Dimitrij Ovtcharov The New World Number 1!

[NextLevel]

Yeah, lets wait for what will happens in 2018 before this discussion gets overheated ...

The power houses of tt like China, Japan, Germany and others will probably have those 8 events calculated into the calendar, since I guess the ranking is important for the seeding in WTTC, Olympics?

And Tony's great insight is that World Tours do not work like Tennis tournaments, Slams etc. Table Tennis is a different story, a regular player earns the money in a club, whereas in Tennis I guess is just the opposite.

Yes but this ignores the fact that the same issues were in badminton as well until badminton also made its rankings more dynamic to support more player participation.

The other point is that sponsors do ask the things I ask when deciding how much they can give. It is easier to market or plan an event if you are sure the top players are coming or have a strong incentive to come.

It may not work but Tony is on record as believing that the ITTF cannot grow table tennis. He may be right but he has disqualified himself from positively evaluating any ITTF attempt to grow table tennis.

 

[jawien]

[...]
It is easier to market or plan an event if you are sure the top players are coming or have a strong incentive to come.

Yes, I agree. There might be a new dynamic introduced into the system and maybe the prizes will grow too. Who knows. We were looking from the perspective of the current participation in the tournaments.

[...]
It may not work but Tony is on record as believing that the ITTF cannot grow table tennis. He may be right but he has disqualified himself from positively evaluating any ITTF attempt to grow table tennis.

No no lets not get overheated. Tony was looking on the new system from the perspective of a single player. Without the support of sponsors, your domestic organization participating in the Tour does not make financial sense. Tony's calculations are showing that quite firmly.

Will the sponsors be willing to pay so much more money to let other players to come more often? Will see.

 

[drunix80]

Yes but this ignores the fact that the same issues were in badminton as well until badminton also made its rankings more dynamic to support more player participation.

The other point is that sponsors do ask the things I ask when deciding how much they can give. It is easier to market or plan an event if you are sure the top players are coming or have a strong incentive to come.

It may not work but Tony is on record as believing that the ITTF cannot grow table tennis. He may be right but he has disqualified himself from positively evaluating any ITTF attempt to grow table tennis.

Except for the fact badminton's prize money is far higher.

 

[jawien]

Except for the fact badminton's prize money is far higher.

Yes, this is the most upsetting to see. Why not to have like Grand Slams in Tennis? China, Japan, Germany + "one floating" + WTTC. Make some brand or something. I'd rather see Ma Long, Dima or Fan 5 times a year in a Great tournaments, than gazillion times playing in front of empty halls ...

 

[rainneverever]

http://www.ctta.cn/xhgg/qttz/2017/1214/163713.html
This is CTTA announcement last week on who will be sent to Hungary Open, 29 people.That's the way CNT wants to deal with the new rule, more players to play more events. For MS, there are FZD, WCQ, Liu Dingshuo, Xu Chenhao, Yu Ziyang, Xue Fei and on waiting list are Zheng Peifeng, Niu Guankai, Ma Te, Zhou Qihao, Yan Sheng, Song Xu, Sai Linwei.
However, all these players on waiting list will not be able to play as well as Xu Chenhao, because they do not have World ranking points (Dec ranking under new ranking system). WCQ and YuZiyang may not be able to play because they are ranked over 380+ in Dec under new ranking system (104 and 72 under current ranking system) and the entries limit is 290.
This is what I meant earlier, If higher ranked players want to play more tour, lower ranked players will not be able to play at all. This is common issue for developing young players, not limited to CNT. Sweden's Truls Moregard is ranked 166 under current system and 889 under new system this Dec. Most likely he will not be able to play any senior World Tour events in 2018. Under current system, new/young players can upset higher ranked players to accumulate ranking points quickly; under new system, firstly they do not have many chances to play. Secondly, they do not have bonus points beating higher ranked players.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

There are too many competitions in TT. they should do less competitions, and on the other hand, increase the prize money.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

It may not work but Tony is on record as believing that the ITTF cannot grow table tennis. He may be right but he has disqualified himself from positively evaluating any ITTF attempt to grow table tennis.

