How Did I Win or Lose a Match?

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Wrighty67,

Watching your match with Tony, I think your wrist flexibility is better than I gave you credit for and I think you let Richard's style get to your head. People who play powerful shots can only do them against a certain kind of ball quality without putting themselves out of position so you need to construct the point very carefully and deliberately, usually with a short ball to the forehand side to move them out the position and then play long to the backhand. If someone has strokes like Richard, you need to make the ball go long on your terms, not on theirs. You don't let them do their thing and your blocks have to be deliberate, often down the line.

For your wrists, the most important thing you need to change is to be able to gently turn your wrists and fingers in the shape of the ball. IT sometimes really comes from circular rotation of the upper arm. But you may do it with the hips as well. But it isn't much, you don't have to do it extremely.

In the video you just shared, you are using way too much upper arm - most of the other elements are fine for now. Always have your elbow as the lowest part of the stroke as much as possible - straighten and bend you elbow slightly. It will force you to backswing better and use other body parts. Usually, when people keep their elbow as the lowest part of the stroke and avoid swinging across the mid line of their body, the adaptations it forces to the forehand and the backhand are usually favorable. Then the rest is grip and finger work.

I will make some video for you later this week/month when I get chance. But the main thing is to watch what the guy says about spinning the ball early in the video and note how develops the feel for rotating his wrists. I know you are advanced so it is a bit tough to go back to those wrist basics. But they help a lot for developing ball feel with experimentation.

IF in the video you just shared, your practiced doing a windshield wiper motion with the wrist to give the ball heavy to topspin while keeping the elbow low, it would be much better for what you are trying to achieve. Let me see whether I can find the relevant video.
 
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Here is WRM TV - their over 60 series which unfortunately is not a playlist is extremely underrated. They have a backhand topspin video as well which makes me wonder whether it is really for over 60s. Notice how he uses his elbow snap and how he always keeps the elbow at the bottom of the stroke as much as possible.


Again, keep the elbow low. Snap the lower arm into the ball and salute but keep the elbow low as much a possible.

 
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Wrighty67,

Watching your match with Tony, I think your wrist flexibility is better than I gave you credit for and I think you let Richard's style get to your head. People who play powerful shots can only do them against a certain kind of ball quality without putting themselves out of position so you need to construct the point very carefully and deliberately, usually with a short ball to the forehand side to move them out the position and then play long to the backhand. If someone has strokes like Richard, you need to make the ball go long on your terms, not on theirs. You don't let them do their thing and your blocks have to be deliberate, often down the line.

For your wrists, the most important thing you need to change is to be able to gently turn your wrists and fingers in the shape of the ball. IT sometimes really comes from circular rotation of the upper arm. But you may do it with the hips as well. But it isn't much, you don't have to do it extremely.

In the video you just shared, you are using way too much upper arm - most of the other elements are fine for now. Always have your elbow as the lowest part of the stroke as much as possible - straighten and bend you elbow slightly. It will force you to backswing better and use other body parts. Usually, when people keep their elbow as the lowest part of the stroke and avoid swinging across the mid line of their body, the adaptations it forces to the forehand and the backhand are usually favorable. Then the rest is grip and finger work.

I will make some video for you later this week/month when I get chance. But the main thing is to watch what the guy says about spinning the ball early in the video and note how develops the feel for rotating his wrists. I know you are advanced so it is a bit tough to go back to those wrist basics. But they help a lot for developing ball feel with experimentation.

IF in the video you just shared, your practiced doing a windshield wiper motion with the wrist to give the ball heavy to topspin while keeping the elbow low, it would be much better for what you are trying to achieve. Let me see whether I can find the relevant video.
Thanks for the videos, I can see what they are both trying to achieve (in slightly different ways) - and I can see that the strokes are much more compact and focused around forearm and wrist (a bit like the BH loop which I guess by default has to be more compact and less shoulder focused)

I was trying to trigger the right movement in forearm by making sure I straightened the arm on the back swing which I find helpful in breaking the habit of everything being locked at an angle. I think the key for me is finding a way to trigger the forearm then wrist.

"Gently turn your fingers and wrist in the shape of the ball" - this is a concept I cannot see in my mind. When I watch the videos of any good FH they seem to keep the bat angle consistent throughout and including the impact and post impact but to do as you suggest seems to infer rolling over and around the ball and tracing it's shape in some way - is that what you mean?

With regards Richard - you are right, I find myself playing into his FH which is foolish so need to control the narrative better when I play him.

