which I'm used to spending the kind of money of the Amazon's price point. I'm not used to spending this kind of money on table tennis gear given I'm not even 2000 or even 1800. But call me curious, I'll save for it, it sounds like the Amazon may fit my dinosaur style!

Thank you for the heads up!

 

[JeffM]

A bit of a random question, is Tiago Apolonia ZLC available in penhold?

I've always wanted to try a butterfly blade and that model seems quite attractive!

 

[Der_Echte]

Lost photo from TTD meetup @NYISC V1.0



and a random Suarez biting pic from the last World Cup...

 

[NextLevel]

What do you consider high level? I don't think whip mechanics are necessary. I believe they can sure as hell make the game easier and your shots more powerful, but not a necessity.

Well, if I am accelerating my racket at a certain speed to generate spin and power, you think you can just wave your racket at my ball and consistently stop it without any attempt to accelerate your racket even over a short distance?

If so, good luck with that. It's a good theory, but the real world doesn't work that way.

 

[Shuki]

Well, if I am accelerating my racket at a certain speed to generate spin and power, you think you can just wave your racket at my ball and consistently stop it without any attempt to accelerate your racket even over a short distance?

If so, good luck with that. It's a good theory, but the real world doesn't work that way.

that's why I asked the still unanswered question. what do you consider high level. dealing with your spin isn't the only way to play the game. preventing you from being able to do it is also an option. I didn't say I could stop all your spin consistently without putting my raquet through the ball. I'm simply saying not everybody needs whip mechanics to excel at this game.

 

[NextLevel]

Shuki. If you are talking about the first class of player I discuss, I am with you. For those who rely on taking away spin from the ball and fooling people on impact (Think of Player M from NL's last tourney and the 2300ish level Rich Dewitt) whip mechanics are inconsequential and not really needed.

Both players use whip mechanics. The problem is not their whip mechanics, but that they use these whip mechanics to play risky and relatively flat games. You see short whip mechanics all over DeWitt's game (he would be toast without it) and M's real problem is that he plays a forehand punch not a forehand loop. His racket acceleration is tremendous.

Let's get it clear that whip mechanics are not some magical phenomenon. Athletes in many sports e.g. baseball pitchers use them all the time. One could argue that it is how the body works efficiently. The real question is what are the most efficient motions/patterns and how to produce them to hit a table tennis ball consistently. Rich applies his motion to hit a ball with characteristics that messes up many players. He is not using a full body motion. But he has to accelerate that racket quickly enough over a short distance to get the speed and control he gets. If you want, I can review a match of his and we can see the mechanics in place.

 

[NextLevel]

that's why I asked the still unanswered question. what do you consider high level. dealing with your spin isn't the only way to play the game. preventing you from being able to do it is also an option. I didn't say I could stop all your spin consistently without putting my raquet through the ball. I'm simply saying not everybody needs whip mechanics to excel at this game.

This is just devil's advocate speak and I am not sure you understand whip mechanics so you might just be having a meaningless disagreement with me. When you are looking at whip mechanics, you are looking not at some black or white thing, but at the efficiency of the motion used to generate racket head speed over a short distance. IT's not an all or nothing proposition.

Because non-inverted surfaces require less acceleration to control the ball, I've seen very poor whip mechanics in some players at the 1800 level using such surfaces who almost never hit the ball hard or play topspins - their serves are pretty poor. But I haven't seen a lack of whip mechanics in any player over 1600 with inverted and the mechanics become more and more efficient as one gets better all the way up to 2800 as the speed required to rally and produce power will show up mechanics that are way too inefficient. DerEchte discussed serving and that is a place where efficient whip mechanics give you a huge edge. I can literally get players under 1800 to repeatedly push my backspin serve into the net and most players under 2000 can't push it short because the amount of spin is tremendous relative to the serve motion. But I only got the full effect of this in the last month or so as my mechanics and technique improved and improved.

