Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[blahness]

I figured out something very simple that caused me to have very bad transitions between BH and FH loop close table lol. Keep the racket up (slightly above elbow level)! If the racket is dropped prematurely what that would cause is to have too much upwards looping and not forward enough and not being able to hold the table position properly. The funny thing is I always keep the bat higher on the BH side and not so much on the FH side because I tend to like looping with huge spin. But ironically my BH close table is very strong while my FH close table is terrible, and this is probably the main factor.

 

[dingyibvs]

I've found a new way to approach the timing issue on the BH side. Instead of focusing on taking the ball a millisecond earlier or later, which can change wildly depending on the incoming ball and the intended placement, I just focus on meeting the ball when my arm is going in the direction in the semi-circulate swing toward the intended direction.

It may sound like an obvious as well as pointless difference, but it really works! It not only helps with timing, but with footwork as well. I now move my body when toward the ball when it's not possible to hit it at the right moment.

 

[dingyibvs]

Went to the Pleasanton club tonight, first I warmed up with a left handed traditional penholder. When I warmed up against him 2 weeks ago while doing BH/BH counters I could hardly keep a rally going. The TPB block comes back so dead and it's a down the line shot and I just wasn't able to do it. Using the new method of matching the timing with the arc of my arm, I was able to keep a rally going this time. I was very pleased with that.

I played a couple doubles matches after that, the players weren't very good and was not good at attempting to exploit my BH so I got relatively few opportunities to use it. I did make a high proportion of my BH opening loops, albeit against pretty poor quality pushes.

I then had a solid 1 hr practice session against a left handed SH player. We had some pretty good practices BH/BH down the line, and BH/BH cross table but with me at my FH position. I wasn't planning to practice my down the line shot yet, but with so many opportunities against left handers today I had to take advantage. Afterwards we played some free play, and man did I feel natural with my BH. The opening loop is still a work in progress, I'm not getting into position fast enough sometimes, but when I have a bit of time it was pretty on point. In open rallies my BH felt very natural blocking, countering, and looping.

With today's experience, I think I'm gonna move my time table up a bit. I'm gonna start practicing the down the line shot this weekend. I'll also mix in some return board work and add some in-and-out movement to my BH opening loop training. I also need to get better at shot selection on the BH side. Too often I'm late to the ball and it's already below the table and I'm still trying to add some pace to the ball.

I can't wait till I start putting everything together and start pivoting and working on my FH again. Put it together with a competent BH and I think my game is gonna step up another level.

 

[blahness]

Went to the Pleasanton club tonight, first I warmed up with a left handed traditional penholder. When I warmed up against him 2 weeks ago while doing BH/BH counters I could hardly keep a rally going. The TPB block comes back so dead and it's a down the line shot and I just wasn't able to do it. Using the new method of matching the timing with the arc of my arm, I was able to keep a rally going this time. I was very pleased with that.

I played a couple doubles matches after that, the players weren't very good and was not good at attempting to exploit my BH so I got relatively few opportunities to use it. I did make a high proportion of my BH opening loops, albeit against pretty poor quality pushes.

I then had a solid 1 hr practice session against a left handed SH player. We had some pretty good practices BH/BH down the line, and BH/BH cross table but with me at my FH position. I wasn't planning to practice my down the line shot yet, but with so many opportunities against left handers today I had to take advantage. Afterwards we played some free play, and man did I feel natural with my BH. The opening loop is still a work in progress, I'm not getting into position fast enough sometimes, but when I have a bit of time it was pretty on point. In open rallies my BH felt very natural blocking, countering, and looping.

With today's experience, I think I'm gonna move my time table up a bit. I'm gonna start practicing the down the line shot this weekend. I'll also mix in some return board work and add some in-and-out movement to my BH opening loop training. I also need to get better at shot selection on the BH side. Too often I'm late to the ball and it's already below the table and I'm still trying to add some pace to the ball.

I can't wait till I start putting everything together and start pivoting and working on my FH again. Put it together with a competent BH and I think my game is gonna step up another level.

I recently had some insights to down the line BH. The most dangerous fade BHs (with the left to right bat movement) are pretty much only possible if the incoming ball is placed a bit to the middle and doesn't exit the sides of the table. Once the ball exits the side of the table, this is close to impossible to do. Instead, the best way to place it down the line is to actually do a right to left bat movement (with the reverse weight transfer from right leg to left).