Of all the ITTF attempts to grow table tennis, how many have worked?
Should we start from 21 to 11 point change, or 38mm change?
and lets take out CTTA's influence (ITTF kindof forced CTTA to start Chinese table tennis college)

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Except for the fact badminton's prize money is far higher.

At the end of the day, other than your Chinese, Japanese and German, players wealth is a big problem
I am friends with a former internationals (ranked as high as top 20 before) and 20 years on today, they rely on coaching as income.
No funds left from playing days (not even enough for him to bond a house back then) - other than the reputation of being a good player - so can charge more per hour on coaching today.

Heck, I know few that became businessman and not perusing TT after playing, and the 13 old year son has never touch TT too.

Maybe being a TT pro (and surviving) needs to be something that ITTF and the likes of ITTF fanclubs (nextlevel) needs to consider. Or maybe fans don't care about what happen to players after they retire

Yeah, maybe I am a bit closer to these players than guys like nextlevel are, so I do have some personal emotions attached in viewing all these and I am happy to admit it.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

http://www.ctta.cn/xhgg/qttz/2017/1214/163713.html
This is CTTA announcement last week on who will be sent to Hungary Open, 29 people.That's the way CNT wants to deal with the new rule, more players to play more events. For MS, there are FZD, WCQ, Liu Dingshuo, Xu Chenhao, Yu Ziyang, Xue Fei and on waiting list are Zheng Peifeng, Niu Guankai, Ma Te, Zhou Qihao, Yan Sheng, Song Xu, Sai Linwei.
However, all these players on waiting list will not be able to play as well as Xu Chenhao, because they do not have World ranking points (Dec ranking under new ranking system). WCQ and YuZiyang may not be able to play because they are ranked over 380+ in Dec under new ranking system (104 and 72 under current ranking system) and the entries limit is 290.
This is what I meant earlier, If higher ranked players want to play more tour, lower ranked players will not be able to play at all. This is common issue for developing young players, not limited to CNT. Sweden's Truls Moregard is ranked 166 under current system and 889 under new system this Dec. Most likely he will not be able to play any senior World Tour events in 2018. Under current system, new/young players can upset higher ranked players to accumulate ranking points quickly; under new system, firstly they do not have many chances to play. Secondly, they do not have bonus points beating higher ranked players.

I learnt something from you
Didn't know of the 380+ issue

Now this is silly.
Before junior points/U21 are all the same points as senior level
New system, the points are calculate seperatly

So for Truls, how can he accumulate enough points to participate on senior level?

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Yes, this is the most upsetting to see. Why not to have like Grand Slams in Tennis? China, Japan, Germany + "one floating" + WTTC. Make some brand or something. I'd rather see Ma Long, Dima or Fan 5 times a year in a Great tournaments, than gazillion times playing in front of empty halls ...

I read some where before is that sponsors are not putting money down because of 1) empty halls 2)TT generally don't have TV coverage.

I guess you make a valid point - having your Ma Longs, Dimas and co doesn't equal to fulling up halls and host getting TV coverage (heck in fact ITTV some times locks certain region to view and half the time you see fans struggling to watch)

Taiwan has a very successful domestic TT culture in terms of sponsorship.
Imo this is the most successful of its kind in the world and it is kindof "private corporate" driven.

For example
Co-OP bank (My facebook photo profile is with Co-OP bank's head coach and top player Chuan Chih Yuan)
There is 5 coaches + 1 head coach
There is something like 30 players
There is something like 20 back up players

These people are on the bank's payroll
coaches/head coach needs to work x hours a day (just like any employee) in either office or table tennis hall (One of my friends there works 3 hours in the morning at the bank, and 4 hours afternoon with Taiwan's top cadets and juniors)

30 players - some current some former players
current players play full time on world tour/clubs etc
former players are still players or training partners
Same as coach - they need to commit to x hour a day to get the salary
Salary level is depending on how successful you are as a player - ie Chuan Chih Yuan being top 10 in the world gets a branch managers salary (until retirement as player - he can become coach/training partner and keep his salary)

