Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[NextLevel]

Any advice on drills to practice stepping into the FH corner region? I have the reflex step over to the BH region but i'm always too slow on the FH side

Hahahaha... the most difficult piece of footwork for the two winged looper in all of table tennis...

The most important thing is to turn your shoulders first. IF you do that, the rest will make sense.

The other part is that you need to hit the ball before your left foot touches the ground.

 

[NextLevel]

1400 = TRUTH!

I didn't play much tournaments, only a few of the monthlies in Westfield NJ and a few in NYC. Actually, old man memory is bad... i was 1300+, never made 1400

Played in the NYC Friday night league ran by Andy Diaz back in the 80's.

I have no idea what my level is. Stroking/practicing is one thing, but games are different.

Yeah. Your 1400 rating is as valid as 1900 rating in chess from 2003 - as in who the heck knows?

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

Any advice on drills to practice stepping into the FH corner region? I have the reflex step over to the BH region but i'm always too slow on the FH side

A footwork drill i do is basic shuffling. Feet ~shoulder width apart. Step with my right foot about a step to the FH/right side, shuffle my left foot to where my right foot was ... feet should be roughly shoulder width apart (unless you like a slightly wider stance)

If i need to cover more distance and/or faster, i shuffle my left foot to where my foot has stepped/planted and then move my right again.

I need to do much more footwork drills.

EDIT: hope this helps!

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

Yeah. Your 1400 rating is as valid as 1900 rating in chess from 2003 - as in who the heck knows?

LOLOL -- i used to play a lot of chess too... about 1400 also.

 

[Suga D]

You can't fool me with your "1400" rating anymore... lol...

Gotcha, osph

[Emoji12]

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

woah, the service part of your shadow strokes. if you actually go through the ball like that, your serves must be crazy spinny!

His serves are definitely good. Those frustrating, deceptive, spinny penhold serves. Don't sleep on OldSchool's serves.


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[UpSideDownCarl]

You can't fool me with your "1400" rating anymore... lol...

Gazactly.


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[Shuki]

1400 rating. HA, I missed that one somewhere. When I was watching the shadow strokes I was saw what I was expecting to see from most players 1600+ doing shadow strokes. Then I got to the part where I saw him whip through the air doing the shadow serve part.
First thought, was his windup was too big.

second thought was "holy crap, he's so consistent at getting that motion the windup doesn't matter, it's probably helping him at this point, he's clearly practiced this a lot".

Third though: "I don't think I could return his serves even 50% of the time, let alone get a QUALITY return."

Fourth thought: the serves alone could get him over 1800 easy. Now I want to see him in action and see how well he can deal with his stuff coming back!

OSP, I thank you for the video upload, gained quite a bit more respect. Before this I believed you probably weren't too good, now I believe your awfully humble. And that's a fantastic trait to have.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

On Sunday I got to play with my main man Marky Mark Croitoroo for 2 hours plus. We worked on a lot of stuff. He has a crazy shoulder injury so he can't play righty anymore. Therefore, he was playing lefty. Lefty he is about 1700-1800 with the brain of a 2400 level player.

I worked on opening vs backspin on my BH and he showed me a few things that made it click better. My timing was too early: good vs topspin not vs backspin. And he changed my backswing 3" and it made a HUGE difference.

Then he served to me, crazy lefty serves and showed me what to do to drop them short or with pace. His lefty serves are still 2100 minimum when they are on the table. So it was great practice and stuff I really need to work on.

Then we got to the real heart of things: or at least stuff I love to work on: he showed me a few new things based on seeing my serves. He showed me how to get steroids whip on some of the hook variations and also a way to get steroids whip on the reverse pendulum. All I can say is: kakakarazy. Man that was fun. And I have actually been sworn to secrecy. Mark does that to me when he shows me his secrets. [emoji2]

So, last night I worked on what he showed me. I was definitely doing something right. Soooo much more spin.

The backspin hook was actually hitting the floor and on the first bounce, stopping dead, spinning in place and then zooming almost straight back: a little curve towards receiver's FH. As I played with it, I could adjust the hook to be more or less. And I was able to do it with 3 different grips while getting the same results. Talk about deception. [emoji2]

Supper steroids whip is fragadagadagamazing!! Hahaha. And yes, LIKE A HAMMER!!!

When he showed me what I was doing wrong with the reverse and what I should do to get that steroids whip, it makes the motion much easier, but the contact harder. Here too, I needed to wait longer. Until I figured that out, I kept missing.

