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Just watched the TTBL match:
How does the German League do it?
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Honestly it was more intense at the venues during the 80s and 90s (during the 70s probably, too, but I wasn't yet around then). Then it went "downhill" for a variety of reasons, although there are still places here and there (particularly in the south) where the atmosphere is still similar to what it used to be.
Short answer: Tradition.
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More Opportunity to play -> more recreational players -> more fans / audience
Of course it’s more complicated than that why a sport is popular or has audience, like main stream sports, commercials, broadcasting, cooperations, side-events, celebrities, other investments etc.
But core audience are other (recreational/hobby) players.
Of course it’s more complicated than that why a sport is popular or has audience, like main stream sports, commercials, broadcasting, cooperations, side-events, celebrities, other investments etc.
But core audience are other (recreational/hobby) players.
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Other clubs don't have a Boll and their atmosphere at home is better than Düsseldorf's...
That being said, Düsseldorf has been a top club for a few decades. They had very good players back then, too, and, as I mentioned, the atmosphere was more intense back then. Boll only plays a very minor role in the big picture (the one Next Level is asking for).
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Bad Königshofen has reached the playoff stage for the very first time, that probably adds to the enthusiasm of the home crowd.
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its a club culture
community gets together to support the local club.
players could be bought in, but the fans are still mostly local.
The same logic with soccer basically.
Germany has 10s of thousands of clubs, so it is no stranger than every table tennis player is part of some club.
But they would still come into the higher leagues to support "their" (second or third) team (above they own club, if it is in lower div only).
The way the club functions, involves family a lot.
ie, the mom's/wifes are also involved one way or another.
Over time, it becomes part of tradition/life
Whereas, comparison to USA for example - its like the men's outing only - no family.
In Asia, it is the same too, very little family or spouse. Mostly men.
Europe is the only one successful here.
South Africa follows European culture in a way. But to a much smaller scale.
Here is a club I support and the "moms" help with this during a "league night"
Still a lot needs to be done, but these things are common in many European/German clubs
I can't remember which club, I think it is a French - they even have a place to party/bar in the venue.
it's more than sports basically, its social too
I recall that video I saw was after a league night, all the players, fans stayed on for finger snacks at the bar
community gets together to support the local club.
players could be bought in, but the fans are still mostly local.
The same logic with soccer basically.
Germany has 10s of thousands of clubs, so it is no stranger than every table tennis player is part of some club.
But they would still come into the higher leagues to support "their" (second or third) team (above they own club, if it is in lower div only).
The way the club functions, involves family a lot.
ie, the mom's/wifes are also involved one way or another.
Over time, it becomes part of tradition/life
Whereas, comparison to USA for example - its like the men's outing only - no family.
In Asia, it is the same too, very little family or spouse. Mostly men.
Europe is the only one successful here.
South Africa follows European culture in a way. But to a much smaller scale.
Here is a club I support and the "moms" help with this during a "league night"
Still a lot needs to be done, but these things are common in many European/German clubs
I can't remember which club, I think it is a French - they even have a place to party/bar in the venue.
it's more than sports basically, its social too
I recall that video I saw was after a league night, all the players, fans stayed on for finger snacks at the bar
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Is it that a lot? I think the bundesliga has a few hundred spectators on average, Borussia is probably towards the higher end.
Found this.
Tischtennis Bundesliga - TTBL - Zuschauer
Alle Informationen und Hintergrundberichte zur besten Liga Europas.
www.ttbl.de
Düsseldorf averages around 1000 people but the lower Clubs only 200-400.
I do not quite understand how the bundesliga works financially. There is streaming but no TV deal for the bundesliga and a few hundred fans. I read players make like 50-150k per year depending on their status.
Is that profitable for the clubs?
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That's why most of the clubs, particularly the smaller ones like Bad Königshofen need a whole bunch a sponsors. Membership fees alone cannot pay for the salarys of these pro-players; and the virtuell non-existence of money made from tv/streaming deals adds to the (financial) difficulties.
Every TTBL needs (to buy) a licence, but they also have to show that they are financially able to get through a whole season.
Let's assume that the average TTBL team needs 500.000 € in order to get through the season (I do not know the real numbers, mind you!). I doubt that you'll get players like Ovtcharov, Källberg, Franziska (plus 2-3 other players for your team) for money like that. That wouldn't be enough. But perhaps decent players like Duda, Jha and the likes.
So, as an example, the top player makes 150.000 €, two others 100.000 € each and a development player (or a former top player close to retirement or whatever) gets 50.000 €. That makes 400.000 € salary for the players: the remaining 100.000 € are for: the salary of the coach (possibly also a fitness coach), travel expenses and (occasionally) smaller things like, i. e. equipment (tables, balls etc.). That's your budget. I find it unlikely that a "small" TTBL club makes profit that way. If it roughly evens out at zero at the and of the season/year, that should be satisfying...and then it starts all over again, because for these clubs it's vital to keep the sponsors on board and/or find new ones.
