Dimitrij Ovtcharov The New World Number 1!

[jawien]

Another thing. For me it sounds very ridiculous that it could be too much for a professional athlete to compete in eight major events a year.

True, but the thing is the system is far too sensitive to the lack of participation even in one tournament [Edit - considering the 8 tournament count. Not within a year]. Winning 6 Majors in a year! Man ... such achievement - sign of a true champion - should be rewarded. Don't you think?

Besides the schedule might become important too.

 

[NextLevel]

True, but the thing is the system is far too sensitive to the lack of participation even in one tournament. Winning 6 Majors in a year! Man ... such achievement - sign of a true champion - should be rewarded. Don't you think?

Besides the schedule might become important too.

And participate in one or two more events and that will close that chapter very quickly.

But people forget when ZJK Was #4 for an extended period of time despite failing the eye test. But because Dima is approximately one or two positions above where he should be by the old system, the world is on fire.

Ding Ning and Liu Shiwen hardly played this year and other than inactivity, remained in top 3
5. Seriously dude? Why would you play if you can do that? And we can't forget Boll... Who despite failing the eye test for most of 2016 kept his ranking. Maybe the fact that the new ranking was coming made him fix his health and play more?

My guess is that they just wanted to force players to play. I am not sure whether the new system is perfect, but I am a believer that anyone can maintain a ranking system that predicts player strength in their basement using a modern computer and that it is better for the ITTF to have a system that encourages players to play to keep their rankings. They are trying to follow tennis and badminton. Let us take time to see whether it works.

 

[jawien]

And participate in one or two more events and that will close that chapter very quickly.
[...]
Ding Ning and Liu Shiwen hardly played this year and other than inactivity, remained in top 3
5. Seriously dude? Why would you play if you can do that? And we can't forget Boll...
[...]
My guess is that they just wanted to force players to play.

Just checked, there should be like 13 World Tour events 2018 (6 Platinium) + Cup + WTTC ... hmm well maybe there will be enough events to participate .. I might agree ... time will show.

I'm not defending the old system, but it rather reflected to overall level of each player. Should it be changed - yes.

Still considering imaginary league consisting of 8 tournaments, and Ma winning 6 of them (not even participating in the last two) and still being 2nd ... I don't know.

 

[NextLevel]

Just checked, there should be like 13 World Tour events 2018 (6 Platinium) + Cup + WTTC ... hmm well maybe there will be enough events to participate .. I might agree ... time will show.

I'm not defending the old system, but it rather reflected to overall level of each player. Should it be changed - yes.

Still considering imaginary league consisting of 8 tournaments, and Ma winning 6 of them (not even participating in the last two) and still being 2nd ... I don't know.

I think there is another subtle reason why the ITTF is doing this. Let's say you go to a sponsor and say that the #1 player will be there. You want it to be a player who is playing in events not a player who is on the bench injured.

 

[yoass]

is YOASS is THOMAS WEIKERT in disguise??? just kidding

No, sorry. I'm much closer to Jean-Mi Saive, as far as these things go, but I'm no Jean-Mi either. Sniff.

 

[Brs]

Look this is exactly like tennis, as NL has pointed out. Part of being #1 is showing up to play. 8 events a year doesn't seem like too much to ask. Still in WTA both Williamses reduced their tournament schedules to stay healthy, and lesser players got to be ranked above them. Their choice, not sure why anyone else needs to get all wound up about it.

Would you prefer a system with just 1 event that accounts for all the rating points of the year? Because that's where you get to following Tony's logic to it's conclusion.

 

[jawien]

I think there is another subtle reason why the ITTF is doing this. Let's say you go to a sponsor and say that the #1 player will be there. You want it to be a player who is playing in events not a player who is on the bench injured.

Yeah, yeah ... apart from that, my critique was probably unjust. Sorry Ittf : ) You have to consider the overall number of tournaments and if we say that Ma Long have points only for 6 ... than it means he didn't participate in the other 9 tournaments ... this is a lot, like for the most of the year.

Yeap, Tony's calculations are still true but you have to consider the overall number of tournaments within the year.

J.

 

[thematrix]

Backhand GOD to me xD

 

[rainneverever]

zoomtt has compared the old and new ranking system when the new rule was first announced in March in the ability of correct prediction of a match result - higher ranked player beat lower ranked player. The old system got 76% prediction right while the new system got 67% right.
https://zoomtt.com/2017/03/31/new-wr-big-changes-bigger-challenges/

However, there were further changes of the new rule in Oct, such as points for Olympic Games good for 1 year instead of 4 years, winner of World Tour Plat 2250 instead of 2100 (OG, WTTC winner 3000 remain the same), winner of World Tour regular 1800 instead of 1350.
First edition of ranking points table
https://tabletennis523.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/ittf_world_ranking_description_2018.pdf
Final edition of ranking points table
https://d3mjm6zw6cr45s.cloudfront.net/2016/07/ITTF-World-Ranking-description-2018-final.pdf