 

[Wrighty67]

So I’m struggling with a tendency I have on BH cross table topspin shots where I tend to come across the ball a little too much, meaning my placement is mostly mid table (BH side) and I can’t consistently find the wide BH. I’m almost fading the ball if that makes sense.

It also manifests on BH drive while warming up.

I know, logically, it’s a tendency to move across the ball (left to right) without enough forward motion - but I’m struggling to find a fix.

Anybody struggled with this?

 

[dingyibvs]

So I’m struggling with a tendency I have on BH cross table topspin shots where I tend to come across the ball a little too much, meaning my placement is mostly mid table (BH side) and I can’t consistently find the wide BH. I’m almost fading the ball if that makes sense.

It also manifests on BH drive while warming up.

I know, logically, it’s a tendency to move across the ball (left to right) without enough forward motion - but I’m struggling to find a fix.

Anybody struggled with this?

I did, and here's how I approached it. First focus on your arm motion, it'll be less left to right and more forward, so the forceful part of your movement will be forward directing. Then just make sure you racket meets the ball during that forcefully forward part of your motion.

Classic teaching says you should wait a bit more, but how are you supposed to execute that? Wait 60ms for a 60kph shot, but 75ms for a 40kph shot? That's not realistic. Just time your hit with the forward going part of your arm motion, and you'll naturally wait a bit longer as it's earlier in your motion. You'll also naturally position your body so that the ball arrives at your arm's hitting zone.

 

[dingyibvs]

Yes - with Viscaria you have to focus a bit more on brushing because the ball will fly out if you try to hit too much. You still need to sink it into the sponge tho with the body. What I like about that there's a very nice separation of concerns between the body and arm - the forearm is used for brushing and the body for impacting the ball. Kinda like the ZJK FH brushing stroke now that I think about what would work best.

At the end of my training session, which as mentioned before was focused on the BH down the line shot and added some return board play, I gave the Viscaria another try. The T05 side still felt kinda meh. It's pretty fast, but doesn't hold the ball well. The D09c side felt really good, and against the return board still felt blazing fast compared to the W968.

What really impressed me was the BH down the line shot. That shot involves a smaller BH motion unless you're farther away from the table and have the time to wind up, so it's really, really hard to generate good quality with the W968. With the Viscaria, however, it was so easy it felt like a cheat code! It's not just that it was so easy to generate good pace, the placement is also super spot on. Idk why, but it just goes where I'm pointing. I remember Fang Bo saying that he recommends amateurs to use the Viscaria rather than the W968, not just because it's tough for amateurs to generate the power to use it, but the slower incoming shots don't help either.

Oh the FH side, I do need to brush a bit more, the trajectory is a bit flatter when hit hard. In counter-looping close to the table against very spinny but relatively slow opening loops this actually works in my favor as I can get good contact without overshooting the table. Sometimes against those types of balls if you don't brush just right with the W968 it'll react very strongly to the incoming spin and take the ball too long.

I've just glued a sheet of D09c to the Viscaria's BH side, I'll give it a try at the club tomorrow. I think I'm gonna glue D09c and D05 to my TB ALC to try out the D05 as well. Since the D09c vs. T05 comparison was very similar on the Viscaria as on the W968, I do think it'll be similar and I'll prefer the D09c, but it'll be interesting to try.

 

[NextLevel]

So I’m struggling with a tendency I have on BH cross table topspin shots where I tend to come across the ball a little too much, meaning my placement is mostly mid table (BH side) and I can’t consistently find the wide BH. I’m almost fading the ball if that makes sense.

It also manifests on BH drive while warming up.

I know, logically, it’s a tendency to move across the ball (left to right) without enough forward motion - but I’m struggling to find a fix.

Anybody struggled with this?

Hit the left side of the ball much more, continue to hit more extreme points on the left side of the ball and try different follow through until you get the effect you want. It is easier to go wide when pulled wide or when you get a shorter ball.

 

[dingyibvs]

Hit the left side of the ball much more, continue to hit more extreme points on the left side of the ball and try different follow through until you get the effect you want. It is easier to go wide when pulled wide or when you get a shorter ball.

