Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[NextLevel]

Thanks for your advise. In the mean time I shall be working my arse off on improving my FH like how I previously did with my BH together with my coach. Video show & tell again to you and others in six weeks' time at my next little tourney.

Nah, it's not advice at all, it's commentary and to some degree criticism. caveated by the fact that if you believe you are close to your peak level, then my criticism is meaningless It doesn't make much sense to sing the praises of a fast blade until either
1) one is able to consistently open up vs backspin with it or
2) one is largely satisfied with one's level of play, in which case the blade hardly matters, just have fun.

But developing the timing to play quality topspin is much harder with a fast blade. Don't take my word for it, here is a well regarded coach talking about it.

That said, I will give you six months to a year to make progress against backspin, it isn't a simple thing for many and it takes time to do with confidence, even with regular equipment. That said, some do it faster and you may be amongst that group. Just pointing out that praising a fast blade based on one's ability to do well mostly against topspin before you have built out a largely advanced game is a bit premature.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

Nah, it's not advice at all, it's commentary and to some degree criticism. caveated by the fact that if you believe you are close to your peak level, then my criticism is meaningless It doesn't make much sense to sing the praises of a fast blade until either
1) one is able to consistently open up vs backspin with it or
2) one is largely satisfied with one's level of play, in which case the blade hardly matters, just have fun.

But developing the timing to play quality topspin is much harder with a fast blade. Don't take my word for it, here is a well regarded coach talking about it.

That said, I will give you six months to a year to make progress against backspin, it isn't a simple thing for many and it takes time to do with confidence, even with regular equipment. That said, some do it faster and you may be amongst that group. Just pointing out that praising a fast blade based on one's ability to do well mostly against topspin before you have built out a largely advanced game is a bit premature.

1. This is not a rebuttal but take it more as a conversation between people of like mindedness.

2. Next's point is centered mostly that new or developing player should use slower set-up ( five ply wood etc ). This is the consensus amongst most TT players and is a widely accepted narrative / doctrine However, I am sure there are always exception to the rule.

3. Let's take the case of my club-mates' son who is in the U15 category. He took lesson with my coach for approx. 3-4 months past and the coach recommended him is get a Viscaria. As for rubber it is Acuda S1 for FH & S2 for BH.

If one were to follow conventional thinking, such a fast set-up is a no-no, isn't it? But then, why does the coach asked him to get a Viscaria only after such a short time under his tutelage?

Like wise, the argument is tthat my set-up is uber fast and bouncy. However, my coach never ask me to downgrade nor get a slower set-up. I would wager, if this set-up is hurting my development, I am sure he would have voiced his opinion.

My point is; slow equipment for developing player is good advise most of the time, but if a player is under proper professional tutelage, there will be exception to this common rule.

Nonetheless I would love to hear professional input from actual coach here in this forum, e.g., @Tony's Table Tennis. What say you? Care to leave a comment of two on this subject?

p/s @VictorMoraga, perhaps you could ask your coach Stellan and get his opinion on this? Love to hear an input from someone reputable like him.

 

[NextLevel]

1. This is not a rebuttal but take it more as a conversation between people of like mindedness.

2. Next's point is centered mostly that new or developing player should use slower set-up ( five ply wood etc ). This is the consensus amongst most TT players and is a widely accepted narrative / doctrine However, I am sure there are always exception to the rule.

3. Let's take the case of my club-mates' son who is in the U15 category. He took lesson with my coach for approx. 3-4 months past and the coach recommended him is get a Viscaria. As for rubber it is Acuda S1 for FH & S2 for BH.

If one were to follow conventional thinking, such a fast set-up is a no-no, isn't it? But then, why does the coach asked him to get a Viscaria only after such a short time under his tutelage?

Like wise, the argument is tthat my set-up is uber fast and bouncy. However, my coach never ask me to downgrade nor get a slower set-up. I would wager, if this set-up is hurting my development, I am sure he would have voiced his opinion.

My point is; slow equipment for developing player is good advise most of the time, but if a player is under proper professional tutelage, there will be exception to this common rule.