But when I nailed it, I was actually getting more spin than I usually get on a pendulum unless I am using the steroids whip on that. Hahaha.

My forearm and bicep are actually sore. That has never happened before either. I am actually amazed at how much my arm must have been doing. Because while I was doing it, it felt kind of effortless except that I could feel my arm pumped like it had a quart of extra blood in it. Totally wild.

Anyway, it was fun to do ground serves and have something to work on.


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[UpSideDownCarl]

The steroids whip on the reverse pendulum: I actually can't figure out why it works so well. It seems so simple. But it definitely got me more spin than I ever though I could get on the reverse.

But the steroids whip on the hook, I get it. And it is very cool. That image of the hammer is the most I'm willing to say since Mark worked hard to extract this secret from Wang Xi. But the image actually contains most of the important info. My guess is, Brett gave NextLevel some similar secrets very recently. So I am not looking forward to the next time I have to receive his serves. [emoji2]


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[Archosaurus]

Today was average as always, but I worked on my serves.

I'm getting more consistent at getting proper contact on the ball for good spin. My reverse-pendulum is also match-confident now after quite a bit of practice, so I worked on contacting properly on reverse-pendulum top/side serves that start with a downward motion. I think you know what I'm talking about.

My aim is to increase the quality of my reverse-pendulum up to my normal pendulum, and increase the speed at which I can perform the hand movement so I can make the serve shorter and more deceptive when I link it up with some fake reverse-pendulums that are really back/side.



OSPH's serve motion is quite good indeed. If he can land short serves consistently with those kind of mechanics, he's bullshitting about the 1400 rating.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Any advice on drills to practice stepping into the FH corner region? I have the reflex step over to the BH region but i'm always too slow on the FH side

For the Vampire Lestat, to go with that New Virtuoso Plus you are sporting:

First, start with what NextLevel said. That is a key element to start.

This next piece conceptually, is hard to get. But once you get it, it makes 80% of the deep FHs you will have to move to MUCH easier.

I have only started feeling this in my body recently. Because conceptually it is hard to trust that this will put less pressure on you rather than more.

The general tendency with moving for the deep FH is to move laterally and a little back to give you more time. This was hardwired into me for a long time. It seems like it should be easier. But it means you have to cover double, sometimes even triple the distance.

If instead you move forward and in to cut off the bounce, on the rise, over the table, all you need is one small one step to get from the deep BH to the wide FH and that will also put sooooo much more pressure on your opponent.

You just have to stay calm and realize you will have the time to get there. And then you need to time the ball off the bounce. Definitely higher level material. But worth it.


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[Archosaurus]

For the Vampire Lestat, to go with that New Virtuoso Plus you are sporting:

First, start with what NextLevel said. That is a key element to start.

This next piece conceptually, is hard to get. But once you get it, it makes 80% of the deep FHs you will have to move to MUCH easier.

I have only started feeling this in my body recently. Because conceptually it is hard to trust that this will put less pressure on you rather than more.

The general tendency with moving for the deep FH is to move laterally and a little back to give you more time. This was hardwired into me for a long time. It seems like it should be easier. But it means you have to cover double, sometimes even triple the distance.

If instead you move forward and in to cut off the bounce, on the rise, over the table, all you need is one small one step to get from the deep BH to the wide FH and that will also put sooooo much more pressure on your opponent.

You just have to stay calm and realize you will have the time to get there. And then you need to time the ball off the bounce. Definitely higher level material. But worth it.


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I think Larry Hodges talked about this once on his blog, when discussing blocking.

Moving in has one added benefit too: you add more pace to the ball. I like to take most wide forehand balls with some hooking sidespin and fairly slowly (So I can develop my touch, even if it's not always ideal) and moving into the ball is the difference between getting the shot over the net or netting it pathetically.

 

[laistrogian]

For the Vampire Lestat, to go with that New Virtuoso Plus you are sporting:

First, start with what NextLevel said. That is a key element to start.

This next piece conceptually, is hard to get. But once you get it, it makes 80% of the deep FHs you will have to move to MUCH easier.

I have only started feeling this in my body recently. Because conceptually it is hard to trust that this will put less pressure on you rather than more.

The general tendency with moving for the deep FH is to move laterally and a little back to give you more time. This was hardwired into me for a long time. It seems like it should be easier. But it means you have to cover double, sometimes even triple the distance.