 

[Shuki]

This is just devil's advocate speak and I am not sure you understand whip mechanics so you might just be having a meaning disagreement with me. When you are looking at whip mechanics, you are looking not at some black or white thing, but at the efficiency of the motion used to generate racket head speed over a short distance. IT's not an all or nothing proposition.

Because non-inverted surfaces require less acceleration to control the ball, I've seen very poor whip mechanics in some players at the 1800 level using such surfaces who almost never hit the ball hard or play topspins - their serves are pretty poor. But I haven't seen a lack of whip mechanics in any player over 1600 with inverted and the mechanics become more and more efficient as one gets better all the way up to 2800 as the speed required to rally and produce power will show up mechanics that are way too inefficient.

There are always exceptions if we look for them.

Ilya, Near 2000 level player from my club. plays with anti-spin on one side. Suffers from parkinsons. Picks his angle, doesn't move forward since the nerves actually push against what he says to do. Just pokes with the antispin until theirs a ball to kill. And then comes where he literally does a jump shot in order to get his paddle to move forward quick enough to do something to the ball. The jump shot is the only part of his game I would consider having whip mechanics. And he says he only does that on days he's feeling good.

Me telling Ilya he needs to have good whip mechanics in order to be sufficient in this game would be pretty messed up to do. I'm guessing it's like what your coaches were telling you before you met brett and worked around your medical issues. The way you worked around your issues is by using fantastic whip mechanics in your forearm, wrist, hips, etc. Maybe someone with different issues has to work around something else. I'm simply saying that the whip mechanics aren't the only thing needed to be worked on. To me, footwork is more important.

I'm sure we're going to keep disagreeing on this so I'll just drop it here. have your retort, or don't. I don't mean to frustrate you.

 

[NextLevel]

Because non-inverted surfaces require less acceleration to control the ball, I've seen very poor whip mechanics in some players at the 1800 level using such surfaces who almost never hit the ball hard or play topspins - their serves are pretty poor. But I haven't seen a lack of whip mechanics in any player over 1600 with inverted and the mechanics become more and more efficient as one gets better all the way up to 2800 as the speed required to rally and produce power will show up mechanics that are way too inefficient. DerEchte discussed serving and that is a place where efficient whip mechanics give you a huge edge. I can literally get players under 1800 to repeatedly push my backspin serve into the net and most players under 2000 can't push it short because the amount of spin is tremendous relative to the serve motion. But I only got the full effect of this in the last month or so as my mechanics and technique improved and improved.

There are always exceptions if we look for them.

Ilya, Near 2000 level player from my club. plays with anti-spin on one side. Suffers from parkinsons. Picks his angle, doesn't move forward since the nerves actually push against what he says to do. Just pokes with the antispin until theirs a ball to kill. And then comes where he literally does a jump shot in order to get his paddle to move forward quick enough to do something to the ball. The jump shot is the only part of his game I would consider having whip mechanics. And he says he only does that on days he's feeling good.

Me telling Ilya he needs to have good whip mechanics in order to be sufficient in this game would be pretty messed up to do. I'm guessing it's like what your coaches were telling you before you met brett and worked around your medical issues. The way you worked around your issues is by using fantastic whip mechanics in your forearm, wrist, hips, etc. Maybe someone with different issues has to work around something else. I'm simply saying that the whip mechanics aren't the only thing needed to be worked on. To me, footwork is more important.

I'm sure we're going to keep disagreeing on this so I'll just drop it here. have your retort, or don't. I don't mean to frustrate you.

Sure we can agree to agree while you keep on pretending to be arguing in good faith. And no, you are not frustrating me. It's always fun to have a chance to speak about something I enjoy speaking about. Even if the person I am speaking to pretends to be listening while they aren't.

The other thing that people don't realize is that whip mechanics when blocking can be almost imperceptible. IT's on the larger strokes you can see more clearly what someone is or is not doing.

Finally, no one ever said whip mechanics are the only thing that need to be worked on in TT. I mean, wherever that came from, it is your view. The importance of whip mechanics comes with the question of what the most efficient way to accelerate a racket over a short distance is. Obviously, there are other important things in TT as well.