Nonetheless I would love to hear professional input from actual coach here in this forum, e.g., @Tony's Table Tennis. What say you? Care to leave a comment of two on this subject?

p/s @VictorMoraga, perhaps you could ask your coach Stellan and get his opinion on this? Love to hear an input from someone reputable like him.

If we read between the lines, what you are really trying to say is that I am not qualified to comment, and that you need a more advanced coach to comment. Which is all well and good. The good thing is that an advanced coach (Tony) has already commented,

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/developing-player-with-some-potential.30608/post-397613

but you gave your opinions then,

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/developing-player-with-some-potential.30608/post-397625

and I made the same comments I made now,

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/developing-player-with-some-potential.30608/post-397630

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/developing-player-with-some-potential.30608/post-397633

and if you notice, my opinions were endorsed by one of the advanced coach who you are asking to comment, just as yours was also endorsed. Again there is nothing wrong with playing with a fast blade, but singing its praises with major technical deficiencies in your game is weird because you are not experienced enough to understand the tradeoffs you are making. Many coaches are happy to take people's money, but I do not know your coach and I do not speak for him. Adult learners often do their own thing.

If you were using a Viscaria, which while a bit faster, is still considered a looping blade (a career All+ blade user like Danny Seemiller has endorsed it), it would be one thing, but anyone who has measured the frequency of a One Ply Hinoki knows one should at least have mature backspin looping technique before using it. But again, I could be very wrong and maybe your one-ply is not that stiff. Softness also increases the feeling of dwell a little bit. After all, there are carbon blades that are really soft with innerforce design. But all that said, the most important thing is not so much what you are or are not using, it's that you continually talk about this issue of using a faster blade without having addressed the technical issue that leads most people to not recommend it and without being upfront about the fact that you haven't addressed that technical issue. So I am trying to push you to address the issue so that when you talk about using a faster blade as a good thing, people will not have to watch you play to realize that your game has most of the deficiencies and disadvantages of a fast blade when used by a learner.

In any case, this is my last post on the issue. This thread is really for sharing experiences with TT. I just find it weird when someone who has not solved the primary issues related to using fast blades continues to comment positively about them.

 

[hclnnkhg]

1. This is not a rebuttal but take it more as a conversation between people of like mindedness.

2. Next's point is centered mostly that new or developing player should use slower set-up ( five ply wood etc ). This is the consensus amongst most TT players and is a widely accepted narrative / doctrine However, I am sure there are always exception to the rule.

3. Let's take the case of my club-mates' son who is in the U15 category. He took lesson with my coach for approx. 3-4 months past and the coach recommended him is get a Viscaria. As for rubber it is Acuda S1 for FH & S2 for BH.

If one were to follow conventional thinking, such a fast set-up is a no-no, isn't it? But then, why does the coach asked him to get a Viscaria only after such a short time under his tutelage?

Like wise, the argument is tthat my set-up is uber fast and bouncy. However, my coach never ask me to downgrade nor get a slower set-up. I would wager, if this set-up is hurting my development, I am sure he would have voiced his opinion.

My point is; slow equipment for developing player is good advise most of the time, but if a player is under proper professional tutelage, there will be exception to this common rule.

Nonetheless I would love to hear professional input from actual coach here in this forum, e.g., @Tony's Table Tennis. What say you? Care to leave a comment of two on this subject?

p/s @VictorMoraga, perhaps you could ask your coach Stellan and get his opinion on this? Love to hear an input from someone reputable like him.

With proper coaching, you can improve with almost any setup. But the speed (and grip etc.) of the bat would affect how fast you can improve. My personal experience is that the player needs to be fast themselves in order to handle a fast setup.

when I use a super-fast blade, I often hold back my swing, especially during footwork drills (because the ball will come back too fast). In matches, I become more reliant of hitting a winner instead of recovering. These are bad for development. Of course, you may be the exception.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I am willing to put money on it that, if Gozo took 6 months to only play with that Acoustic, and put whatever rubbers he wanted on it, he would improve faster and within 2-3 months would be winning more frequently, handling return of serve, short game and placement on attacking shots with the blade with more control. Same if he got an inner fiber ALC blade.