In my experience it's usually a timing issue. Take the ball a bit too late and it heads more to the middle. If you don't fix the timing issue then hitting the ball more to its left would just make a lot of shots go out the side. As mentioned a few posts ago I've found a different way of looking at timing. With this new method, in just a couple sessions my BH warm-ups and practices went from all over the place cross table and simply not landing shots consistently down the line to consistent placement to my partner's BH corner whether it's against right or left handers.

 

[NextLevel]

In my experience it's usually a timing issue. Take the ball a bit too late and it heads more to the middle. If you don't fix the timing issue then hitting the ball more to its left would just make a lot of shots go out the side. As mentioned a few posts ago I've found a different way of looking at timing. With this new method, in just a couple sessions my BH warm-ups and practices went from all over the place cross table and simply not landing shots consistently down the line to consistent placement to my partner's BH corner whether it's against right or left handers.

It can be a timing issue for people who don't control their swings independent of their body rotation - it is also easier to hit the ball cross court when you take it earlier and down the line when you take it earlier (if you look at what happens on a circular/curvilinear path, this makes sense).

That said, if you angle or face your racket in the right direction to contact the ball on a specific spot and practicing make your swing a bit independent of your body rotation and towards your target, timing matters less. Your rotation always powers the shot and then you focus on make sure your swing is doing what it supposed to do to direct the ball. This is my preferred approach rather than leaving it mostly to timing. Of course, one could argue that on backhand, hitting the back or right side of the ball is easier when you take the ball late and hitting the left side of the ball is easier when you take the ball early (again for the timing and circular reasons given earlier), but if you learn to swing towards your target (on both backhand and forehand), the timing issues matter less than hitting the ball where you want to hit it towards.

 

[Wrighty67]

It can be a timing issue for people who don't control their swings independent of their body rotation - it is also easier to hit the ball cross court when you take it earlier and down the line when you take it earlier (if you look at what happens on a circular/curvilinear path, this makes sense).

That said, if you angle or face your racket in the right direction to contact the ball on a specific spot and practicing make your swing a bit independent of your body rotation and towards your target, timing matters less. Your rotation always powers the shot and then you focus on make sure your swing is doing what it supposed to do to direct the ball. This is my preferred approach rather than leaving it mostly to timing. Of course, one could argue that on backhand, hitting the back or right side of the ball is easier when you take the ball late and hitting the left side of the ball is easier when you take the ball early (again for the timing and circular reasons given earlier), but if you learn to swing towards your target (on both backhand and forehand), the timing issues matter less than hitting the ball where you want to hit it towards.

I think that the bulk of my issue is not swinging forwards enough - by way of example, the shot I find most difficult to play with consistency is a simple BH drive when warming up. I tend not to complete the movement that would see the wrist extend and the ball sent across the BH angle. Likewise when BH opening up, I often impart side spin through moving across the back of the ball in a side to side plane as opposed to forwards in a more vertical plane (back to front)

I try to hit more forwards and finish pointing at the net, but it does not come easily or naturally and subconsciously I feel like I am going to hit the ball into the net if I don't get enough loop spin on it. When I had a session with Sam Walker last year, he pointed out that his BH loop vs backspin and BH topspin start from the same place and that he doesn't drop the bat lower for the loop vs backspin, but instead just hits the ball slightly lower and adds a bit more wrist extension to counter the backspin and ensure sufficient top to bring it down.

 

[NextLevel]

I think that the bulk of my issue is not swinging forwards enough - by way of example, the shot I find most difficult to play with consistency is a simple BH drive when warming up. I tend not to complete the movement that would see the wrist extend and the ball sent across the BH angle. Likewise when BH opening up, I often impart side spin through moving across the back of the ball in a side to side plane as opposed to forwards in a more vertical plane (back to front)

I try to hit more forwards and finish pointing at the net, but it does not come easily or naturally and subconsciously I feel like I am going to hit the ball into the net if I don't get enough loop spin on it. When I had a session with Sam Walker last year, he pointed out that his BH loop vs backspin and BH topspin start from the same place and that he doesn't drop the bat lower for the loop vs backspin, but instead just hits the ball slightly lower and adds a bit more wrist extension to counter the backspin and ensure sufficient top to bring it down.

Mental models and swing executions and their mappings onto each other are unique for every individual and this is what makes coaching fun and frustrating at the same time. I have seen 2200+ players hit the ball exactly as you describe it for what it is worth. They impart that sidespin and often get their opponents to block the ball into the net. As long as the shot is consistent, I wouldn't lose sleep over it unless you are looking for something specific.