Since Bad Königshofen was mentioned here a few times, just take a look at their website. It's sort of representative for the average sports club in Germany (more on that later...). There is also a list of the sponsors:
That's 44 sponsors currently, if I counted correctly. There are 4-5 local banks, some car dealerships and a variety of other local companys (some smaller, some "Mittelstandsunternehmen" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mittelstand) as well I suppose). Now, if every one of them sponsors the club with 1000 € monthly on average, that makes 528.000 € a year, which barely covers your budget for your TTBL team, considering the numbers we're talking about.
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The manager from the 1. Bundesliga women's team in Weinheim said they have 100000€ for a year (or season, I would have to look it up) and he himself does the job for free just like the people helping out with catering. Berlin, the top club in the women's game, has double the budget he said. It wouldn't be possible without a ton of sponsors. You can see them on the website and there are a lot. I do watch every home match and most viewers are pretty old, not a lot of younger people. About 120 viewers for most matches and when Berlin comes it's around 300. A ticket costs 8€ or 50€ for the whole season including play-offs and 3. Bundesliga women and Regionalliga men.
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As I mentioned, Bad Königshofen is sort of representitive for an average sports club in Germany.
Clubs itself, and the culture associated with it, are deeply rooted within the german society. Whether they are sports clubs, stamp collector clubs, oldtimer clubs, local history clubs, old train clubs, Schützenvereine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schützenverein; http://www.schuetzenverein-niederaden.de/ ) etc.
In the US you have High School and Varsity sports (where you compete against each other and these schools oftentimes have their own long lasting traditions), that is basically non-existent in Germany. You do have psycical education at school and many colleges/universities have at least some sort of a sports club, but they are not really competing against each other; the college sports clubs are predominantly purely recreational.
If you want to do sports somewhat competetively, you need to become a member of a sports club.
Many of these clubs were founded in the 1800s (Bad Königshofen in 1861, same year as the main sports club in the town I grew up in; the oldest sports club In Germany was founded in 1814). Of course back then the "portfolio" of the available types of sports was very limited. Mostly only gymnastics and/or physical education was offered. Later other sports were added, such as soccer, volleyball, handball, tennis, weigthlifting, badminton, chess etc.
These clubs you can find all over Germany. There are some one-sport-clubs, but most of them are multisport-clubs. While you can find more clubs in bigger cities, sports clubs in particular, as well as "Schützenvereine" and voluntary fire departments play a key and vital role in peoples's every day life in smaller towns and more rural regions. If your parents are members of the local sports club, then you are very likely to become a member of that club as well. Many of these clubs have youth/junior departments and they pay attention to coaching the kids. But aside from all the sports, these clubs serve a social purpose, pretty much the way it is described here:
).
In other words: You simply grow up with it from an early age on and there is usually are very strong identification with the club, which also results in the atmosphere OP witnessed and admired(?) while watching Bad Königshofen vs. Düsseldorf. The members are proud of their club and the players need to be cheered on because they represent the club and the region; needless to say, most of the players are also role models for the kids in the club.
What also helps tt being a fairly popular sport in Germany is what is mentioned here:
Table tennis being kind of "omnipresent", because it is readily available in nearby places, and the strong club culture which is deeply rooted within the german society is imo the main "secret" NextLevel was asking about.
Clubs itself, and the culture associated with it, are deeply rooted within the german society. Whether they are sports clubs, stamp collector clubs, oldtimer clubs, local history clubs, old train clubs, Schützenvereine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schützenverein; http://www.schuetzenverein-niederaden.de/ ) etc.
In the US you have High School and Varsity sports (where you compete against each other and these schools oftentimes have their own long lasting traditions), that is basically non-existent in Germany. You do have psycical education at school and many colleges/universities have at least some sort of a sports club, but they are not really competing against each other; the college sports clubs are predominantly purely recreational.
If you want to do sports somewhat competetively, you need to become a member of a sports club.
Many of these clubs were founded in the 1800s (Bad Königshofen in 1861, same year as the main sports club in the town I grew up in; the oldest sports club In Germany was founded in 1814). Of course back then the "portfolio" of the available types of sports was very limited. Mostly only gymnastics and/or physical education was offered. Later other sports were added, such as soccer, volleyball, handball, tennis, weigthlifting, badminton, chess etc.