He would also start using his body better and his stroke mechanics would improve.

After 6 months of playing with the Off-or Off speed blade, when he tried to use his current setup, he might even be able to feel how much he is comprising his stroke mechanics by using that wildly fast, wildly heavy setup.

If he took the time to really get used to a setup that is better suited to his needs, at some point he would wonder why he was so resistant to good advice.

As far as a kid with talent, being recommended to use a Viscaria, to me that sounds like good advice. It is worth not confusing kid learning sport skills and adults. Kids are like sponges and learn really fast. Adults, it is rare for an adult to learn totally new physical skills anywhere close to as fast as anyone under 20 years old. But especially under 14. They see a few good strokes from the coach and you wonder how their technique got so good so fast.

An adult thinks they are doing a good stroke and then they see it and wonder why, what they think they are doing and what they are actually doing are so different.

 

[Wrighty67]

Have to agree with NL here - I have followed his advice recently and reverted to all wood (5) and slower rubbers. It’s early days but I feel more confident hitting fuller strokes to generate better spin and so feel more confident I’m moving forwards technically. The interesting thing is my bat really doesn’t feel slow.

 

[NextLevel]

Have to agree with NL here - I have followed his advice recently and reverted to all wood (5) and slower rubbers. It’s early days but I feel more confident hitting fuller strokes to generate better spin and so feel more confident I’m moving forwards technically. The interesting thing is my bat really doesn’t feel slow.

You current setup isn't slow at all but using a slow setup is not the main point here - your setups were wrong(IMNSHO) in more subtle ways than Gozo's. There are so many ways to win points in table tennis that you struggle to learn with fast blades that fast blades are better appreciated when you have learned most the other ways but are mostly lacking in speed, which is not what you primarily need to beat most of the players you play against. It can help, but things like placement, consistency and spin usually are better. And how much speed to add at that point, if you want to add speed, is almost never about ramping up to 300mph from 100mph. It is usually subtle tests which involve some of the blades you have already used to see what you gain and what you lose as you ramp up the speed. That said, it is no one's business what you want to use if you are happy with how you play. But one shouldn't confidently say that what they are playing with isn't interfering with how they can win points, especially when there are strokes they cant execute which faster equipment traditionally makes it harder to execute.

Right now I am using an Innerforce T5000. I often want to change it but there is one stroke that keeps me using it. if you have used a pure Tamca 5000 blade you probably know the stroke. But knowing me it might surprise you that that stroke would affect my choice of blade. I suspect though that I will try to find a blade that has the same speed but is spinnier when I want to switch but I suspect I will not switch for another 4 months at least.

This was last updated on November 1, 2022, and I suspect a lot of blades have not yet been submitted, but I would say that measuring blade frequency is extremely helpful for understanding whether a blade is generally good for you or not as your technique becomes more and more mature. That said, Hinoki in some ways can be an interesting confounder.

Blade Speed Comparison Sheet

Given that most of the links are buried in the original thread started by slevin, I wanted to make a...

mytabletennis.net

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Just something to note with a faster blade, especially if you are not really spinning the ball but instead slapping it:

With a faster blade, the arc of your shot will have a flatter trajectory because the ball going faster (even if it had a lot of spin) will have less of the arc that topspin causes.

One of the things this means is your shots will always land further from the net after clearing the net. This can be fine. But, if you are stuck with that it has a BIG downside: if you can arc the ball more and land the ball closer to the net on your opponent’s side: YOU CAN CREATE MUCH WIDER ANGLES when you are placing your shots. When you cannot, you are stuck with slapping the ball down the middle of the table.

Against an opponent who is not as skilled, a fastball between the end lines of the table may be fine. But against a skilled player, they will punish you for that kind of placement that allows them to take control of the point and use the pace of your shots against you.

The spin, that helps arc the ball and give you those wider angles helps you move your opponent out of position and also causes your shots to be harder to handle for your opponent. As your level gets higher, you realize more and more how important spinning the ball and handling your opponent’s spin are to higher level playing skills.

