I have been coached by 3 coaches. All of them very different.

[Pnachtwey]

Each has been good in his own way.

I am an old engineer. I don't believe in half the crap that is said by TT experts because I know the physics of what they are saying is all wrong.

My first coach helped some. He wasn't big on technique but he did what I wanted. I believe the most important thing is getting past the first few strokes. My first coach would practice his serves against me and I would try to return them. It helped. I also learned his serving tricks. My serve is the strongest part of my game. After that my foot work and strokes didn't seem to be that important.

My second coach I only had one joint less with him. What was disappointing is that I didn't get to play that much against the coach. The second coach could hit top spins that I had great difficult in trying to return on the table without going long. My first coach had pretty good top spins too but they were manageable after a few lessons. I think if I had more lessons with the second coach I could adapt to the heavy top spin.

My current coach is a young kid from China that is probably the best player of the 3 coaches because he is young. I have only had 2 lesson from him. He works me like I am also 19 yrs old and seems to be more interested in whether I have the perfect stroke and foot work. Come on, I am old and will never have perfect foot work. Also, timing seems to be important. I know that sometimes I rush my shots. I try to move back to get more time but the coach wants me close to the table. I have always been a close to the table player. At lower levels I can get away with it. When playing better players it seems I must take a step back to have more time to react. I only want to get by the first 4 strokes. It will be interesting to see how this progresses.

I know this seems to be more of a blog type of post than asking or telling about something, It just seems to me that different people need different types of coaches. I am taking my lessons while playing with my TBS+2xS2 but I am most comfortable playing with my Firewall Plus with GD Talon 0X on the BH. I don't think most coaches know how to play with LP 0X and push blocker style.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

This is very normal

There is no unified textbook for table tennis technique or coaching manual.
The coaches will use they own judgement and experience to see your suitution (you quoted - old ) and take it from there.
Some coaches emphasize more on serves, some on rallies, some on strokes/technique, some on footworks, some on strategy etc.

As a new coach (2 years), I noticed I have to change my style of coaching towards different kinds of students.
I have between under 10s to over 30s. I don't have over 40s at the moment.
But my method to the under 10s, with 20s and 30s is all different
I also have para players too

I think once the older the student are, the important of the right technique becomes lesser, but it is important for them to understand why a right technique is important and see if they can get close to the "goal" with a wrong technique. And also to tweak it a bit due to physical limitations. It also depending on the goal of the students - maybe they just want to have fun, or to beat some old foe. So it all depends.

 

[Der_Echte]

This is very normal

There is no unified textbook for table tennis technique or coaching manual.
The coaches will use they own judgement and experience to see your suitution (you quoted - old ) and take it from there.
Some coaches emphasize more on serves, some on rallies, some on strokes/technique, some on footworks, some on strategy etc.

As a new coach (2 years), I noticed I have to change my style of coaching towards different kinds of students.
I have between under 10s to over 30s. I don't have over 40s at the moment.
But my method to the under 10s, with 20s and 30s is all different
I also have para players too

I think once the older the student are, the important of the right technique becomes lesser, but it is important for them to understand why a right technique is important and see if they can get close to the "goal" with a wrong technique. And also to tweak it a bit due to physical limitations. It also depending on the goal of the students - maybe they just want to have fun, or to beat some old foe. So it all depends.

Haha, in Korea it is unwritten standardized what they do and it is very similar to what OP is saying the 3rd coach does, once the player gets to a stage where they are more consistent on FH and BH stay alive shots. Once they reach that stage, it is game-on !!! for the coach to attempt (100% success rate) to wear you the heck out with all kind of moving around.

True, though, in USA, an effective coach has to realize he has to work with what he got and find some kind of effective balance between pushing the player to improve technique and keep it within the realistic realm of what he or she can physically or mentally do.

What a lot of USA coaches do to the rich boy crowd is string them along improving something flashy (usually a FH topspin) without greatly improving their overall game and keep the cash cow alive.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Haha, in Korea it is unwritten standardized what they do and it is very similar to what OP is saying the 3rd coach does, once the player gets to a stage where they are more consistent on FH and BH stay alive shots. Once they reach that stage, it is game-on !!! for the coach to attempt (100% success rate) to wear you the heck out with all kind of moving around.

