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Yes. Very spin oriented style. It's pretty much how I understand the game and it is good that one can play at a decent level with that technique.
European Games 2023
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Felix beat him, but Freitas displayed a different level going back maybe 8 years at this tournament. He beat Pucar, Karlsson, Jorgic and Alexis. His winning the final would just have completed the display of form. Would have said little about Alexis and Felix though I do think Alexis just was worn down by Freitas in the semis and lost large leads he should have converted at 2‐1 and 2‐2 and even had his chances down 2‐3.
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Perhaps Blahness read the Butterfly Report https://butterflyonline.com/european-games-krakow-freitas-and-szocs-claim-titles
"European Games Krakow: Freitas and Szocs Claim Titles
June 27, 2023(By Steve Hopkins)
The European Games Singles Champions were crowned today at the European Games in Krakow, Poland. Marcos Freitas defeated Felix Lebrun 4-2 to claim the title. For Freitas, it was an almost perfect tournament beginning with a 4-2 win over Tomislav Pucar, and then an upset over Kristian Karlsson, and then an upset over Darko Jorgic before defeating Alexis Lebrun in the Semifinals and his brother, Felix Lebrun in the Final. "
Maybe the reporter left the match when it was match point to Freitas, thinking it was all over...
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Yes I read this....Perhaps Blahness read the Butterfly Report https://butterflyonline.com/european-games-krakow-freitas-and-szocs-claim-titles
"European Games Krakow: Freitas and Szocs Claim Titles
June 27, 2023
(By Steve Hopkins)
The European Games Singles Champions were crowned today at the European Games in Krakow, Poland. Marcos Freitas defeated Felix Lebrun 4-2 to claim the title. For Freitas, it was an almost perfect tournament beginning with a 4-2 win over Tomislav Pucar, and then an upset over Kristian Karlsson, and then an upset over Darko Jorgic before defeating Alexis Lebrun in the Semifinals and his brother, Felix Lebrun in the Final. "
Maybe the reporter left the match when it was match point to Freitas, thinking it was all over...
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NL, can you share this video in particular? I wanna watch Bernie's looping where you specifically mentioned this trait presence.
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Therr was no point at which the match cound have been 4-2 unless I missed something... Freitas never had match point and a 9‐7 lead in the 7th is the closest he got. I think the journalist probably confused the brothers somehow lol.Perhaps Blahness read the Butterfly Report https://butterflyonline.com/european-games-krakow-freitas-and-szocs-claim-titles
"European Games Krakow: Freitas and Szocs Claim Titles
June 27, 2023
(By Steve Hopkins)
The European Games Singles Champions were crowned today at the European Games in Krakow, Poland. Marcos Freitas defeated Felix Lebrun 4-2 to claim the title. For Freitas, it was an almost perfect tournament beginning with a 4-2 win over Tomislav Pucar, and then an upset over Kristian Karlsson, and then an upset over Darko Jorgic before defeating Alexis Lebrun in the Semifinals and his brother, Felix Lebrun in the Final. "
Maybe the reporter left the match when it was match point to Freitas, thinking it was all over...
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I have poster a few on the past. She is very much into following the shape of the ball on her strokes.
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Lol 😂 Butterfly joining the fake news crowd!
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Never overestimate the ability of human interpretation.
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@latej, these were the kinds of things I used to take seriously from brokenball when I was a beginner. It was when I really developed my understanding of technique that I realized how stupid they were - even if somehow they were correct physics (and they are at best oversimplified), they are horrible pedagogy in table tennis.Never overestimate the ability of human interpretation.
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They are technically correct, and imho, it doesn't harm at all to be aware of it. Just like a piece of a puzzle. Of course if presented as the whole puzzle, or without acknowledging the other pieces, it's contraproductive. Especially if indicated, that if you are not aware, then you are stupid ;-) Then it gets funny.
But they still have value for me, for example the 2nd one. I may tend to have a slightly longer follow-through. It may indicate that I actually don't hit at the optimal moment of zero acceleration and max speed. And it can get you thinking, what to do, what to try - e.g. go lower, do the same mechanics, but then you may hit the ball a bit later in the stroke - things like that. You know - so removing this piece of puzzle is contraproductive too.