Thank you.
 
Hi NL

I did watch this when you first posted it and liked the approach, but need to rewatch it and see what practical steps I can take to work on that wrist and whip.

This weekend I spent some time on my FH trying to focus on whip and hips - does this look more like it or is it still miles off? I just want to know if this feeling is what I am looking for.

@Wrighty67

at a facility with more space, consider recording your FH from 5 o'clock i.e. several feet behind your right hip (to the right a bit), this angle clearly shows how you load both feet (right & left), hip/trunk rotation & their involvement, how you set your racket in the ready position ... til' follow-through

i am excited for your FH & your commitment encourages me

you'll know wrighty ... you'll know when you stroke that ball so effortlessly & 100% sure in your head that ball is landing on intended target

it feels soooooo sweet that you crave that feel again, and again ... (y)

i'll defer the technical details to others
 
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@Wrighty67

at a facility with more space, consider recording your FH from 5 o'clock i.e. several feet behind your right hip (to the right a bit), this angle clearly shows how you load both feet (right & left), hip/trunk rotation & their involvement, how you set your racket in the ready position ... til' follow-through

i am excited for your FH & your commitment encourages me

you'll know wrighty ... you'll know when you stroke that ball so effortlessly & 100% sure in your head that ball is landing on intended target

it feels soooooo sweet that you crave that feel again, and again ... (y)

i'll defer the technical details to others
I can do that at my club - watch this space!
 
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Thanks for the videos, I can see what they are both trying to achieve (in slightly different ways) - and I can see that the strokes are much more compact and focused around forearm and wrist (a bit like the BH loop which I guess by default has to be more compact and less shoulder focused)

I was trying to trigger the right movement in forearm by making sure I straightened the arm on the back swing which I find helpful in breaking the habit of everything being locked at an angle. I think the key for me is finding a way to trigger the forearm then wrist.

"Gently turn your fingers and wrist in the shape of the ball" - this is a concept I cannot see in my mind. When I watch the videos of any good FH they seem to keep the bat angle consistent throughout and including the impact and post impact but to do as you suggest seems to infer rolling over and around the ball and tracing it's shape in some way - is that what you mean?

With regards Richard - you are right, I find myself playing into his FH which is foolish so need to control the narrative better when I play him.

Thank you.
The use of the fingers/wrist varies from player to player and is often not visible the more you use the body as the whole stroke has to be stable. But when you are getting less from your legs, you get more from other body parts. the most important thing is to draw a curve with your stroke but how that curve works and to what degree it is visible is a function of many things including the fact that your body has circular joints. People like Timo Boll are clearly more deliberate in using the wrist. The speed and the degree of motion makes it invisible but none of them would tell you that they do not use the wrist if asked to describe their technique. Some of them might just say they push down with one forefinger on forehand and with thumb on backhand. Some might talk about keeping the fingers loose and then tightening the fingers at contact. Some supinate and pronate the lower arm so they have a turning motion throughout the stroke.


If you looked at this stroke (and I can find Lee SangSu to demonstrate the same or even Wang Liqin) - would you say he uses the wrist without the slow motion? Go to 2 mins 18 seconds in if you want the confirmation.

 
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Wrighty,

Try slowing down the FH vs Underspin vid to .25 speed, then look at a few things.

Look at how you are at impact and at finish of your FH stroke vs underspin. Look at the angle of your arm (lower to upper) and look at your elbow. Look at them both at before impact and at end of finish part of the stroke. Look how high the elbow finishes. Look how high much the arm goes above head and way past head.

Listen to the sound of impact and see if you are making slow heavy topspin when you want. Look at how far you finish past forehead... extra difficult to recover.

You will see that this kind of locked arm biomechanics using upper arm (with lower arm locked at 90 degrees to upper arm) (and mostly locked wrist) pivoting off the shoulder joint is what you are using to generate bat speed, which is powered by the muscles behind shoulder. This is not a very efficient model to make bat speed, spin, and speed... no matter how stacked your shoulders are.

The best one can do striking the ball like that is to get medium bat speed and a solid, non-grazing impact which makes a little pace, but not much spin.

Your FH shot vs underspin has next to zero use of lower arm snap. There is very little use of wrist snap. There is no use of fingers to whip the bat at the end. Trying to make pace and spin with just the upper arm powered by the muscles behind your shoulder is not very efficient or powerful or controllable.

One can produce a moderate amount of spin and pace doing it that way and that is it.

This is why your FH vs underspin does not carry heavy topspin at slow speed or fast pace with big spin.