Often when lower level players look at certain higher level players who look awkward and then the lower level player does not realize how good that awkward player is, it is largely because they can’t see and don’t realize the level of spin the awkward player is handling and dealing out.

As NextLevel has said, if you are happy with your level, then there is no need to talk about this stuff. But if you are trying to get better and you are not good at generating spin, and you are awkward with, serving, handling return of serve, pushes, short balls, and controlling where you place the ball on any shot including pushes and offensive shots, if you frequently push easy balls 3 feet too long to land on the table during a match, then probably, a setup that is not so fast and will help you learn to generate better spin on serves, pushes, and offensive shots would actually help you improve.

It might also help that player learn to read incoming spin better.

And if all of those things are happening (pushes two feet too high and four feet too long, low spin on serves, pushes and offensive shots, balls that fly in unpredictable directions…..etc) in match play, and the person does not realize the equipment may not be suited for his/her skill level, well then…..I guess, everyone has a right to make their own choices. But I have a feeling, if you are still playing 5 years from now, you will understand some things that will make you laugh about some of this.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

if Japan can beat US at baseball on their home soil, then everything is possible !

its possible to beat Team China in Table Tennis, we have to believe !

 

[turbozed]

Thanks guys. I saw a physio and he said it is mostly serratia anterior strain, but could also be intercostal muscle strain. He said to rest for 4 days then start exercise again with gradual load increase.

Sounds like you got lucky. Muscle strains are generally way more benign than something involving tendons and ligaments.

Bench press is not inherently injury inducing *as long as you have proper form.* This means keeping your elbows tucked, staying tight, and keeping your scapula retracted and in firm contact with the bench. If you are benching with arms flared or your scapula is coming forward off the bench, you will run into all sorts of problems.

 

[NextLevel]

Avoiding playing pips players with the belief that your game will just automatically take care of itself against such players is a huge mistake IMHO. I have seen with my own two eyes 2200 players lose to 1800 pips players largely because they had no clue what to do, where an 1800 inverted player can beat the pips player 3‐0. I have been that 1800 inverted player at various points in playing TT. And yesterday, it probably happened again.

Got pulled into Dallas on a weekday evening so I decided to head to the club on the way home to meet a guy who just started playing a year or so ago, is around my age but isn't getting any formal coaching. I signed up for a table but for some reason it took a while before I got to play on it. My opponent was probably a bit tired by then but I noticed he had beaten everyone on the table. So we start the warm up and I noticed he had pips on the backhand, probably some short/medium stuff or long with sponge as he could definitely impart some spin with it though not a lot. I never looked at them closely but noted them mostly so I wouldn't be surprised by ball quality.

The first game was tight I had a big lead but let it get to 9‐9. But I pulled it out with a backspin/topspin serve combination to get to 11‐9. Won the second game easily, went down in the third game but pulled that out fairly easily as well.

After I was done, a hour later, my friend asked me what the match score was and I said 3-0. He was surprised, saying the guy had beaten everyone in the club that night, including the guy with powerful forehand I had lost to on Saturday. Which only makes sense to me on the basis of the pips backhand and maybe old school serving but nothing else.

It's partly exposure (Philly had many old school pips players), it's partly attitude (many people don't want to do what isn't fun), but don't avoid the challenge of developing the timing (and sometimes technique) to hit the dead pips ball. It will give you opportunities to have good results where people who either didn't have the chance or just passed it up when they had it will struggle and often fail.

It is best to start very early in your TT as paradoxically, a flatter game plays better against pips. If you continue to play against pips as you get better, you will remain in touch with that flatter game as well as the spin game and develop more variety against weak spin balls and you will have a good idea how to keep rotation on a ball that your opponent is trying to keep dead so you will not be sure what to do to it.

That's my take anyways. But above all yesterday was a good practice against a few lower rated players, just got to work on consistent shots in the lower and higher parts of my mid range.

 

[hclnnkhg]

Avoiding playing pips players with the belief that your game will just automatically take care of itself against such players is a huge mistake IMHO. I have seen with my own two eyes 2200 players lose to 1800 pips players largely because they had no clue what to do, where an 1800 inverted player can beat the pips player 3‐0. I have been that 1800 inverted player at various points in playing TT. And yesterday, it probably happened again.