 

[NextLevel]

Thanks NL and OSP.
Good serving advises! While I agree with NL's point of view that he rather give me feedback on my technical side rather than strategy, I appreciate OSP's advise as it is a reminder of what I should do. It is not something new, but it is something I cannot think of when playing some matches. And when playing someone of similar level, that might be just what I need to have an edge.
With all my respect, while I am definitely not saying I am a good player, I do not think the video that I posted give a just picture of what my playing ability, as I have played better matches (and recorded), but I would rather not post them in public leading up to the comp. I agree with NL that after missing some shots, my confidence dropped and I have moved to playing more softer and flatter shots. I think my problem is the consistency, and the confidence in myself to continue to do so, instead of going for softer and flatter shots. Why do I say that, it is because I know I can loop topspin, in fact, when I play my good games, I win points from loop because the ball is usually spinnier than what the opponent can control. So I believe consistency is my main issue, and mentality as well (I need to continue doing it even if I fail one or two attempts).

With regards to my knee, I might just explain a bit clearer. I had an operation 2 years ago, and since then it is fine apart from some weaker thigh muscles and my fear that I may damage the knee again and have operation :S But from time to time, if I play too often or too intense, it can get a bit inflamed. Recently I have been playing alot more than usual, perhaps doubling or tripling the usual amount, so I can say my knee isn't at its top condition. I am cutting down my playing hours alot this week as I am very busy with uni assignments, and also a a chance to focus more on my physical conditioning and giving some rest to my knee.

On a different note, I will make a video after my comp comprising of the highlight points starting from preparation for trial of my team, to preparation for the comp, to the end of the comp. Hopefully I will do my bit in promoting the sport in the social media to the public

To get better faster, you need to learn to read and loop a variety of spins, sometimes with control and more spin, sometimes with power and more speed. The key reason why getting a good control loop helps is that being able to put spin on the ball against an opponent who is not ready to go into topspin can often help you play the rally on your terms. In fact, I almost exclusively play circular strokes when I get low balls unless my brain is switched off. But this is just my way - everyone has their own path based on their own abilities and timing.

The way I play (and I think most good players play TT) is that we read the spin on the ball within a certain range. Based on whether the ball is high and our certain we are of our read, we then decide what stroke to play. Players who practice only against topspin get used to borrowing the spin on the ball and hit into the ball often without trying to add their own spin. Players who play only against backspin often get used to only lifting the ball. Players who practice against float may not get used to playing forward strokes when necessary. Players also need to sometimes practice adapting to sidespin so that they do not loop serves wide or long repeatedly.

So what you need is a stroke that when someone gives you a loose ball below net height, you can play an attacking topspin stroke. It doesn't need to be a hard stroke. It just needs to be a stroke that lets you continue to play your game. If you have that kind of stroke, you can maintain the attacking mindset. You currently don't practice looping against a variety of spins with control so you probably lose confidence when you don't get the spin you want because you can't use your error to see how you should have approached the ball. Practicing against different kind of spins is something that one should fix earlier rather than later in one's TT experience as the later you wait to fix it, the more you expose yourself to losing to players who do not like to play topspin to topspin.

 

[Archosaurus]

I think Shuki is associating whip mechanics too much with looping. You can have whip mechanics in looping, driving, countering, pushing, blocking, serving, you name it. I've never seen nor heard of anyone who is over the low 1000's who doesn't have some kind of whip mechanics in their game.


I think I have an idea what kind of stroke NL is talking about. I'd have to agree that you must, absolutely must have some semblance of decent whip mechanics to play a looping game.

The way I've experienced it is that I don't need to push or lift some balls anymore that I used to not be able to do anything else against. I can keep playing topspins, slow or fast, from under the net's height and even the table's height if the ball's right. Coincidentally, this started happening shortly after I could incorporate a whipping motion into my game strokes.


I'm curious though. I wanna see a 2000+ player with bad whip mechanics, or complete lack of.