Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[OldschoolPenholder]

I sometimes don't listen to 42&bp LOL but I'm willing to try pips only play ... always have been in the back of my mind. In some older reply by you to me, you mentioned i may be better off switching to pips only.

Now with the Amazon, I may try out the twiddling between smooth and pips.

As always, thank you!

 

[Archosaurus]

How exactly does one twiddle well when playing penhold?

I "know" how it looks and I've tried it, but it's really something compared to shakehand twiddling.

Is there some trick to it, or does it simply require a penhold bat?

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

Punch/push-block and 'minimum effort, maximum efficiency'

but I've always thought of the punch as a "backhand stroke".

Agreed that the punch is a BH "stroke", perhaps "technique" is a better substitute for 'stroke'.

I may be misunderstanding both your and Carl's definition of "TPB". I'm thinking it means traditional penhold backhand (BH)... BH for me means 2 types - a regular speed BH stroke and a faster speed smash stroke.

Although 'punch' is a BH stroke/technique, in my mind it's not a BH ... from Chinese, that stroke/technique is literally translated as 'push block' ... with push meaning the physical motion of pushing and not the TT definition of pushing which is to add downspin or float the ball back. It really is just an aggressive block.

Carl has it right from my understanding when he wrote (although the part of 'TPB is punch' i may have a slightly different definition/understandiing):

"... an RPB takes a stroke. Where as the TPB is punch.

This distinction is similar to what I showed in that shadow video of pushing forward vs stroke."

It's a block that just goes straight out. The way I was taught to do it, there is a nuance of adding a thumb action which angles the racket to close it a bit... but mostly it's a pushing away from the body motion ... an 'aggressive block' vs a 'passive block' - where racket is stationary.

In this video that Carl posted sometime ago, you see me "blocking" Carl's loops. If you look carefully, you may see my thumb action on my "punches" and I blocked some, and some blocks i added a little forward motion, so it's like a half punch

OSPH, I know that you're technically playing forehand all table as a traditional penholder,

PSSSST... Archo, can you keep a secret? I don't want any others to know...

I don't play exactly like a traditional penholder, even when I was younger. My TT game is partly 'minimum effort, maximum efficiency' - known as a Judo maxim, other martial arts use it too. He Zhi Men is a great example of this maxim.

I will not run around all the time to use my FH as a reply to my partner's shots. If i think i can block or punch if the ball comes to my BH side, i will. I believe the body is like a car... a car has a gas tank that has a certain amount it can hold ... i don't want to use up needlessly my gas when i can with minimal effort produce a decent return when i block/punch.

Please keep my secret between you and me

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

I don't know if i ever will twiddle in the middle of a point, but in time, I may be able to if i keep training it.

Twiddling for now means i will use the smooth side when i serve to get the spinnier serves and perhaps 3rd ball looping

I will use the pips side on serve receive.

At some point, I may be able to twiddle within the point to smash with the pips after i served with the smooth, or using smooth, at some point twiddle to get the pips side to block. I will do it all while testing out the pips for both the tactical applications as well as just adding weight to the racket. Will report back soon after I get it set up.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Here is a video that shows what a traditional penhold player does with BH. You can also see the contortion he has to make to take a stroke instead of a punch. That is because of the supination of the forearm and hand needed to close the racket for a traditional penhold backhand.

Here is a shakehand BH stroke:

Notice how different this motion is! Notice how much more natural this is than the penhold swing (the smash, the one that is a stroke instead of a punch).

Here is Wang Hao's RPB:

Notice that it is similar to the shakehand BH and very different from the Traditional Penhold BH.


Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

Thank you Carl!

 

[Archosaurus]

Would it be incorrect to perform a punch block by using the leverage from your elbow?

It does make much more sense as being a pushing motion, because all good penholders seem to just push straight outwards more or less.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Would it be incorrect to perform a punch block by using the leverage from your elbow?

It does make much more sense as being a pushing motion, because all good penholders seem to just push straight outwards more or less.

Archo, stop being a fool. A punch is a punch.

A BH punch that uses the pivot at the elbow for the form of a stroke IS A STROKE not a punch.


Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

Hick's Law, Bruce Lee's Choice Reaction and the RPB

Thank you Carl for the videos.

But, I have to be honest, having seen OldSchool play and understanding that that TPB is ingrained in his system, I doubt that he should even bother with RPB.

1) his BH Punch Block is awesome.
2) his arm is wired to that contortion that makes the TPB possible.

I have a feeling trying to learn RPB would mess him up. That if he wanted a fruitful experiment working on Shakehand to improve his Penhold skills would probably be more useful.

I'm a little curious how the RPB plays having watched Liu Guo-liang, Ma Lin and of course Wang Hao. It will give me a tool to answer certain challenges which I've not overcome yet with just a punch, block or push. It will let me spin from the backhand side. However, i envision a steep learning curve and dealing with the weight will be major challenges.

Another factor also ...

Hick's law, or the Hick–Hyman Law, named after British and American psychologists William Edmund Hick and Ray Hyman, describes the time it takes for a person to make a decision as a result of the possible choices he or she has: increasing the number of choices will increase the decision time logarithmically.