If you are happy looping underspin like that and not pressuring opponents like you should or want, then great, you can be content with that. I see you are working hard to train and improve, so you may want to look at your biomechanics.

Wrighty Impact 1.jpg

Wrighty FH 1 Finish.jpg

Wrighty Impact 2.jpg

Wrighty FH 2 Finish.jpg
 
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Wrighty67 said:
The match vs Richard is always a tough one for me - he is a super offensive player and just batters everything. If I am not careful it feels like an assault, and I cannot get into the game to make my own attacks - which is what happened last night as you will see.
Hi Wrighty,

Richard likes three things, and you kept giving him all he wanted of it. He will finish points vs these three.
- High balls slow to his power zones
- Long balls light underspin to his power zones
- Topspin that is not heavy and bounces even a little high to his FH and BH power zones

Richard had two things going on where he did not kill you
- Medium or heavier underspin (he does not and cannot loop this very well) (he will miss or push it back)
- Underspin medium fast to his middle (he would try to attack, but not step around enough) (and miss)

So an easy to implement tactic vs Richard would be to keep your underspin returns low and at least medium heavy... and to target his middle with a push.

Targeting his middle is double good for you. He gives you gifts of free points, so you do not work hard. He may decline the attack and give you a light underspin to attack him wide.

You will see that he made so many shots into the net on your medium or heavy underspin serves. He does not handle medium or heavier underspin, even on non-attacking shots.
 
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Think of your wrists as whips (not as joints to be controlled, but as whips to be cracked.) They may not be flexible or have good range, but whipping them within the range of motion that one is comfortable without *injury* or *overuse* and to the degree that you can control the extra speed from the whip - is *always* a superior shot. On some level, you need to shake into the ball in all your high spin TT strokes. Easiest way to do this with stability is to lock the upper arm and let the elbow snap into the ball by keeping the elbow low. This will give your lower arm and wrist the cracking effect of a whip. Then make slight modifications to make your fingers/lower arm feel like they are shaping the ball ( so that you don't overshoot the table).
 
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Hi Wrighty,

Richard likes three things, and you kept giving him all he wanted of it. He will finish points vs these three.
- High balls slow to his power zones
- Long balls light underspin to his power zones
- Topspin that is not heavy and bounces even a little high to his FH and BH power zones

Richard had two things going on where he did not kill you
- Medium or heavier underspin (he does not and cannot loop this very well) (he will miss or push it back)
- Underspin medium fast to his middle (he would try to attack, but not step around enough) (and miss)

So an easy to implement tactic vs Richard would be to keep your underspin returns low and at least medium heavy... and to target his middle with a push.

Targeting his middle is double good for you. He gives you gifts of free points, so you do not work hard. He may decline the attack and give you a light underspin to attack him wide.

You will see that he made so many shots into the net on your medium or heavy underspin serves. He does not handle medium or heavier underspin, even on non-attacking shots.
If I give Richard the same balls that Wrighty gave him, Richard will beat me too. At a certain point, it is your responsibility to figure out that you can't let someone attack on his terms. It doesn't mean you will be successful, but you have to try something. You have to serve multiple serves and spins to various locations on the table to find something that will get them to back off or to give you the first attack. Wrighty really needs to learn how to serve short sidespin and attack behind it.
 
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Wrighty,

Try slowing down the FH vs Underspin vid to .25 speed, then look at a few things.

Look at how you are at impact and at finish of your FH stroke vs underspin. Look at the angle of your arm (lower to upper) and look at your elbow. Look at them both at before impact and at end of finish part of the stroke. Look how high the elbow finishes. Look how high much the arm goes above head and way past head.

Listen to the sound of impact and see if you are making slow heavy topspin when you want. Look at how far you finish past forehead... extra difficult to recover.

You will see that this kind of locked arm biomechanics using upper arm (with lower arm locked at 90 degrees to upper arm) (and mostly locked wrist) pivoting off the shoulder joint is what you are using to generate bat speed, which is powered by the muscles behind shoulder. This is not a very efficient model to make bat speed, spin, and speed... no matter how stacked your shoulders are.

The best one can do striking the ball like that is to get medium bat speed and a solid, non-grazing impact which makes a little pace, but not much spin.

Your FH shot vs underspin has next to zero use of lower arm snap. There is very little use of wrist snap. There is no use of fingers to whip the bat at the end. Trying to make pace and spin with just the upper arm powered by the muscles behind your shoulder is not very efficient or powerful or controllable.