True, though, in USA, an effective coach has to realize he has to work with what he got and find some kind of effective balance between pushing the player to improve technique and keep it within the realistic realm of what he or she can physically or mentally do.

What a lot of USA coaches do to the rich boy crowd is string them along improving something flashy (usually a FH topspin) without greatly improving their overall game and keep the cash cow alive.

Well, regarding Korea, not all of them is like coach 3
I know there is some that is like me - will adapt
some are they for social, so social style coaching

I think what turns average people aware from TT is the rules and the "correct" way of doing things.
Some people just want to have fun - aka garage ping pong - including in China and Korea (and other top TT countries)

Same thing with me, I play half court 3on3 basketball, I don't want to play a proper full court 40 mins game.
Or when I play badminton, I just want to hit the shuttle non stop, and not restricted to who serve or what not.

If I want to play social bball, and i go into a club with serious training/match basketball only, I am going to walk out and find some where else to play.

I think with TT, our clubs are normally big enough to accomdate more than one type of players, thus coaches will need to be flexible in catering for a vast amount of players needs and requirement. Not everyone want to train hard core.

With my students - the older ones, they want to train hardcore once a while, maybe 10%, rest of the time, it is similar to coach 1 and coach 2. The younger ones can (maybe lazy, but they can do it) train 80% hardcore.
Any way, I think it is very difficult to be a coach to cater for all kinds of people.

I personally would just like to focus on high performance training and preparing players (youth) who has the foundation to groom them to become better players (coach 3 type)

 

[anchorschmidt]

Just as an aside, I believe that proper footwork while playing a stroke will put less strain on your back and knees and reduce the amount of energy required to move. Proper footwork evolved because it became the most efficient way to rally.

 

[izra]

i strongly emphasize technique and footwork, even when coaching 40+ students. i try to make their technique as efficient as possible, so they don't lose too much energy when hitting the ball.

as for footwork, i make them do a lot of drills that involve moving around at a moderate pace and hitting the ball very lightly. the point of this is not to physically exhaust them, but to drill in the most efficient footwork patterns. a 200 pound 40 year old can seem quicker than a 150 pound 20 year old if the former of the two knows when and where to put his feet and the later doesn't.

 

[izra]

I don't believe in half the crap that is said by TT experts because I know the physics of what they are saying is all wrong.

i'm no engineer but i know where you're coming from. the most widely spread myth in my opinion, is that accelerating through the ball at contact will produce a more powerful shot "because E=m*a".

another one that i find ridiculous is that you can produce the most spin when looping a backspin ball "because you are spinning the ball in the same direction it's already rotating". sure you are, but your inverted rubber seems to have something against that logic.

 

[Der_Echte]

Korean coaches seem to have ALL been trained under the same system.

My coach was flexible somewhat, she skipped right over the mandatory yearlong phase of on FH light topspin drives forever. I never did that well anyway and she saw I could loop spinny or fast, so she moved me to the sudden death wish workout phase and was grinning like the cat who licked the cream.

Even the not-so-serious players who take lessons get the same system of progression in their unwritten coaching manual, even if some never advance their overall level.

The true social players who want to show up at the club and not really grow their game get just basic club membership for $60 - $70 USD and just play matches and have fun. Nothing wrong with that, such players financially support the club. They are welcome and needed.

It is a reality that a coach cannot identify and fix everything in one or even one hundred sessions and the player may not be able to do some of the things needed to get the player there. An aware coach will see that and strive for a balance, also will figure out what the player wants to do and work in that direction as well. USA clubs are few and far between and good coaches even more. BUt... it is getting better every year.

 

[fais]

Force is proportional to acceleration, and according to the impulse/momentum principle the first isnt a myth.

Having written a 3d rigid body simulator, i know enough about angular collision and response to assure you the second is also not incorrect. What other facts have you been told that you believe are fallacies?

 

[SpinQuark]

With regards to getting most spin looping a backspin ball - you have to remember the ball is already spinning in the direction you are trying to impart spin. Therefore the speed of your moving rubber relative to the surface of the already rotating ball is lower.