20 back up players are mostly juniors/cadets who get funds on a monthly basis, of which it will increase with certain milestones, ie - QF final in WJTTC or SF final in WJTTC equals how much increase they get going forward

Co-OP is the biggest private funder in Taiwan

Cathay life currently have 3 coaches and 18 female players on its payroll (less players, but they have the best facility in Taiwan)
I'm afraid I signed a NDA with them, so I can't share too much

Then you get First bank team.
I had lunch with the 2 head coaches, but didn't really get too much info
I understand they work similar to Co-OP, just a smaller scale
Some successful players are like Liao Cheng Ting (U21 grand final winner 2016)

 

[rainneverever]

The #250 under new system in Dec has ~1600 points. Once a young/new player gets within #250, it is safe to get entered in senior World Tour. So the goal is to get 1600 points.
Truls can play senior Challenge event but still has to pray that the event is not filled with top 800 players. The winner gets 900 points. Or he can play continental events (winner 1050~1800) and team events that world ranking may not be a must for entering; however, will the coach be brave enough to let him play in Team World Cup (200 per win) or Team WTTC (250 per win)? He is not one of the best in Sweden and it is not fair to let him play certain continental events when entries per association are limited. So I don't know the best solutions for Truls and most likely he will just play U21 next year.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

The #250 under new system in Dec has ~1600 points. Once a young/new player gets within #250, it is safe to get entered in senior World Tour. So the goal is to get 1600 points.
Truls can play senior Challenge event but still has to pray that the event is not filled with top 800 players. The winner gets 900 points. Or he can play continental events (winner 1050~1800) and team events that world ranking may not be a must for entering; however, will the coach be brave enough to let him play in Team World Cup (200 per win) or Team WTTC (250 per win)? He is not one of the best in Sweden and it is not fair to let him play certain continental events when entries per association are limited. So I don't know the best solutions for Truls and most likely he will just play U21 next year.

But U21 points has no influence to senior points.....

So meaning his only method is to take part in many challenge series and get 1600+ points to take part in other world tour series....

 

[rainneverever]

Wait, there is a problem of the 1600 points goal. Say all higher ranked player keep playing World Tour intensively to maintain their ranking points and more young/new players get 1600 points by playing challenge series, then they may not be able to enter World Tour as there may be 30 players of 1600 points and 1600 points no longer #250...
So set the goal of 2000 points (#200) or even higher and pray everyday that higher ranked players will not attend the event you want to play.

But U21 points has no influence to senior points.....

So meaning his only method is to take part in many challenge series and get 1600+ points to take part in other world tour series....

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Wait, there is a problem of the 1600 points goal. Say all higher ranked player keep playing World Tour intensively to maintain their ranking points and more young/new players get 1600 points by playing challenge series, then they may not be able to enter World Tour as there may be 30 players of 1600 points and 1600 points no longer #250...
So set the goal of 2000 points (#200) or even higher and pray everyday that higher ranked players will not attend the event you want to play.

The more this thread goes on, the more silly the new system is

 

[Astorix]

One solution is, the events all have to get much bigger and longer

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

One solution is, the events all have to get much bigger and longer

I've seen events getting small and smaller (not wanting too many participant) due to costs

 

[jawien]

I read some where before is that sponsors are not putting money down because of 1) empty halls 2)TT generally don't have TV coverage.
I guess you make a valid point - having your Ma Longs, Dimas and co doesn't equal to fulling up halls [...]

Well usually they do attract some crowd, depends where the tournament is hosted : ) My point was (and it shows how many aspects of tt this new ranking touches) that in order to attract sponsors maybe it would be good to have some kind of brand created. Like tennis has those 4 Grand slams tournaments within the year. Why not to have like 3 or 4 major tournaments that everybody would be waiting for? Such events would have a bigger chance to make it to the tv or broader audience. But this is just as a side note.