Got pulled into Dallas on a weekday evening so I decided to head to the club on the way home to meet a guy who just started playing a year or so ago, is around my age but isn't getting any formal coaching. I signed up for a table but for some reason it took a while before I got to play on it. My opponent was probably a bit tired by then but I noticed he had beaten everyone on the table. So we start the warm up and I noticed he had pips on the backhand, probably some short/medium stuff or long with sponge as he could definitely impart some spin with it though not a lot. I never looked at them closely but noted them mostly so I wouldn't be surprised by ball quality.

The first game was tight I had a big lead but let it get to 9‐9. But I pulled it out with a backspin/topspin serve combination to get to 11‐9. Won the second game easily, went down in the third game but pulled that out fairly easily as well.

After I was done, a hour later, my friend asked me what the match score was and I said 3-0. He was surprised, saying the guy had beaten everyone in the club that night, including the guy with powerful forehand I had lost to on Saturday. Which only makes sense to me on the basis of the pips backhand and maybe old school serving but nothing else.

It's partly exposure (Philly had many old school pips players), it's partly attitude (many people don't want to do what isn't fun), but don't avoid the challenge of developing the timing (and sometimes technique) to hit the dead pips ball. It will give you opportunities to have good results where people who either didn't have the chance or just passed it up when they had it will struggle and often fail.

It is best to start very early in your TT as paradoxically, a flatter game plays better against pips. If you continue to play against pips as you get better, you will remain in touch with that flatter game as well as the spin game and develop more variety against weak spin balls and you will have a good idea how to keep rotation on a ball that your opponent is trying to keep dead so you will not be sure what to do to it.

That's my take anyways. But above all yesterday was a good practice against a few lower rated players, just got to work on consistent shots in the lower and higher parts of my mid range.

Playing flat against LP works quite well as they cannot impact strong spin on the ball by themselves. But another thing to note is that LP can be a lot slower than inverted rubbers. A floaty ball coming off LP isn't as easy to attack as a floaty ball coming off inverted rubbers. Anyway playing against LP is a good test and exercise of my footwork, concentration and consistently, I quite like it (when I have the energy).

 

[NextLevel]

Playing flat against LP works quite well as they cannot impact strong spin on the ball by themselves. But another thing to note is that LP can be a lot slower than inverted rubbers. A floaty ball coming off LP isn't as easy to attack as a floaty ball coming off inverted rubbers. Anyway playing against LP is a good test and exercise of my footwork, concentration and consistently, I quite like it (when I have the energy).

This is true, I tend to play very close to the table so this helps me against the pips players and hurts me against the inverted players. I don't need the ball to come off to attack it but the inverted player who backs off will get affected by balls that don't come off the table.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

This is true, I tend to play very close to the table so this helps me against the pips players and hurts me against the inverted players. I don't need the ball to come off to attack it but the inverted player who backs off will get affected by balls that don't come off the table.

This is soooooooo me...

Pips balls always gets me mis-timing. Hate pips!

 

[SleepyMaster]

In terms of a 5ply vs carbon, there is no same way for all. For a total newbie allwood should be a must. And if you have a proper coach and training a lot, progression and ability to handle carbon is only matter of time. But if you can't do open up loop with stability, can't spin the ball with the quality - just stick to an allwood. There is a plenty of a very good players, that are still playing with Primorac off- and its just suits better for their needs and style. For me personally, transition from 5ply to innerforce style was almost effortless. But i have trained six times a week. Now i can easily play with such type of construction blades. Alc or zlc doesn't really matter. I even try to play with outer carbon, and on the training drills its fun and even cool, but stability of my shots is decreasing while i was playing real matches. Two or three balls lands out off the table and you already lose a match by it, but sometimes you can land a crazy speed loop winner. Stability is the key in TT, so players should keep up with setup, that giving them consistency and stability, if their goal is to progress. If you just having fun on the table - play with the blade you like, by the style of the handle or just be an EJ

 

[Choosikick]

This is soooooooo me...