Someone said the top players should play in more ITTF tour events which sounds reasonable. But you can take a further look at 2017 world tour participation summary, out of 418 players 0 players played 11 events out of 12 in 2017, 3 played 10 events, 4 played 9 events, 8 players played 8 events. Among them only 3 Japanese players are top 20. And they used to participate a lot. You can count how many played 7 events, 6 events, 5 events (Grand Finals eligibility) and so on.
https://d3mjm6zw6cr45s.cloudfront.net/2017/02/wt-mens-singles-standings-aft-swe.pdf

It sounds plausible for players to attend a few more as they can already play 5-6 tour events a year now. But keep in mind there are only 6 plat and 6 regular World Tour a year and for each tournament there are an upper limit of participants (usually no more than 300 and the higher ranked ones enter first). If higher top ranked players decide to play a tour no matter plat or not, lower ranked players would hardly have chance to enter to play. Fewer players are able to play at all and fewer players to achieve good results, is it a good thing or bad thing for TT? The differences between a regular tour and plat tour are prize money and the average level of participants. If all 200 of top 200 players play in a regular tour, why it should be regular instead of plat?

 

[rainneverever]

Take a look at World Ranking points, World Tour Standing points and prize money, you will see the inconsistence.
https://d3mjm6zw6cr45s.cloudfront.net/2017/10/2017_WT_Points_Allocation.pdf
https://d3mjm6zw6cr45s.cloudfront.net/2017/10/2017_WT_PrizeMoney.pdf

World Ranking points for World Tour
Plat 2250/2025/1800/1575/1350/1125
Regular 1800/1620/1440/1260/1080/900

World Tour standing points
Plat 500/300/200/100/50/25
Regular 250/125/63/31/16/8

Prize money for World Tour
Plat 25000/12600/6600/3600/1800/900 for Qatar/Japan/China, 48000/24000/11000/6100/3400/2150 for Australia, 24000/12000/6100/3200/1700/900 for Austria/German
Regular 15000/7600/3500/1800/900/500 for Hungary, 18000/9000/4500/2200/1100/700 for India, 18500/9400/4400/2200/1100/700 for Korea, 17000/8000/4200/2100/1050/600 for Czech, 16000/7800/3800/1900/1000/500 for Bulgaria/Sweden

What you see here, the standing points and prize money almost double if you can go one round further. But not the case for new World Ranking points.

Also take a look at the Grand Finals and World Cup
https://d3mjm6zw6cr45s.cloudfront.net/2017/10/2017_MWC_Prospectus_FINAL.pdf

World Ranking points for Grand Finals
2550/2295/2040/1785/1530
World Ranking points for World Cup
2550/2295/2040(3rd) 1913(4th)/1785/1530/1275(17th-20th)

Prize money for Grand Finals
100000/55000/35000/25000/15000
Prize money for World Cup
45000/25000/15000/10000/6000/3250/1250

Again, you get 1.4~1.8 times more prize money if you can proceed one round further, but not as many as ranking points.

 

[jawien]

[...] out of 418 players 0 players played 11 events out of 12 in 2017, 3 played 10 events, 4 played 9 events, 8 players played 8 events. Among them only 3 Japanese players are top 20. And they used to participate a lot. You can count how many played 7 events, 6 events, 5 events (Grand Finals eligibility) and so on. [...]

If this is the real participation ability of players then, maybe I apologized too fast ... ; )

"8 players played 8 events". Well I hope ittf knows what is doing and the calendar allows actually to have a meaningful ranking.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

If this is the real participation ability of players then, maybe I apologized too fast ... ; )

"8 players played 8 events". Well I hope ittf knows what is doing and the calendar allows actually to have a meaningful ranking.

A few of my friends are on the world tour, heck I even know 2 that went to the grand finals
Unfortunately playing 8 events is really difficult

Other than calendar clash, it is also the travel time/recovery time, funding/budget

The things is ITTF is trying be like Tennis, but TT players rely on domestic competition for income. Tennis rely on international competition for income.

International income in TT is peanuts - as it costs a handful just to be there.
I know few players that spend more than gain just for being at world tours (ticket/hotel for 1 player, 1 coach, 1 physio, and get 3000 dollar in return for making QF?? lol)

Yes, these are professionals, and they playing careers is limited to say 15 to 20 years.
They need to make more money than another other career (other than sports) and they need to be playing in events that makes them money
These guys are not charity members and give fans a good show for free (world tour is a freebie in return for ranking points, in return for seeding)

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Tony keeps on giving these examples where ma long has six events or seven events but not 8. He can't produce one where Ma Long has 8 and the system fails. I wonder why...

The system is not perfect and it might even fail on all fronts but it is better to try than to not do anything. And the fact that a player who was #3 under the old system is #1 under the new system is not the end of the world but some people just see issues all the time with anything the ITTF tries. I agree that there should be a bigger reward for winning, but the ITF also rates all the events not just a max number.