If instead you move forward and in to cut off the bounce, on the rise, over the table, all you need is one small one step to get from the deep BH to the wide FH and that will also put sooooo much more pressure on your opponent.

You just have to stay calm and realize you will have the time to get there. And then you need to time the ball off the bounce. Definitely higher level material. But worth it.


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For me, once it goes into a game, i often forget about taking a step back when an opponent do their 3rd ball or start looping. But even close to table, my reflex isn't there yet to catch the ball all the time. I'm one of those players with big swing, big power but lacks the consistency. I guess the big part is due to most of my practice partner are below 2000 and it just ends up me ending the rally after an opening loop for more than a year.

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

I am deeply humbled by everyone's gracious comments! THANK YOU!!

I truly don't know my level (and will not in all likelihood play in rated tournaments to find out). I am not lying when I say my rating ages ago was 1300+.

Some reasons I'm not saying higher than 1400:

1. I'm my own worst enemy. Despite pendulum serve mechanics, i will miss 3 or so a game... unacceptable... i can accept 1 missed serve a game, but not 3.

2. Also I'm my own enemy, rush the 3rd ball loop and miss.

3. Bad footwork. Old and heavyset. Even in my TT prime, I was a bit heavy for my height.

4. There is a staple tactic of my game which I'm only getting 50% of the time now and which i nailed in the past ... missed timing and touch.

Think He Zhi Men ... I started as a PH pips ... I play similar tactics even though I'm PH inverted - move opponent side-to-side ... block or punch/push-block to where opponent is not ... one main tactic I employ, serve to BH and punch/block to FH. If i can get this tactic more consistently, i will feel better about my game.

5. service return - huge weakness for me! 'nuf said.

There may be a few more points, but those are plenty already. Practice and Games are 2 totally different Animals.

However, i truly appreciate TTD's kind compliments!

 

[NextLevel]

For me, once it goes into a game, i often forget about taking a step back when an opponent do their 3rd ball or start looping. But even close to table, my reflex isn't there yet to catch the ball all the time. I'm one of those players with big swing, big power but lacks the consistency. I guess the big part is due to most of my practice partner are below 2000 and it just ends up me ending the rally after an opening loop for more than a year.

At every level, rallies end if you get in the opening loop most of the time. The exception is when you are playing good blockers/defenders and this is your real problem, not your practice partner's level. There are many 2000 level players who cannot defend - they just try to attack before you do. There are also 1500 players who block and fish well. The thing is that everyone wants to work on their loop but no one wants to work on the things that win points.

 

[ttmonster]

You are definitely not 1400 , even with your said inconsistencies you should be at least 1600 or more in current form, your forehand strokes are well grooved.

Your forehand looping technique is pretty compact and even if you focus on blocking consistently with soft fingers on the backhand with uncomfortable placements you would give a lot of 1800-2000 loopers a lot of grief , till you figure out the RPB . For the RPB my 2 cents would be to sort it out a coach who can show you the proper technique to do it without injuring your wrist or shoulder .

Now regarding the inconsistencies on your serve, frequently we try to solely focus on getting a quality, un returnable serve , I would say just take it a notch down to make it and focus on the third ball , you could even just focus on one serve in each practice game and just keep changing the degree of spin or placement till you get consistent on all the third ball possibilities and then move on to another serve variation even if it you are losing , also remember when playing an actual game where you are focusing on winning , the same serve does not work for everybody and against players who are have a better serve return its actually smarter to not serve so hard because the return might end up hurting more ..

On the serve return part , which is the most difficult piece of the puzzle , one gentleman made an interesting observation while I was playing somebody 2000 + a couple of nights back, he said that whenever your opponents serve hits the net and you casually return it back you do it with more quality and consistency , but when the serve is good you tend to be too tight and that results into much lower hit rate , think over that if that helps you .. just passing on some wisdom from I got from a 2200 + sly old fox who plays with traditional japanese penhold with worn out tenergies and ankle high mountain boots and regularly manages to outfox opponents with subtle variations of spin and speed ...

I am deeply humbled by everyone's gracious comments! THANK YOU!!

I truly don't know my level (and will not in all likelihood play in rated tournaments to find out). I am not lying when I say my rating ages ago was 1300+.

Some reasons I'm not saying higher than 1400:

1. I'm my own worst enemy. Despite pendulum serve mechanics, i will miss 3 or so a game... unacceptable... i can accept 1 missed serve a game, but not 3.

