Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[Gozo]

Judging by what Carl said, you probably don't practice game points and don't have a plan for the point either. Practice some common game points where you should loop the ball.

A common point that almost everyone sees is, you serve, they push to the middle, you forehand loop. Do this 1000 times, or until it becomes your default response that you don't have to think about. Then you will just do the loop out of habit.

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I just saw the vid that Carl posted now. You've likely done serve push push for so long it's become a habit and you don't trust yourself to serve and then loop right away.

To build trust, you need to do it until it becomes mostly successful (competence builds confidence). Then you need to think about it before you serve so you remember to use this training. If you repeat this a lot, you'll eventually even be able to do this unplanned.

Yes! I'm gonna do this in my next practice, even if I have to lose many games, so be it. I need to re-strategize or reinvent my game style for a small tourney in mid-April or if unable to, to prep myself for a major tourney at the end of July this year.

 

[NextLevel]

imo it's bc you are thinking to hit the ball hard, with power. you want to loop but like a loop kill. this thought in your brain makes your muscles tense up and you lose the timing and fine motor control need to actually make a nice, safe, spinny loop.

try only looking at the ball and spinning it, without crushing it, might help

@Gozo So this would have been my answer in the absence of video, but you say you actually loop in practice, so you are unlikely to be smashing in practice. What is your success rate in practice? How many balls do you loop when your coach is pushing to you? Do you have video of your practice loops?

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Yes! I'm gonna do this in my next practice, even if I have to lose many games, so be it. I need to re-strategize or reinvent my game style for a small tourney in mid-April or if unable to, to prep myself for a major tourney at the end of July this year.

You don't have to play games to practice 3rd ball attack. It is better if it is not in game.

You find someone who is willing to train instead of playing games.

Then you do this:

a) You serve backspin short
b) training partner pushes medium long to the middle of the table
c) YOU LOOP WITH FH

There are lots of variations on this. And probably, after you do 20 where one person loops, then you switch and do 20 with the other person doing the serve and loop.

But it is true. Do you have footage of you looping vs BACKSPIN during training with your coach?

Because looping vs topspin does not really equate to looping vs backspin.

 

[Gozo]

@Gozo So this would have been my answer in the absence of video, but you say you actually loop in practice, so you are unlikely to be smashing in practice. What is your success rate in practice? How many balls do you loop when your coach is pushing to you? Do you have video of your practice loops?

I don't have a recent video on this. However in my last practice with my coach last weekend, my success rate is to my satisfaction ( 70 - 80% ) - that is if I mentally recalled but most probably may not be accurate due to self-bias or this allegedly high percentage is probably due to what USDC rightly put it, I am being fed with prior knowledge that the ball will come to my FH side only and no tricky placement.

NB: Due to scheduling conflict, I will only meet my coach again in April.

 

[Gozo]

You don't have to play games to practice 3rd ball attack. It is better if it is not in game.

You find someone who is willing to train instead of playing games.

Then you do this:

a) You serve backspin short
b) training partner pushes medium long to the middle of the table
c) YOU LOOP WITH FH

There are lots of variations on this. And probably, after you do 20 where one person loops, then you switch and do 20 with the other person doing the serve and loop.

But it is true. Do you have footage of you looping vs BACKSPIN during training with your coach?

Because looping vs topspin does not really equate to looping vs backspin.

Yup! Gonna do this.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I don't have a recent video on this. However in my last practice with my coach last weekend, my success rate is to my satisfaction ( 70 - 80% ) - that is if I mentally recalled but most probably may not be accurate due to self-bias or this allegedly high percentage is probably due to what USDC rightly put it, I am being fed with prior knowledge that the ball will come to my FH side only and no tricky placement.

NB: Due to scheduling conflict, I will only meet my coach again in April.

Do you have footage from within the past 4 months where the coach is feeding you backspin and you are looping with FH?

If it is within the past several months, it will still show a lot.

 

[JeffM]

Sounds like you got lucky. Muscle strains are generally way more benign than something involving tendons and ligaments.

Bench press is not inherently injury inducing *as long as you have proper form.* This means keeping your elbows tucked, staying tight, and keeping your scapula retracted and in firm contact with the bench. If you are benching with arms flared or your scapula is coming forward off the bench, you will run into all sorts of problems.

Thanks. It is funny, because that day I was with my friend, and he was telling me that my right elbow seems to be more flared than my left. He was telling me to imagine that I am 'bending' the bar, and that will keep my elbow close to myself. And then the same session, I had that injury. I wonder if it was because I tried to do it properly but at a weight that my body was not ready for.

The injury is getting better. Pain is better but it isn't gone yet. I will go to gym tonight but I probably won't do anything upper body related.