At some point, it helps if someone understands both. I remember my karate teacher, who was only couple of years older actually. But he was good, and he understood also WHY the technique works, and was able to present it. And actually exactly these things - or even as taken as an approach when seen on him - helps. The same hip mechanics which make oi-tsuki or gjaku-tsuki work is the one applied on FH loop. Telling this to some people may help them...
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I am pretty sure they are not technically correct(a stroke is continuous, not discrete so what happens at contact is impacted by both before and after) and what you are getting at can be expressed better by looking at efficiency but at least you are a good player so you can discuss and analyze it in the context of your technique. And someone who is not a good player might never appreciate the danger of the instruction. And someone who had never built a good player will never understand why no good player teaches like this and why just about every good player talks about the follow through as influencing the ball quality somehow. Of course the engineers know that whatever happens in the follow through didn't start at the contact or after. But the teacher just wants the stroke to work. And the engineer should be getting thr stroke to work first and explain why even if wrong an idea can be helpful. No one gives a damn about engineering in TT if it can't be used to improve your TT.
But my main point- one needs to play at a level when one understands the limits of his instruction. Otherwise one thinks he is smart when he is saying stupid things.
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No doubt about that, if you speak about couch - pupil relationship. Noone does that. And masters like mine are rare, too.
However, here in TTD, we are not in that relationship. I'd argue, that most of us here somehow took already their own resposibility for development, and already go in here with this mindset, and are able to extract some value. Just by definition - we are reading/writing here, not playing...
About this "WHY" mentality - I know it is not very common, and it's not for everyone, and it is hard to estimate it's overall value. But just yesterday I got asked about FH technique while playing, and we got into lengthier discussions about "WHY/how it works" - pretty rare, but it does happen, and may have value.
So, now we've hijacked another thread. Pls help.
EDIT: Taking back. It's your own thread, you can't hijack your own thread ;-) ... and thank you for not check-mating me so far by asking how often I used the words "speed", "acceleration", "time of contact" in that discussion yesterday ;-)
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It's "my" thread if the OP has a say, but as I tell people, if you care about the original topic, you can always discuss it
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To your original point: the WHY mentality is normal for adult learners, because they are now at an age where they think in terms of reasoning. It is no longer just copy the people around you or accept the experts. Language does this to most people. And it is good to have answers that help people build good learning theories. Because good stories can help or hurt learning. For children, they just pick things up like sponges, no one really cares.
As for taking responsibility for your development, remember when I said that the person who learned TT naturally, just like the person who has private security, will be the first person who says there is no need for police. "Responsibility" is an interesting word, everyone does it alone (take responsibility) but no one does it alone (the environment must always enable). I am just asking that you not only think about what it takes to succeed in the environment you currently play in, but to think about what happens to people who are in other environments as adult learners. If you have good players around you, it is easy to find the internet a side show. But if you are mostly not around good players and you want a realistic understanding of table tennis and you come to a website like this one, based on what you are saying, there is no difference if you get comment from archosaurus and brokenball vs if you learn from NDH and BRS. This I completely disagree with. I agree that most development is at home for sure. But I think that there are many people who abuse the fact that no one can see them play and use it to make comments that people who saw them play would never take seriously. So the thread Carl created gives a good option, an option you may not agree with, but an option that has value because everyone can do it the other way you prefer already.
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Yes, having players better than me around me is a massive luxury.
It is good to a have a voice like you, who puts things into perspective, and protects certain order and values. Extremely good!
But if I can choose between:
- having such voice around me which protects me
- protecting myself
Then I choose the later. I am only trying to promote this view. To put more relative importance to the second than to the first, while still seeing the necessity and great importance of the first. Why? Look around, if it doesn't come out from inside from each of us (and majority is like under drugs) we will be slaves. Here, this just TTD. If we are not able to cope with that, what is the chance of coping with corrupt govs. I wish someone could make me not see it this way. There is no disagreement between us. The only disproportion may be in the levels of depression.
archosaurus made my day...
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The beauty of this case is that we don't have to choose between them - we can have both. That is what wealth and resources make possible.