Because CNT Mens Team only budget on 6 events in 2017

 

[NextLevel]

Because CNT Mens Team only budget on 6 events in 2017

National teams are not the only ones who sponsor players - clubs, equipment manufacturers and private sponsors also sponsor players. Or to play for CNT, you can only play on CNT budget?

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Lets say we take someone that gets SF in 8 events:

Qatar: 6600USD
Japan: 6600USD
China: 6600USD
Aus: 11000USD
Austria: 6100USD
Germany:6100USD
India: 4200USD
Korea: 4400USD

These are the top 8 SF prize money: Total 51600USD

If each event you budget airticket for 2 people: 1000USD per ticket x 2 x 8 = 16000USD
accreditation fee for player and coach about 180USD each x 2 x 8 = 2880USD
Accommodation (aiming at 5 nights) about 200USD (double room per person sharing) x 2 x 5 x 8 = USD16000
Lets say there is no other costs, so total here is 34880 USD or 68% of the prize money.
I'm not even going to talk about TAX.....

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

National teams are not the only ones who sponsor players - clubs, equipment manufacturers and private sponsors also sponsor players. Or to play for CNT, you can only play on CNT budget?

let me rephrase
CNT only chose to go to 6 tours
Now if CNT decides 6, the players can't go to a 7th

And back on budget - look at my calculation on how SF players can't even break even
My friends tell me international is only for seeding/ranking points, else they loose lots of money when playing world tour, they rather play clubs
I'm not making these up

If I have a kid that is good in TT, do you tell them to chase fame or chase finance, as they would need to look after they children one day.
Other than your few Chinese super stars - how many pros are well off?
other than your 1 per top country that can get endorsements - how many are well off?

 

[NextLevel]

Lets say we take someone that gets SF in 8 events:

Qatar: 6600USD
Japan: 6600USD
China: 6600USD
Aus: 11000USD
Austria: 6100USD
Germany:6100USD
India: 4200USD
Korea: 4400USD

These are the top 8 SF prize money: Total 51600USD

If each event you budget airticket for 2 people: 1000USD per ticket x 2 x 8 = 16000USD
accreditation fee for player and coach about 180USD each x 2 x 8 = 2880USD
Accommodation (aiming at 4 nights) about 200USD (double room per person sharing) x 2 x 4 x 8 = USD12800
Lets say there is no other costs, so total here is 31680 USD or 61% of the prize money.
I'm not even going to talk about TAX.....

LEt's say I want to get more money for a tour event. I go to a sponsor. The sponsor says they will pay me more money if I can guarantee that top players are going to play at least 9 out of 10. The sponsor wants to see the ranking list. I tell him that I cannot guarantee that Zhang Jike and Timo Boll will play because they have do other things. The sponsor then doesn't want to raise the money for my event. What are my options?

Someone wrote this post on mytt. How do you respond:

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/foru...tle=impact-of-new-ittf-ranking-system#1009148

Remember the fiasco at the Asia OlympicQualification for Rio?

The ITTF took the fans opinions to heart and forced all topplayers to take part - no exceptions. They came up with a 2-stage format. Whathappened? China took advantage of a greyarea in the format and set such a "brilliant" example for the rest tofollow.

Those away from the action may not react as much, but thelocal fans in HK and those who traveled all the way from China were outraged.They bought tickets ahead of time(wasn't cheap, over US$120) for the 2nd-stagewhich fell on the weekend, expecting to see their idols only to learn they hadalready left for days.

Did you know how embarrassed the HKTTA was? Li Ching and KoLai Chak had to play clowns to entertain the few fans that stayed. Complaintsfrom fans who bought tickets made it on TV and the newspaper. At least one faneven went so far as to file a lawsuit against HKTTA and made his voice heard onthe hkttf.com.

All this wouldn't have happened if they had the NPL rankingsystem.

 

[NextLevel]

The above story also happened in the USA last year. Both LSW and Ding Ning pulled out of world Cup and they knew it wouldn't impact their rankings. In America we got to see Miu Hirano but a larger crowd wanted to see CNT players. Thank God they made it to Canada this year, but what is your way of handling this problem since it doesn't affect the rankings of the players who decide they want to do something else and fans like me get disappointed?

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Well, the problem of sponsors is not the players problem.
SF doesn't even break even, QF will make a huge lost.

Yes, my friends all have a monthly salary from sponsors
They get royalty from Butterfly for blade sold
They play in T2 and other Euro/Japanese clubs
But players are not charity people
ITTF must sort out prize money to get players there.
Forcing them with ranking imo won't make much differences - lets wait and see how many played more than 6 in 2018

 

[jawien]

SF doesn't even break even, QF will make a huge lost. [...]
lets wait and see how many played more than 6 in 2018

Yeah, lets wait for what will happens in 2018 before this discussion gets overheated ...

The power houses of tt like China, Japan, Germany and others will probably have those 8 events calculated into the calendar, since I guess the ranking is important for the seeding in WTTC, Olympics?

And Tony's great insight is that World Tours do not work like Tennis tournaments, Slams etc. Table Tennis is a different story, a regular player earns the money in a club, whereas in Tennis I guess is just the opposite.