As for Sam Walker, pros usually have stances that keep them relatively low to the ball so their swing trajectories may not feel like dramatic modifications. However, for those of us with straighter legs, if you do not get that bat low enough you will have trouble finding a good contact point to play against heavy backspin. A professional coach taught me that the first motion one must perform when playing a high level backhand topspin vs backspin is to get into a squat. Sam may very well do this without realizing he is doing it and this will make the stroke feel the same even if it is very different in what it is actually doing.

Of course, I could be completely wrong about a pro's technique. But one thing you learn after having wasted as much time with this sport as I have is that people are not as self-aware as their self-reporting might lead you to believe, even on trivial things like grip changes. So much small stuff happens over time that what most people are reporting is the last brick they laid upon their technical edifice. But all that said, there is no other way to communicate things other than to try stuff and hope it works.

A lot of stuff is about balancing timing with swing speeds. In the end you can only experiment and practice and see what works. Push the limits of your technique. But it is a hard sport. Something may work great in practice and then in a match, small timing issues through you off. IT is not a sport for the timid if making mistakes makes you scared.

 

[Wrighty67]

Mental models and swing executions and their mappings onto each other are unique for every individual and this is what makes coaching fun and frustrating at the same time. I have seen 2200+ players hit the ball exactly as you describe it for what it is worth. They impart that sidespin and often get their opponents to block the ball into the net. As long as the shot is consistent, I wouldn't lose sleep over it unless you are looking for something specific.

As for Sam Walker, pros usually have stances that keep them relatively low to the ball so their swing trajectories may not feel like dramatic modifications. However, for those of us with straighter legs, if you do not get that bat low enough you will have trouble finding a good contact point to play against heavy backspin. A professional coach taught me that the first motion one must perform when playing a high level backhand topspin vs backspin is to get into a squat. Sam may very well do this without realizing he is doing it and this will make the stroke feel the same even if it is very different in what it is actually doing.

Of course, I could be completely wrong about a pro's technique. But one thing you learn after having wasted as much time with this sport as I have is that people are not as self-aware as their self-reporting might lead you to believe, even on trivial things like grip changes. So much small stuff happens over time that what most people are reporting is the last brick they laid upon their technical edifice. But all that said, there is no other way to communicate things other than to try stuff and hope it works.

A lot of stuff is about balancing timing with swing speeds. In the end you can only experiment and practice and see what works. Push the limits of your technique. But it is a hard sport. Something may work great in practice and then in a match, small timing issues through you off. IT is not a sport for the timid if making mistakes makes you scared.

All makes sense NL. I am currently short of a decent BH topspin into that corner and so am missing out on those angles - all my BH shots to 2/3 of the table.

Sam - yep, he’s pretty low but the main point he was making was that it’s not necessary to “lift” the ball vs backspin but achieve the right point of contact and commit fully to generate the wrist speed.

 

[NextLevel]

All makes sense NL. I am currently short of a decent BH topspin into that corner and so am missing out on those angles - all my BH shots to 2/3 of the table.

Sam - yep, he’s pretty low but the main point he was making was that it’s not necessary to “lift” the ball vs backspin but achieve the right point of contact and commit fully to generate the wrist speed.

Yes, he is right, but I think sometimes, these discussions can be confusing when not all the variables are discussed. I almost never talk about lifting backspin, I tell people to thing of making a bigger spin circle. The popular video from Ti Long does explain the steps in angle adjustment perfectly and for a long time, I used to hit backspin on the backhand even when I thought I was looping it because I was using open angle techniques.

For wide angles, it is important to not think of making the ball go deep but to make it drop short. IT is definitely a hard shot to hit with power unless you get a high ball.

 

[Wrighty67]

Yes, he is right, but I think sometimes, these discussions can be confusing when not all the variables are discussed. I almost never talk about lifting backspin, I tell people to thing of making a bigger spin circle. The popular video from Ti Long does explain the steps in angle adjustment perfectly and for a long time, I used to hit backspin on the backhand even when I thought I was looping it because I was using open angle techniques.

For wide angles, it is important to not think of making the ball go deep but to make it drop short. IT is definitely a hard shot to hit with power unless you get a high ball.

Could you explain this piece for me;

“ for a long time, I used to hit backspin on the backhand even when I thought I was looping it because I was using open angle techniques.”