 

[turbozed]

Thanks. It is funny, because that day I was with my friend, and he was telling me that my right elbow seems to be more flared than my left. He was telling me to imagine that I am 'bending' the bar, and that will keep my elbow close to myself. And then the same session, I had that injury. I wonder if it was because I tried to do it properly but at a weight that my body was not ready for.

The injury is getting better. Pain is better but it isn't gone yet. I will go to gym tonight but I probably won't do anything upper body related.

Yeah, if you're going to be changing form, you want to be doing it at a lower weight than you're used to, not a higher weight. Also, form cues are helpful, but it doesn't always instantaneously translate to the correct muscle enagement. 'Bending the bar' is supposed to cue scapular retraction and keeping it retracted. But you can also try to 'bend the bar' incorrectly with no scapular retraction, which would be more of a hinderance than a help.

It's probably best to just lay off training your upper body for a while. You won't lose any strength in the span of one or two weeks. Most people jump in too quickly and end up reaggravating the initial injury. The only caveat there is that unilateral exercises using the non-injured side has been shown to reduce muscle/strength loss of the injured side. This is a great idea to do when it's ligament or tendon issues requiring many weeks of rest for the injured side. But probably unnecessary for a muscle strain that you only need to rest for much shorter periods.

Good luck on your recovery.

 

[Der_Echte]

At Stellan's TT training camp today, Angie saw my BH lop vs underspin did not have a large follow through and mentioned I should follow through more, that I might be tightening up before impact, and thus slowing the whip and taking away pace or spin from the shot. (My slow, heavy topspin vs underspin is about as loaded heavy spin as it gets) (I am relaxed and loose all the way to impact)

Stellan came over and discussed this too, advocating a larger follow through. (and the same concerns of a possible slow down of the whip from tightening too early) I explained that I stay loose to the impact, then I firm up on some balls... right at impact... and this firming will stop my hitting lower arm from following through excessively... which gives me a quick reset.

Stellan (besides having huge credibility and experience as perhaps the best TT coach in the world) mentioned that the two best BHs in the world at their time (Persson one of them) did not do their BHs that way, but that there are always possible ways that work. Well, that should carry a lot of weight. (Top coach and 2 each GOAT class BHs)

I really disliked semi-publicly disagreeing with Stellan and Angie. (LDM7 saw the conversation)... they have been top coaches for many decades for obvious good reasons... still we were all very polite and to business.

There is a BH topspin vs underspin where I do not firm at impact and my follow through is more in the range of where they like seeing it. I wish Angie saw this one first and the conversation didn't happen.

 

[Gozo]

Do you have footage from within the past 4 months where the coach is feeding you backspin and you are looping with FH?

If it is within the past several months, it will still show a lot.

I've checked through my YT archive and my last coaching recording was more than six months ago. My recent recordings are mainly match play.

 

[dingyibvs]

@Gozo

Just a note from my practice experiences, 1000 practice shots won't nearly be enough. I've done well over 10,000 BH loops vs backspin and it's just beginning to become useful in games!

Also, 70% success rate in practice is not nearly enough. Success rate drops significantly in games. 70-80% will easily become 40-50% in real games. That means your loop attempts will lose you more points than they win. You need 90+% success rate in practice doing something simple as the drills others have mentioned (i.e. serve, push, loop), assuming you're focusing well like it's a game and your shot is not meant to outright win the point.

 

[dingyibvs]

I haven't gotten to play much this past week. After the last tournament on Thursday I went on a trip to SLO and Solvang with my wife Fri-Mon, then worked late on Tues and hanged out with a friend today, so no playing at the club until the next tournament tmr.

Playing vs real people is what I need right now, but I suppose TT can't be EVERYTHING in life I've been doing some practices with the robot. I bought a fitness band so I've been using it to track my HR and guide my practices.

After warm-ups which usually includes 100-200 service practices, I'd do some random BH/FH practices at 80 balls/min for 40 balls. Usually my HR would go up to about 160, so I take a bit of a break then start again when my HR drops to 120. This way I keep my HR mostly in zone 2, optimal for fat burning, helps me burn off all the sweets I ate at Solvang 😏

I'd do 5 sets of that, then take a longer break. Then do 5 sets of BH loop vs backspin, maybe 200 shots or so. Then I do 5 more sets of random BH/FH, but with the spin turned up a notch. Take another break. Then do a few more BH loops vs backspin. Then finish off with either BH loops vs return board or FH counterloops.

This ends up being a pretty good workout. I think when I have time I'll use this as my workout of the day. When I do take breaks it tends to be fairly long. I've got a TV set up in the garage now so I just watch TV in between. This way, even though the intensity of the workout isn't super high it still ends up taking like 3 hours lol. It's better than sitting on the couch watching TV, I suppose!

 

[NDH]

We had our penultimate match in one of the leagues I play in last night.