2. Also I'm my own enemy, rush the 3rd ball loop and miss.

3. Bad footwork. Old and heavyset. Even in my TT prime, I was a bit heavy for my height.

4. There is a staple tactic of my game which I'm only getting 50% of the time now and which i nailed in the past ... missed timing and touch.

Think He Zhi Men ... I started as a PH pips ... I play similar tactics even though I'm PH inverted - move opponent side-to-side ... block or punch/push-block to where opponent is not ... one main tactic I employ, serve to BH and punch/block to FH. If i can get this tactic more consistently, i will feel better about my game.

5. service return - huge weakness for me! 'nuf said.

There may be a few more points, but those are plenty already. Practice and Games are 2 totally different Animals.

However, i truly appreciate TTD's kind compliments!

 

[pgpg]

You are definitely not 1400 , even with your said inconsistencies you should be at least 1600 or more in current form, your forehand strokes are well grooved.

...

I do agree with the arguments being made - but: at the end of the day, rating 'guesstimates' of this kind are just that, guesses. I have seen quite a few examples when someone looks very good in warm up and casual play, but then misreads spin on serves, freezes up because of tournament pressure, or can not move and/or adapt during match. Suddenly you are looking at someone with high level FH/serve who is still 1400.

I also know of opposite examples - awkward strokes, weird serves, arms flailing etc, but what do you know - solid ~1850 rating...

So, perhaps OSP is indeed correct in explaining why he never got higher than we think he should be, because of all other issues he listed.

 

[Shuki]

I do agree with the arguments being made - but: at the end of the day, rating 'guesstimates' of this kind are just that, guesses. I have seen quite a few examples when someone looks very good in warm up and casual play, but then misreads spin on serves, freezes up because of tournament pressure, or can not move and/or adapt during match. Suddenly you are looking at someone with high level FH/serve who is still 1400.

I also know of opposite examples - awkward strokes, weird serves, arms flailing etc, but what do you know - solid ~1850 rating...

So, perhaps OSP is indeed correct in explaining why he never got higher than we think he should be, because of all other issues he listed.

Nah I'd rather think of him as a good player who's humble


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[UpSideDownCarl]

Now regarding the inconsistencies on your serve

Just a note on this. I played two singles matches against OldSchool and 3 doubles matches with and against, and done a some extra training drills. I have not seen him miss a serve in any of those matches or the training drills. And I definitely struggled a lot with his serves because they are definitely good.

One thing I can say for sure and from 1st hand experience for OldSchool and 42&BP: their technique is way higher than their level even if their level is higher than they let on.

Der_ swore OldSchool was 2000 and sandbagging in our doubles and OldSchool and I actually came really close to pulling out the first doubles match vs Der_ and PPH who are probably a combined 900 points higher than the OCDCarl and OSPH rating wise. And I am pathetic at doubles so don't blame me for us doing well.

But these two guys (OSPH and 42&BP) who are old men like me and learned decades ago when kids, took a 30 year break and are coming back to it as if from a past life. The result is, the technique is there. They have excellent technique. But they have things holding them back like injuries and fitness level or underperforming on the money points. And yet they still play like wily old veterans.

So don't sleep on them.

I may not have ever lost a match to 42&BP but I still think he is better than me. And when we do serve and receive drills he gives me some pointers that are as good as what I get from many coaches because he sees and knows the game.

I split matches with OSPH. And even though, my win in the second match was convincing (if I could remember the numbers they would still be besides they point), he really beat himself. In that match, all I did was keep the ball on the table and he simple did not. He gave me so many free points on empty serves where I was simply looking to set up my third ball. So it was not at all representative of the standard of play I saw from him when we were doing serve and receive drills or any drills for that matter.

So here the issue is that the technique is solid. More match simulation training for OSPH and he will jump 3-500 points in level.

For 42&BP, he actually already has that. Me and him beat a doubles pair where the higher rated player is 1900+ and the lower rated player is a hair lower level than me. It went the full distance. We won at deuce in the 5th. [SpyPhone spell check tried to turn that into DUNCE in the 5th hahahaha] but it had much more to with BackPains than with the OCDCarl.

In doubles 42&BP can do more because he has more space between points so the back and shoulder don't hamper him quite the same way. And man he is good at setting up points in doubles. Even I felt like I could play doubles with him as my teammate.


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