One can produce a moderate amount of spin and pace doing it that way and that is it.

This is why your FH vs underspin does not carry heavy topspin at slow speed or fast pace with big spin.

If you are happy looping underspin like that and not pressuring opponents like you should or want, then great, you can be content with that. I see you are working hard to train and improve, so you may want to look at your biomechanics.

View attachment 24319

View attachment 24320

View attachment 24321

View attachment 24322
Thanks for the detail DE, I can 100% see what you are getting at and I think I can visualise the stroke mechanics we‘re after. The challenge is getting my body to do it. I’ll focus on that tomorrow at practice and work slowly to try and ensure I minimise upper arm and maximise forearm, wrist and fingers.
 
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If I give Richard the same balls that Wrighty gave him, Richard will beat me too. At a certain point, it is your responsibility to figure out that you can't let someone attack on his terms. It doesn't mean you will be successful, but you have to try something. You have to serve multiple serves and spins to various locations on the table to find something that will get them to back off or to give you the first attack. Wrighty really needs to learn how to serve short sidespin and attack behind it.
Agreed -I did feel like I was being beaten, knocked down and getting back up etc.

That having been said I did think I was serving him short(ish) side spin with pendulum and reverse pendulum.
 
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Think of your wrists as whips (not as joints to be controlled, but as whips to be cracked.) They may not be flexible or have good range, but whipping them within the range of motion that one is comfortable without *injury* or *overuse* and to the degree that you can control the extra speed from the whip - is *always* a superior shot. On some level, you need to shake into the ball in all your high spin TT strokes. Easiest way to do this with stability is to lock the upper arm and let the elbow snap into the ball by keeping the elbow low. This will give your lower arm and wrist the cracking effect of a whip. Then make slight modifications to make your fingers/lower arm feel like they are shaping the ball ( so that you don't overshoot the table).
This is an image I can work with, thanks.
 
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Agreed -I did feel like I was being beaten, knocked down and getting back up etc.

That having been said I did think I was serving him short(ish) side spin with pendulum and reverse pendulum.
So when your wrist usage improves a bit we will revisit this, but while the serve quality wasn't quite there, you did get him to not attack a few times, The real issue is that you pushed long many balls that you could have opened on, often into his forehand. Players who kill loose balls give you a responsibility to open with heavy spin, if they can counterloop your spin, then they are often just better players, nothing to be ashamed of there. I suspect if you learn to spin the ball heavy with the wrists rather than these slow oversuage of the upper arm, the ball quality will force more mistakes. And it will be easier for you to open on more balls too.
 
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So when your wrist usage improves a bit we will revisit this, but while the serve quality wasn't quite there, you did get him to not attack a few times, The real issue is that you pushed long many balls that you could have opened on, often into his forehand. Players who kill loose balls give you a responsibility to open with heavy spin, if they can counterloop your spin, then they are often just better players, nothing to be ashamed of there. I suspect if you learn to spin the ball heavy with the wrists rather than these slow oversuage of the upper arm, the ball quality will force more mistakes. And it will be easier for you to open on more balls too.
Got it - makes sense.
 
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Thanks for the detail DE, I can 100% see what you are getting at and I think I can visualise the stroke mechanics we‘re after. The challenge is getting my body to do it. I’ll focus on that tomorrow at practice and work slowly to try and ensure I minimise upper arm and maximise forearm, wrist and fingers.
When you can avoid using mostly upper arm, what NL is providing is REALLY going to increase the ease of spin production, which will become a great weapon for you vs your opponents in the vids.
 
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Next-Level said:
I suspect if you learn to spin the ball heavy with the wrists rather than these slow oversuage of the upper arm, the ball quality will force more mistakes. And it will be easier for you to open on more balls too.

I will be bold say something stronger than suspect, I believe it become a total game changer.
 
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If I give Richard the same balls that Wrighty gave him, Richard will beat me too. At a certain point, it is your responsibility to figure out that you can't let someone attack on his terms. It doesn't mean you will be successful, but you have to try something. You have to serve multiple serves and spins to various locations on the table to find something that will get them to back off or to give you the first attack. Wrighty really needs to learn how to serve short sidespin and attack behind it.
Yes NL,

You and I would be under self-inflicted undue pressure doing what Wrighty did. We both have the awareness of what is going on to discover what is happening quickly and find a way to manage it... and would quickly implement that to impose our will on him.

Heavier spin low anywhere and under to the middle would set us up all day long so we could flip that situation our way.
 
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