 

[NextLevel]

Could you explain this piece for me;

“ for a long time, I used to hit backspin on the backhand even when I thought I was looping it because I was using open angle techniques.”

I used to do a backhand version of what Ti Long does here around 4:40 in, just smaller and flatter because it was the backhand - similar to the pancake flipping that Ma Long sometimes does on the backhand:

 

[Emin]

In General, the fastest May to finish Multitasking is to singletask multiple times.

For TT, if you want to improve your backhand, including Timing, placement, arc etc...
Take it one by one.
For 2 or 3 Training Session, focus only Timing, dont bother with the Rest for that day.
Watch some pros with Intention of understanding and getting a feel of their timing.
Imagine your self getting the Timing right in play,
Dont judge your self or put too much conscious effort into fixing it etc.
The usual stuff i advise here.

So, take it one step at a time and put your attention on that one aspect that you are on.
Dont take it all at once.

 

[dingyibvs]

In General, the fastest May to finish Multitasking is to singletask multiple times.

For TT, if you want to improve your backhand, including Timing, placement, arc etc...
Take it one by one.
For 2 or 3 Training Session, focus only Timing, dont bother with the Rest for that day.
Watch some pros with Intention of understanding and getting a feel of their timing.
Imagine your self getting the Timing right in play,
Dont judge your self or put too much conscious effort into fixing it etc.
The usual stuff i advise here.

So, take it one step at a time and put your attention on that one aspect that you are on.
Dont take it all at once.

Absolutely true! When I started reworking my BH 3 months ago, I started with the most basic structures. No wrist, no body, no footwork, just hit the ball with good enough timing that I can feel my racket catch and release the ball. I spent a few weeks doing that before I started adding wrist. Now I'm trying to incorporate the body, which I still isn't second nature yet but hopefully will be soon.

One step at a time. If you don't have the timing down yet, don't work on others. Those other things will alter your timing and just add more variables.

 

[Der_Echte]

Absolutely true! When I started reworking my BH 3 months ago, I started with the most basic structures. No wrist, no body, no footwork, just hit the ball with good enough timing that I can feel my racket catch and release the ball. I spent a few weeks doing that before I started adding wrist. Now I'm trying to incorporate the body, which I still isn't second nature yet but hopefully will be soon.

One step at a time. If you don't have the timing down yet, don't work on others. Those other things will alter your timing and just add more variables.

Der_Echte tends to advocate for such progressive little by little development of a shot where there are many moving pieces.

Adults have a very hard time trying to get complicated process right by trying to do all the new steps at the same time when they haven't gotten down timing and biomechanics instinctively... it just adds up to a hot mess trying to do everything at the same time.

 

[blahness]

At the end of my training session, which as mentioned before was focused on the BH down the line shot and added some return board play, I gave the Viscaria another try. The T05 side still felt kinda meh. It's pretty fast, but doesn't hold the ball well. The D09c side felt really good, and against the return board still felt blazing fast compared to the W968.

What really impressed me was the BH down the line shot. That shot involves a smaller BH motion unless you're farther away from the table and have the time to wind up, so it's really, really hard to generate good quality with the W968. With the Viscaria, however, it was so easy it felt like a cheat code! It's not just that it was so easy to generate good pace, the placement is also super spot on. Idk why, but it just goes where I'm pointing. I remember Fang Bo saying that he recommends amateurs to use the Viscaria rather than the W968, not just because it's tough for amateurs to generate the power to use it, but the slower incoming shots don't help either.

Oh the FH side, I do need to brush a bit more, the trajectory is a bit flatter when hit hard. In counter-looping close to the table against very spinny but relatively slow opening loops this actually works in my favor as I can get good contact without overshooting the table. Sometimes against those types of balls if you don't brush just right with the W968 it'll react very strongly to the incoming spin and take the ball too long.

I've just glued a sheet of D09c to the Viscaria's BH side, I'll give it a try at the club tomorrow. I think I'm gonna glue D09c and D05 to my TB ALC to try out the D05 as well. Since the D09c vs. T05 comparison was very similar on the Viscaria as on the W968, I do think it'll be similar and I'll prefer the D09c, but it'll be interesting to try.

Wait till you try D05 on Viscaria - this BH combination is a real bomb lol especially with the sudden directional changes with almost no telegraphing.

I think T05 kinda sucks (I never liked it) and D05 is flat out superior to it.