I think older players can still learn good technique and it would be a great shame if many coaches start by making pre-judgements based on age. I would hope the key factor would be the determination and perseverance of the player rather than their age. I think the coach needs to be able to help the player learn how the correct movements feel by moving their body for them and by giving them mental images and thoughts to use. There are a lot of these for Golf another technically demanding sport. Golf also has many drills which have been invented to develop or adjust swing technique. I am surprised that Table Tennis doesn't have more of these. One of the few I have come across is to place your free hand on your playing forearm as you practice forehands to encourage the body to turn during the forehand stroke.

 

[Der_Echte]

Each has been good in his own way.

I am an old engineer. I don't believe in half the crap that is said by TT experts because I know the physics of what they are saying is all wrong.

My first coach helped some. He wasn't big on technique but he did what I wanted. I believe the most important thing is getting past the first few strokes. My first coach would practice his serves against me and I would try to return them. It helped. I also learned his serving tricks. My serve is the strongest part of my game. After that my foot work and strokes didn't seem to be that important.

My second coach I only had one joint less with him. What was disappointing is that I didn't get to play that much against the coach. The second coach could hit top spins that I had great difficult in trying to return on the table without going long. My first coach had pretty good top spins too but they were manageable after a few lessons. I think if I had more lessons with the second coach I could adapt to the heavy top spin.

My current coach is a young kid from China that is probably the best player of the 3 coaches because he is young. I have only had 2 lesson from him. He works me like I am also 19 yrs old and seems to be more interested in whether I have the perfect stroke and foot work. Come on, I am old and will never have perfect foot work. Also, timing seems to be important. I know that sometimes I rush my shots. I try to move back to get more time but the coach wants me close to the table. I have always been a close to the table player. At lower levels I can get away with it. When playing better players it seems I must take a step back to have more time to react. I only want to get by the first 4 strokes. It will be interesting to see how this progresses.

I know this seems to be more of a blog type of post than asking or telling about something, It just seems to me that different people need different types of coaches. I am taking my lessons while playing with my TBS+2xS2 but I am most comfortable playing with my Firewall Plus with GD Talon 0X on the BH. I don't think most coaches know how to play with LP 0X and push blocker style.

1/3 of Korea plays as a close to the table OX LP on BH punchblocker/attacker. 90% of these are ladies, which means that over 1/2 the entire female 40+ TT population of Korea plays close to table with an OFF+ blade, control rubber on FH in max, and an OX LP (always Grass D-Techs). EVERY Korean club has a dozen or more of these players and Korean coach has got to coach them, even if he or she was a former pro with attacking 2x inverted style.

Coaches start them out with the same repetitive FH drive, then slowly add in one step, two step footwork into the drills. When the player shows coach he or she can hit a thousand with next to no misses, the coach makes the drills the next level, little step each one. LOTS of time early is taught on FH drive and BH punch to keep the ball alive. AFTER they show enough consistency, coach starts training them on how to use the OX LP. Coach will do no-spin punch to get the player to medium punch no-spin. Coach will multiball chop and OX Player with punch underspin. Player will serve underspin, coach pushed underspin, and OX player punches. After a while, the old lady crowd gets pretty damned good at punching underspin and handling no-spin. Coach also attacks a LOT to their BH and player gets a lot of practice blocking topspin with OX LP.

This is the early basic training program that every club does for the OX LP player and it is with a plan, even if the coach in not an OX LP player. Fact of life is there are so many OX LP players there, coach MUST train them or close his club. If the ladies stopped going to TT club, it would be a financial ruin.

It is unfortunate that in USA, we do not have many REAL clubs open every day with a real coaching staff that has a plan and ability. We basically have only some rented out places to play matches. The lucky duck who has a club within reasonable distance often has bad luck with coaching as for some reason the coaches seem to do their best to turn the player into something he or she will never become.

I am not a 2000 level player, but I bet lunch I could coach this playing style better than 90%+ of USA coaches and raise the playing level of a player measurably within 8 months of 3x20 minutes lesson a week for those 8 months.

 

[Der_Echte]

Ironically, my lady coach was a top level defender in Korean pro league teaching me to be a flexible all out attacker.