Pips balls always gets me mis-timing. Hate pips!

You need to play with pips yourself and you will change your mind about them!
I also once really disliked players with pips, but then I started playing pips with players weaker than myself and just fell in love with pipes. This is a very interesting game, there can be many long and exciting draws. Now I play with two smooth rubbers against a pips and enjoy the game!

 

[NextLevel]

In terms of a 5ply vs carbon, there is no same way for all. For a total newbie allwood should be a must. And if you have a proper coach and training a lot, progression and ability to handle carbon is only matter of time. But if you can't do open up loop with stability, can't spin the ball with the quality - just stick to an allwood. There is a plenty of a very good players, that are still playing with Primorac off- and its just suits better for their needs and style. For me personally, transition from 5ply to innerforce style was almost effortless. But i have trained six times a week. Now i can easily play with such type of construction blades. Alc or zlc doesn't really matter. I even try to play with outer carbon, and on the training drills its fun and even cool, but stability of my shots is decreasing while i was playing real matches. Two or three balls lands out off the table and you already lose a match by it, but sometimes you can land a crazy speed loop winner. Stability is the key in TT, so players should keep up with setup, that giving them consistency and stability, if their goal is to progress. If you just having fun on the table - play with the blade you like, by the style of the handle or just be an EJ

I don't even think there is a 5 ply vs Carbon debate seriously anymore with the new plastic ball. The debate is really whether one should learn TT with a really fast blade and what it means to be a really stiff and fast blade. That's why I brought in the blade frequency chart to take the subjectivity out of it. Unless you are playing a smash/hitting style, anything above 1600Hz is definitely insane, and if you are a beginner anything above 1400Hz or even 1300Hz might be a bit much, absolute beginners should be closer to 1100Hz. It isn't just about All Wood, after all, a 1-ply hinoki is all wood, it is about what a reasonable things to use to build your game. Viscaria, especially the older slower ones, are very reasonable blades, more so with the plastic ball. 1-ply hinoki is closer to Garaydia T-5000/Schlager Carbon than to Viscaria.

 

[SleepyMaster]

I don't even think there is a 5 ply vs Carbon debate seriously anymore with the new plastic ball. The debate is really whether one should learn TT with a really fast blade and what it means to be a really stiff and fast blade. That's why I brought in the blade frequency chart to take the subjectivity out of it. Unless you are playing a smash/hitting style, anything above 1600Hz is definitely insane, and if you are a beginner anything above 1400Hz or even 1300Hz might be a bit much, absolute beginners should be closer to 1100Hz. It isn't just about All Wood, after all, a 1-ply hinoki is all wood, it is about what a reasonable things to use to build your game. Viscaria, especially the older slower ones, are very reasonable blades, more so with the plastic ball. 1-ply hinoki is closer to Garaydia T-5000/Schlager Carbon than to Viscaria.

Doesn’t one ply hinoki is the choice of an super skilled penholders with shortpips?
For developing players there is much better options for sure

 

[NextLevel]

Doesn’t one ply hinoki is the choice of an super skilled penholders with shortpips?
For developing players there is much better options for sure

I know some old school topspin players who like it with inverted rubber in the old days as well. But as you said, for developing players, there are better options. But everyone can use what they like. I once used Giant Dragon Balsa blades when I was learning and even played with a Giant Dragon defensive blade (as an offensive player) for a year. This was with the celluloid ball though, no way I can do it with the current plastic ball.

 

[Choosikick]

I know some old school topspin players who like it with inverted rubber in the old days as well. But as you said, for developing players, there are better options. But everyone can use what they like. I once used Giant Dragon Balsa blades when I was learning and even played with a Giant Dragon defensive blade (as an offensive player) for a year. This was with the celluloid ball though, no way I can do it with the current plastic ball.

I agree, when there was a celluloid ball, I played with a five-ply Stiga Tube Allround blade for a long time. When I trained a lot, I switched to a five-layer Stiga Tube Off blade and that was enough for me, now I can’t live without carbon