These clubs you can find all over Germany. There are some one-sport-clubs, but most of them are multisport-clubs. While you can find more clubs in bigger cities, sports clubs in particular, as well as "Schützenvereine" and voluntary fire departments play a key and vital role in peoples's every day life in smaller towns and more rural regions. If your parents are members of the local sports club, then you are very likely to become a member of that club as well. Many of these clubs have youth/junior departments and they pay attention to coaching the kids. But aside from all the sports, these clubs serve a social purpose, pretty much the way it is described here:
Oftentimes you would just meet up at the club house, play cards, drink and barbacue together, watching tv and so on and so forth (mainly so forth...
).In other words: You simply grow up with it from an early age on and there is usually are very strong identification with the club, which also results in the atmosphere OP witnessed and admired(?) while watching Bad Königshofen vs. Düsseldorf. The members are proud of their club and the players need to be cheered on because they represent the club and the region; needless to say, most of the players are also role models for the kids in the club.
What also helps tt being a fairly popular sport in Germany is what is mentioned here:
You will find stone tables in parks, school yards, lidos, playgrounds. Also, most youth clubs/centres have tt tables. The one in my home town had two and they were quite popular; even some younger adults in their 20s would sneak in in order to play. My old "middle school" had like 7 or 8 pretty usable tt tables in the auditorium and we would play tt during almost every school break.
Table tennis being kind of "omnipresent", because it is readily available in nearby places, and the strong club culture which is deeply rooted within the german society is imo the main "secret" NextLevel was asking about.
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Clubs get a substantial amount of money from the state.
This is used to pay pro players, club equipment, coaches, etc.
Sometimes members of the club don't even have to pay a fee to train or play lower leagues during weekends.
The sponsors I don't know how much money they get from them....probably not much if any at all.
The venues they use are also from the state so they don't pay for that. These venues are top quality and are used for all sports.
This is the big difference between strong EU leagues and other countries included USA and UK.
Sounds nice but I don't know how Americans would react if they take 42% of their salary in taxes like they do in Germany
I believe most tax payers would be pretty annoyed if they realized their taxes are paying Anton Kallberg, Timo Boll, Gionis Panagiotis, Felix Lebrun salaries (just to name a few popular players).
To put it bluntly, you are totally wrong with most of your statement. The German state or the federal states do not pay the professional players in the German Table Tennis League. Some German national players are employed by the Bundeswehr or perhaps the police and can play their sport there as professionals, but that has nothing to do with the majority of Bundesliga players.
You may be right that the cities provide training areas and halls for the clubs, but even that has nothing to do with the wage costs of the professionals.
The professionals are mainly financed by sponsors or table tennis equipment suppliers
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That's a lot of bullshyt at once. Not quite sure if you're trolling.
Sport clubs including their tt departments do not get money from the state. It's the opposite. While some clubs own their own playing venue (gym), the vast majority of the clubs rent a school gym from the city ot the county for their purposes. Many cities and counties in Germany are in need for money, so they won't give away their gyms for free and they do not throw money out of the window, so that clubs can hire some ping pong players and pay coaches. That's flat out ludicrous to assume.
Here is a little excerpt what a sports club has to pay for the use of the gym (https://www.lokalsportpreis.de/bild...ebuehren_muessen_Sportvereine_zahlen.docx.pdf). It's in german, but I google translated the relevant parts:
"The result: In 60 percent of the municipalities, user fees for sports facilities are an issue. In every third they have already been implemented in the city or municipality.
The reason is the same everywhere: the cash register is empty. ...
And it can also affect the sports clubs. In many places they are intended for use
municipal sports facilities pay fees. ... "The cities want to reduce their budget deficit. It is clear to us that the topic of sports facilities user fees come up in every municipality. ...
And the sports clubs? Some fear for their future.
Using just one third of the hall costs three euros an hour. Hans Heinrich
Lindner, honorary chairman of the Schwerte City Sports Association (SSV) and
Chairman of TV Jahn Rot-Weiß Schwerte does not generally oppose to a usage fee. But he calculates that his club now has to raise an additional amount of 239.25 euros per week– almost 10,000 euros per year. “This really hurts us. Without increases in contributions it would be a threat to our existence.”
Now, part of the membership fees (and fees for being allowed to play local and regional leagues) go to an umbrella association (for example the Bavarian Table Tennis Association) and they as well as the other tt associations finance the national tt association, DTTB. The state is not really involved in this. But clubs do get a bit of money back from the associations eventually in order to buy new equipment or give coaches a small compensation for their efforts to coach for instance. That's the case for pretty much all clubs.
Tax payers do not pay for the salaries of pro players. Sponsors mainly do it. If sponsors were indeed superfluous, as you suggest, the clubs that have pro or semi-pro teams could easily save themselves the hassle to contact sponsors in order to support them.
Essentially bullshyt - case closed. You are trolling.
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Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
Clubs in France do get government funding, mostly spent on the payroll of coaches.