21 matches in the season (8 teams in the division and you play each other 3 times).

We have just clinched the Premier Division title with 1 match to go!

CHOOOOOOOOO!!

It’s probably the toughest league I play in, and there are 8 divisions in total (we play in the top division).

I really like the league format, and I’m surprised other countries don’t adopt it more (even if teams are playing from the same venue).

It seems common(ish) in Europe, but significantly less common in Asia and the Americas (unless I’m misinformed?)

I’ve had a bit of an up and down year - I started really strong, had a terrible mid season, and I’ve finished pretty strong.

I should end up on around 78% which I’m happy enough about (definitely some silly losses over the year!)

 

[Wrighty67]

We had our penultimate match in one of the leagues I play in last night.

21 matches in the season (8 teams in the division and you play each other 3 times).

We have just clinched the Premier Division title with 1 match to go!

CHOOOOOOOOO!!

It’s probably the toughest league I play in, and there are 8 divisions in total (we play in the top division).

I really like the league format, and I’m surprised other countries don’t adopt it more (even if teams are playing from the same venue).

It seems common(ish) in Europe, but significantly less common in Asia and the Americas (unless I’m misinformed?)

I’ve had a bit of an up and down year - I started really strong, had a terrible mid season, and I’ve finished pretty strong.

I should end up on around 78% which I’m happy enough about (definitely some silly losses over the year!)

Great result NDH, that's a fantastic performance and a good win rate!

My team has finished our 15 matches and 6 teams and we are currently top but likely to be knocked off that spot as other top team is only on 11 matches...

I played 39 matches but only managed 39% so some work to do for me in the off season..

Well done!

 

[NDH]

Great result NDH, that's a fantastic performance and a good win rate!

My team has finished our 15 matches and 6 teams and we are currently top but likely to be knocked off that spot as other top team is only on 11 matches...

I played 39 matches but only managed 39% so some work to do for me in the off season..

Well done!

In some ways, I'd rather be at 39% as you can see the improvement year on year.

For me, the only real positive result would be 90%+

Anything else just feels like a solid season (with the potential for it to be a bad season!)

I'm at a level where I won't improve unless I really step it up and play the weekend GP's and British League etc.....

But weekends are family time, so that isn't going to happen!

 

[Wrighty67]

In some ways, I'd rather be at 39% as you can see the improvement year on year.

For me, the only real positive result would be 90%+

Anything else just feels like a solid season (with the potential for it to be a bad season!)

I'm at a level where I won't improve unless I really step it up and play the weekend GP's and British League etc.....

But weekends are family time, so that isn't going to happen!

Yes - I have set a goal of 75%+ for next season. I am also time constrained for playing at weekends (apart from some practice in my shed) so bigger tournaments are fairly rare for me. I am playing in the upcoming vets tournament in Bristol but really only to get more pressure match practice as I am unlikely to get positive results at this time.

I need to address some technical issues and build some reliability on both wings vs underspin during this off-season.

 

[hclnnkhg]

Yes - I have set a goal of 75%+ for next season. I am also time constrained for playing at weekends (apart from some practice in my shed) so bigger tournaments are fairly rare for me. I am playing in the upcoming vets tournament in Bristol but really only to get more pressure match practice as I am unlikely to get positive results at this time.

I need to address some technical issues and build some reliability on both wings vs underspin during this off-season.

What's the match format of your league? 3 vs 3 with 9 singles + 1 doubles?

 

[Wrighty67]

What's the match format of your league? 3 vs 3 with 9 singles + 1 doubles?

Yep, that's it

 

[NDH]

What's the match format of your league? 3 vs 3 with 9 singles + 1 doubles?

That's the one!

Apart from a few 2 man leagues (which are far more popular in Summer, and generally not considered to be as important), all of the leagues I know are 3 man teams with 9 singles and a doubles.

Some leagues have different scoring systems, but most simply count the number of matches won on the night (so it could be 5-5 or 10-0 and anything in between).

I do play in one league that counts the number of *games* won.....

So if Team A beat Team B 10-0 in matches, but each match was 3-2..... The score would actually be 30-20.

Whilst it may seem more "fair".... I hate it.

I think the mental strength to win a close match is worth the victory, and I don't think there should be rewards for losing.

You could lose 2 of your 3 matches but still come out with a positive average.

2-3 LOSS
2-3 LOSS
3-0 WIN

Gives you a score of 7 games won and 6 games lost..... an average of 53.85%

Under normal conditions, it would be 33.33%......

 

[hclnnkhg]

Yep, that's it

Cool, so you're aiming to go from winning ~1 out of 3 to ~2 out of 3 per match. Best of luck!
I took a break from league this season but I will re-join this coming season. I have been training relatively seriously and hopefully can surprise some of my opponents