Bruce Lee states it this way:

"Choice reaction requires more comprehension and deliberation than simple reaction which is instinctive, quickest and most accurate. Like speed, if you have to concentrate on more than one item or act, your reaction will be slower as each requires some degree of concentration before you can respond.

During training you should reduce unnecessary choice reactions and if possible present your opponent with a variety of probable responses, forcing him to a slower, choice-reaction position."

Bruce Lee's Fighting Method: Advanced Techniques
By Bruce Lee & M. Uyehara
Page 121

Serving/Hitting to partner's middle point is the same idea.

So having another tool may slow me down. I am curious about the added dimension it will open up for my game, however, I won't be trying the RPB in earnest anytime soon.

Thank you Carl for the compliment as well as your thoughts!

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

After seeing OSPH in action, I agree with Carl's assessment. I think OSPH ought a to stay with single sided C-Pen and play a flexible FH attacking game, with a traditional BH block, punch, and touch.

If OSPH can effectively learn how spin a ball and then make a good decision on what to do with the return (if there is one), he will increase his level of skill and fun.

MAYBE he could mess around with shakehand and use a Der_Echte Special to goof off with, but i thnk at this stage, sticking to C-Pen and improving his serves, return, and types of FH tospspin would serve him best.

I think he should just cover the BH side with something black and light, like a color sheet or any OX rubber (even if he wont use it)

The Amazon I gave him will suit him well for his close to the table play and the techniques he is developing and rapidly improving upon suit his growth well.

If the Amazon feels a tad too light, then I would recommend trying out a grip tape, that out to add good weight where it needs it, the blade is solid throat solid handle pieces, I tried taking an Amazon handle off, it is solid.

The long pips is an idea that is in the deep recesses of my pea brain. Ages ago, i tried Phantom on the back to compensate for my then-and-now-still poor serve receive. But it became a "crutch" and i took it off, trying to improve my serve receive instead. If nothing else, I will put on the long pips as weight only and not use it. But this would only be after i put on short pips and see if i can use it to my advantage.

The grip tape has never occurred to me, may try it out.

Thank you Der!

 

[Liten]

Go for the LP ox bh!
I smacked on a xiom omega iv pro on fh (thanks Carl!) and a neptune ox LP bh on a c-pen DHS pg7 I got. Surpriced myself and others with this combo at the club yesterday.
Im sticking to it for now. Great fun!

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

Go for the LP ox bh!
I smacked on a xiom omega iv pro on fh (thanks Carl!) and a neptune ox LP bh on a c-pen DHS pg7 I got. Surpriced myself and others with this combo at the club yesterday.
Im sticking to it for now. Great fun!

LOL -- ok, i will try out the LP then... but only after i try out the short pips.

Thank you Liten!

 

[Liten]

LOL -- ok, i will try out the LP then... but only after i try out the short pips.

Thank you Liten!

Do it!

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

As you know Liten, i'm new here, still kind of finding my way here and getting to know the members... are you a penholder only player or do you sometimes play shakehands?

I ask only because generally ph's will cut their rubbers to give their fingers a little space.

 

[Liten]

Oh, and go for the RBP when you feel like it. It's just another tool. If you have a nice traditional bh, use it! Try the rbp as a backup plan. I do the opposite. I use the traditional bh as a way to get those hard shots to the center of my body.

 

[Liten]

I play only ph.
The xiom rubber is one of Carls old rubbers! Thats why I didnt cut it.

These are my main blades and how I cut the rubbers. (The one in the middle is now in Carls stash someware!

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

Oh, and go for the RBP when you feel like it. It's just another tool. If you have a nice traditional bh, use it! Try the rbp as a backup plan. I do the opposite. I use the traditional bh as a way to get those hard shots to the center of my body.

I have no backhand whatsoever ... that is a bh stroke/smash ... on my bh side, i only block, punch or push.

I will try the RPB from time to time for fun, but for serious training, i will hold off until i can be consistent with my game.

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

Ah ok, somehow i may have misread the death wand swap thread ... knowing Carl is as SH, and seeing you post sometimes about PH stuff, i thought maybe you played both SH and PH. I get you now on the rubber and why it's longer.

LOL at me... sorry about that!

I play only ph.
The xiom rubber is one of Carls old rubbers! Thats why I didnt cut it.

These are my main blades and how I cut the rubbers. (The one in the middle is now in Carls stash someware!

 

[Liten]

No worries man!
Listen to that parry hotter.. he knows what he's talking about! (Exept when he tries to speak swedish... not one of he's fortés!)

 

[ttmonster]

OSPH , I recently played a player who was doing RPB with long pips , he was making about 30-40 percentage of the shots , but only against backspin ... not sure how but RPB is definitely possible with long pips.

however, I am a purist and I tend to think that using smooth on both sides and graduating to a certain level ( 2000 IMO ) is a must before starting to explore other options . Otherwise, the basics suffer and pips become more a tool to hide your weakness rather than a tool to enhance your strength or control the game in a way so that your strength can be better used.