As for underspin, there are many ways to attack with it. Dropping it short actually is an attack in my book if it makes the player rush to a failure. Killing the spin and placing it medium pace to the crossover is an attacking option in my book. Hitting through the ball with open bat follow through upwards is an attack (that results in a fast loop or fast drive) Many ways to handle the ball that is NOT a slow, spinny loop and in my way of thinking, if it results in a point, or directly leads to it, then it is an attack (or connecting shot to an attack). Either way, it is all OFFENSE to me.

It burns me (the same way it seems to burn the OP) about situation of USA "clubs" and coaching.

 

[Pnachtwey]

It burns me (the same way it seems to burn the OP) about situation of USA "clubs" and coaching.

It is my job to take the best from the 3 coaches. I have the wisdom/experience to do that.
I have said before that I am an old grumpy no nonsense engineer that knows when someone is telling me something that defies the laws of physics.
When it comes to the physics of TT there is only one truth. However there are many different styles and apparently many techniques.

I have normally played with SP or LP on my BH. However, when taking lessons from this coach I have elected to use double inverted. I haven't played with anything else since I have started lessons. I had a good 3rd lesson. I even surprised myself. Usually I am dead tired afterwards. I took Friday off so I would be fresh on Saturday. I am the boss so I can do that.

This lesson was mostly about timing. Wait for it then stroke using mostly the forearm rotating around the elbow. I don't get too many complaints about my foot work. My foot work isn't great but it isn't the limiting factor at this time.
I found that I could expedite things if I called out my errors so the coach new I knew I was doing it wrong. This way we didn't have to stop for a talk.

There seems to be a big a difference between the 2nd and 3rd coach even though they are both very good but with different styles. I am sure that all coaches are not good for all players. Each player needs a coach that is right for him or her.

 

[Der_Echte]

OX LP punchblocker / smash loose stuff on FH doesn't require the footwork of Mercury himself. A step around, one step, slide step, and two step dome competently is plenty enough footwork in the arsenal for that style of player. It is mostly about knowing what troubles the opponent and doing it, then cleaning up the mess. Sound decision making is more valuable than sheer athleticism.

EDIT: Heck, that style doesn't even require a FH loop to make 2000 USATT. Most important part of the FH drive or smash attack is that it is done on balance in rhythm and impacted within the effective strike zone.

 

[Pnachtwey]

Roger the LP 0X play but I think playing push blocker style is a little harder than you think. Around here people know how to play against LP 0X. Many can return/attack and LP 0X ball if it comes back long and too slow even if it is low.

I don't think any of my 3 coaches really approve of LP or could show me what I can't see watching PushBlocker on YouTube. They don't play push blocker style. I started playing LP 0X 4 years ago because I wasn't in good enough shape to play for any length of time double inverted. I can chicken wing with my elbow high but my new coach cringes. I can twiddle too. One must be able to twiddle when playing push blocker style. Twiddling drives opponents nuts. Inverted strokes are all different from LP strokes but inverted BH strokes are good when twiddling. But now people now say I play better with double inverted. I haven't played with my Firewall Plus for a month and a half. I miss my LP 0X but real satisfaction comes from whipping back a serve or making a successful 3rd ball attack.

 

[Der_Echte]

Just for the sheer surprise (works up to USATT 2000 ish if both players around that level) it is good to be able to twiddle and use inverted BH. The inverted BH attack can be decisive and point winning at many levels, even pro level. That is a good reason to train it well.

Most Korean players, even 2X inverted players have zero or poor BH loops even at USATT 2000-2100 range. Coaches do not teach this as a huge weapon until they are Div 1 or strong Div 2 and then it takes a while to take effect in match play with results.

Coach can cringe at the Dr. Neubauer BH block on FH side or even the BH attack/punch from FH side. So friggin' what. They are not you and do not have Ur body and you don't exactly aspire to be 2100+ level 2 wing loop attacking dominator. Under 2000 level, such a shot, if consistent, (and a plus to be well placed/deep with enough pace to discourage step around) is still a very valid connecting, sometimes error inducing shot that has a place in your game if you choose to play that way.