In reality, when choices have to be made, things are definitely more complicated, but what I will point out is that a lot of these things are worked out through leadership hierarchies and almost never the laissez faire systems that most people who defend laissez faire usually defend (and then complain when corruption dominates even in a laissez faire system). But this is too far off topic for this thread. It is just my way of saying there is no way to avoid the importance and impact of leadership and vision.
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Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
On that, one study from Taiwan (on FH and BH fast loop at maximum effort close to the table among 6 div A collegiate players in 2011) and a series of studies from China (on FH fast loop from mid-far distance among 11 national level players in 2016 and its BH counterpart in 2018, 2018, and 2019) have actually found that the players do hit at nearly the maximum velocity upon contact AND accelerate through the contact, consistently.
How is that possible? It turns out that, instead of the resultant racket velocity (which is what many studies focus on), you have to look one step further at its 3 directional components - forward, upward, and lateral, as postulated by another study from Poland in 2018. What actually happens is that the players' stroke reaches the maximum velocity first in the forward direction moments before contact, and then accelerates through the contact in the upward direction. To be more precise, the curves of the forward, upward and lateral velocities are out of phase, reaching the peaks at different times. The prominent argument on reaction time is therefore irrelevant as the swing is moving in 3 directions simultaneously yet separately.
The findings in those studies support the notion of "hit first and then brush", that is, wrap around the ball.
桌球正、反拍拉球動作之生物力學分析_黃信學
Fig. 4-1-1 Time of maximum resultant velocity of racket after contact
Legend
FH/BH: left/right bar
Left to right: topspin diagonal, topspin parallel, backspin diagonal, backspin parallel
https://i.imgur.com/Fr06PBv.png
Fig. 4-1-2 Time of maximum forward velocity of racket before contact
https://i.imgur.com/Vq99cfv.png
乒乓球正手中远台拉冲技术的生物力学特征分析_蒋津君
https://i.imgur.com/K2Pf6o1.png
Fig. 9 Resultant velocities and their 3 velocity components for shoulder, elbow, wrist, and racket markers for FH
Legend
a1/-2/-3: end of backswing
b1/-2/-3: impact
c1/-2/-3: end of follow-through
d1/-2/-3: recovery
Top part
Top right corner from top to bottom: racket, wrist, elbow, shoulder
Bottom part
Top right corner from top to bottom: racket-lateral, racket-forward, racket-upward
https://i.imgur.com/hE3JSjB.png
乒乓球反手中远台拉冲技术核心环节的运动学特征分析_蒋津君
Fig. 5 and 6 Resultant velocities and their 3 velocity components for shoulder, racket, elbow, and wrist markers for BH
Legend
Shoulder (blue), racket (red), elbow (green), and wrist (purple)
Racket X lateral (blue), racket Y forward (red), racket Z upward (green)
https://i.imgur.com/s3rnAhG.png
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You are just confusing the issue.
This doesn't make sense. If violates simple calculus. If one reaches "maximum velocity" and then accelerates some more, then the previous "maximum velocity" was not the maximum velocity.
This is non-sense. I would like you to explain this in detail how it is done.
This is a challenge.
Do you know how to calculate the resultant velocity after contact? On mytt you failed miserably because you only used the conservation of momentum and not the COR.
I am an expert at motion control. I am even a moderator on a Chinese servo control forum.
Now who are you? Who are your sources? How much motion control have you done in China?
Stop making stuff up. Stop talking about something you really don't understand. It is clear you don't understand calculus.
It is clear one can become very good at anything with lots of practice. The problem is that it takes a lot of trial and error. In engineering, trial and error is expensive and sometimes fatal. A good engineer will know how to optimize things and know what the goal is. The trick is to achieve the goal.
So it isn't about why. It is about the goal. If you know how it should be done, then the amount if trial and error or practice can be minimized. In other words, one can learn faster if they know what to learn.
So getting back to statements above. I would NEVER teach anybody to "wrap" the ball.
All those people that think "wrapping" the ball is good are ignorant fools and misleading other people.
I think I will start a new thread about "wrapping" the ball.
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