Clubs in Germany can get government funding when needed, but are mostly on their own. As Yang Jianhua points out in the second article by Sina below, 15-minute interactive session between players and fans and catering after each match serve as the backbone of the close-knit community formed by the clubs, players and fans.
法国人玩乒乓：一年160欧随便玩儿 联赛多得数不清
http://sports.sina.com.cn/o/2013-05-17/10206572886.shtml
「運動職業化發展計畫」期末報告
https://www.sa.gov.tw/Resource/Other/f1458023920984.pdf
乒超需向德乒职业联赛取经 体制壁垒下如何管办分离
http://sports.sina.com.cn/o/2012-04-03/09106008535.shtml
德国乒球职业联赛探营：乒协被架空 普及率不输中国
https://sports.sina.cn/sa/2012-04-03/detail-ikftpnny8273466.d.html
特评：德国，中国乒球榜样！
https://sports.qq.com/a/20120326/000801.htm
足球报：在德国，打球的比看球的多
https://sports.qq.com/a/20120326/000787.htm
https://sports.qq.com/zt2012/germany/index.htm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCBjfu9VvzU
Clubs in Germany can get government funding when needed, but are mostly on their own. As Yang Jianhua points out in the second article by Sina below, 15-minute interactive session between players and fans and catering after each match serve as the backbone of the close-knit community formed by the clubs, players and fans.
法国人玩乒乓：一年160欧随便玩儿 联赛多得数不清
http://sports.sina.com.cn/o/2013-05-17/10206572886.shtml
「運動職業化發展計畫」期末報告
https://www.sa.gov.tw/Resource/Other/f1458023920984.pdf
乒超需向德乒职业联赛取经 体制壁垒下如何管办分离
http://sports.sina.com.cn/o/2012-04-03/09106008535.shtml
德国乒球职业联赛探营：乒协被架空 普及率不输中国
https://sports.sina.cn/sa/2012-04-03/detail-ikftpnny8273466.d.html
特评：德国，中国乒球榜样！
https://sports.qq.com/a/20120326/000801.htm
足球报：在德国，打球的比看球的多
https://sports.qq.com/a/20120326/000787.htm
https://sports.qq.com/zt2012/germany/index.htm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCBjfu9VvzU
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Its your assumption and its wrong !
German government is only looking after sports on an individual basis (athletes) and only for those athletes which represent Germany in the Olympic/Paralympics.
The money (around 7 MIO EUR for all sports disciplines last year) is given to a NGO (Stiftung Deutsche Sporthilfe), which also serve as a fund raising institution, that then gives the money to the athletes.
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I think pro players' funding is another different topic.
I don't know Germany but as I see in Netherlands, majority of clubs cannot keep running without some government and municipality fund. (TT Club fees are generally cheaper than other sports). I assume Germany should be similar. At least they should cover rents etc.
I don't know Germany but as I see in Netherlands, majority of clubs cannot keep running without some government and municipality fund. (TT Club fees are generally cheaper than other sports). I assume Germany should be similar. At least they should cover rents etc.
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As already pointed out. This is totally down to the community level. They decide on the benefits a club might receive in form of not paying fees for training hall etc. But there is no government funding and with increasing financial gaps in all communities, the fees become a necessity to run other services (e.g. Kindergarten, Schools etc.), which are also community financed and not run by the government.
You need to understand the "Föderales System" which has clear separation on what is financed by the government and what is financed by the states and what is down to the level of communities. Its a complex system and even if you would know from one club, where there is a bit of public money support, you can not be sure that this is true for the rest of the clubs.
You need to understand the "Föderales System" which has clear separation on what is financed by the government and what is financed by the states and what is down to the level of communities. Its a complex system and even if you would know from one club, where there is a bit of public money support, you can not be sure that this is true for the rest of the clubs.
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German clubs rely a lot on local sponsors
since its a local community, it is common that local companies get involved.
so all depending on what scale of club we talking about, it will also have a direct influence on the size of the company.
France is very unique, the city (local gov) will finance or provide funding to clubs.
There is normally requirements to be met, which is very easy for most clubs.
IE, one of the clubs in Paris, where I sent an SA player many years ago, the club gets 5000 euros a month from the city. They had to run junior programs at "x" hours a week and do certain things to get that money.
The same thing there - that club is a very family nested environment.
since its a local community, it is common that local companies get involved.
so all depending on what scale of club we talking about, it will also have a direct influence on the size of the company.
France is very unique, the city (local gov) will finance or provide funding to clubs.
There is normally requirements to be met, which is very easy for most clubs.
IE, one of the clubs in Paris, where I sent an SA player many years ago, the club gets 5000 euros a month from the city. They had to run junior programs at "x" hours a week and do certain things to get that money.
The same thing there - that club is a very family nested environment.
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