[...] For example
Co-OP bank (My facebook photo profile is with Co-OP bank's head coach and top player Chuan Chih Yuan)

Thanks for sharing how tt functions in Taiwan, I guess some similar system is in the Japan from what I heard. In Poland it was the case before the '89, when the economy was centralized (govern by the state). Now it is just a regular sponsorship of different companies.

I talked recently to the Women's first league team sponsor. Even on this level the sponsor said frankly that he is doing this not because of the advertising, but the sentiment he has for the sport. The guy owning the company was a player before. So yeah, tt although very popular among people to play, really has a problem to be a professional sport with big publicity.

 

[NextLevel]

Well usually they do attract some crowd, depends where the tournament is hosted : ) My point was (and it shows how many aspects of tt this new ranking touches) that in order to attract sponsors maybe it would be good to have some kind of brand created. Like tennis has those 4 Grand slams tournaments within the year. Why not to have like 3 or 4 major tournaments that everybody would be waiting for? Such events would have a bigger chance to make it to the tv or broader audience. But this is just as a side note.



Thanks for sharing how tt functions in Taiwan, I guess some similar system is in the Japan from what I heard. In Poland it was the case before the '89, when the economy was centralized (govern by the state). Now it is just a regular sponsorship of different companies.

I talked recently to the Women's first league team sponsor. Even on this level the sponsor said frankly that he is doing this not because of the advertising, but the sentiment he has for the sport. The guy owning the company was a player before. So yeah, tt although very popular among people to play, really has a problem to be a professional sport with big publicity.

TT is a popular sport with nerds and nerds are some of the richest people in the world. There is frankly no good reason it should be doing better from a financial sustenance view. IT just needs the right approach to be found.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Well usually they do attract some crowd, depends where the tournament is hosted : ) My point was (and it shows how many aspects of tt this new ranking touches) that in order to attract sponsors maybe it would be good to have some kind of brand created. Like tennis has those 4 Grand slams tournaments within the year. Why not to have like 3 or 4 major tournaments that everybody would be waiting for? Such events would have a bigger chance to make it to the tv or broader audience. But this is just as a side note.



Thanks for sharing how tt functions in Taiwan, I guess some similar system is in the Japan from what I heard. In Poland it was the case before the '89, when the economy was centralized (govern by the state). Now it is just a regular sponsorship of different companies.

I talked recently to the Women's first league team sponsor. Even on this level the sponsor said frankly that he is doing this not because of the advertising, but the sentiment he has for the sport. The guy owning the company was a player before. So yeah, tt although very popular among people to play, really has a problem to be a professional sport with big publicity.

Cathay Group chairman is fond of TT, so that is why about 10 years ago he founded the Cathay life table tennis team
Some of the top players include Chen Szu Yu.
If there is another chairman who likes other sports, I doubt they would ever have a TT team
heck, all 18 players get paid to play, and accommodation, education is provided - this is more complete than your top sports schools in China. The pay for a junior WJTTC player for example isn't bad either

Sadly you don't really have any rich people in many countries that funds TT
talk USA for example, all the big hype of Gates and Buffett, but not much really occurred from that other than just a match or two

Another rich Taiwanese businessman - Terry Guo, chairman of foxconn has been sponsoring Chuang Chih Yuan's training centre - Chih Yuan Table Tennis Centre a good amount per year for 10 years

But how about USA? How about UK
How about other Euro countries?
There isn't a lot of money, so if competition price money is not there, then the future doesn't look good

 

[Atas Newton]

Yes, this is the most upsetting to see. Why not to have like Grand Slams in Tennis? China, Japan, Germany + "one floating" + WTTC. Make some brand or something. I'd rather see Ma Long, Dima or Fan 5 times a year in a Great tournaments, than gazillion times playing in front of empty halls ...

this is the biggest issue for me. Ding Ning won the World Championship and Liu Shiwen nearly became a record 5 times World Cup champion only for people to say they "hardly played" the whole year. Yes, they didn't come to many foreign "Opens" because, frankly, who cares about the smaller tournaments. The hype is alive for a week or two then everyone moves on, whereas the Major winners make history.