Being close to the table can sometimes be difficult. You have less time to react and plan. You improve your performance by selecting ahead of time your shots based on zone and consistency/placement/enough pace helps. Even if the balls comes to FH and Der_Echte MIGHT have done a step around FH speed drive, there are times where I am choosing to block everything off the bounce and play an inverted version of Pushblocker's tactics to outlast opponent in those rallies I choose to play that way. I defeated a mid 2000s 2x inverted attacker in my first tourney back from Korea with that style on around 1/2 my points (usually on receive) and won 3-0 and I am not 2000 NE East Coast level. (I am likely lower in level by now no practice/training/few matches in over a year)

You can still make 2000 level with your selected style of play and having a sudden BH inverted attack can help if you can set it up and execute consistently along with the other allround things that level requires in terms of quality.

 

[fais]

With regards to getting most spin looping a backspin ball - you have to remember the ball is already spinning in the direction you are trying to impart spin. Therefore the speed of your moving rubber relative to the surface of the already rotating ball is lower.

That isn't how it works. Just because the contact velocity appears relatively lower than if the ball was spinning the other way doesn't make a difference. The ball was already spinning in the same direction, and you amplified it.

The math behind it - the angular acceleration vector resulting from the torque imparted by the paddle on to the ball points in the same direction as the existing angular velocity vector of the spinning ball, i.e. the dot product of the two is positive. That means after integration, it will increase the magnitude of the existing angular velocity vector, which means it will absolutely increase the spin.

 

[izra]

That isn't how it works. Just because the contact velocity appears relatively lower than if the ball was spinning the other way doesn't make a difference. The ball was already spinning in the same direction, and you amplified it.

The math behind it - the angular acceleration vector resulting from the torque imparted by the paddle on to the ball points in the same direction as the existing angular velocity vector of the spinning ball, i.e. the dot product of the two is positive. That means after integration, it will increase the magnitude of the existing angular velocity vector, which means it will absolutely increase the spin.

wrong. you forget that your rubber surface grips the rotating ball and stops it from rotating. because it is elastic the spin actually gets reversed in a trampoline like fashion. so you are not continuing the spin, but rather trying to negate the backspin that wants to be reversed and imparting topspin instead of it.

now when looping a topspin ball, this is when you create most topspin with the least effort, because your own topspin gets added to the topspin that is being reversed from the incoming ball.

the only reason we can all create such spinny shots when looping backspin is because the angle of the shot allows us to put in a greater effort into brushing and spinning the ball than in any other situation.

 

[Pnachtwey]

Fais is correct.

you forget that your rubber surface grips the rotating ball and stops it from rotating

The doesn't stop rotating.
This debate should be done on another thread.

 

[fais]

wrong. you forget that your rubber surface grips the rotating ball and stops it from rotating. because it is elastic the spin actually gets reversed in a trampoline like fashion. so you are not continuing the spin, but rather trying to negate the backspin that wants to be reversed and imparting topspin instead of it.

now when looping a topspin ball, this is when you create most topspin with the least effort, because your own topspin gets added to the topspin that is being reversed from the incoming ball.

the only reason we can all create such spinny shots when looping backspin is because the angle of the shot allows us to put in a greater effort into brushing and spinning the ball than in any other situation.

I hate to hijack this post but I am enjoying this discussion. My comment is about the spin, not the direction of where the ball heads after contact. There are two separate velocities at play, linear velocity and angular velocity, I am merely focusing on the latter. Without getting into too much detail, consider this.

Joo Se Hyuk chops, and Ma Long top spins it back, and this process repeats. After so many top spin returns by ML, ML is left with little choice but to drop shot/chop the JSH's chop back. Why? to kill the spin - because the angular velocity on the ball has compounded so much due to repeated torque applied by both players in the same direction, that the effect of the angular velocity on the ball's trajectory upon contact vastly dwarfs that of the ball's linear velocity. i.e, the spin completely takes over. This indicates that as far as the spin is concerned, top spinning a chop will make the ball spin in the same direction more and more.

My point is not about controlling the ball, it is about the spin. Sure the ball will go into the net but the existing spin will be amplified.