Is ma long the GOAT ?

[NextLevel]

The important message here is that MLin stated that right before Rotterdam 2011 and so he could've used greatest of all time instead but he chose not to. Why?

Wang Liqin exists.

 

[zeio]

But WLQ has neither World Cup, nor Olympics singles titles. MLin could theoretically have competed with Waldner for the GOAT.

 

[rainneverever]

A little bit off topic. I saw this before here and I am curious when ML refused post match interview after 2019 Asian Cup. Instead, he said he was very satisfied about the result to TTW magazine.

 

[RidTheKid]

Are you seriously debating that the players on top 30 list aren't good? How do you know that LJK won't be a future world number 1? He just beat the world number 1 by being better. And Ma Long outmanuevered LJK. Calderano beat Fzd, are you saying that Hugo isn't good? And Ma Long beat HC comfortably. Again. Ma Long had problems defeating ONE player in the world and in ONE event. That says nothing. Some styles are not easy to beat no matter how good you are. But, with the bh ML has today he would definitely tear WH a new one. ML wasn't ready in 2011 but he's been ready since 2015 and only thing that will stop him is father time and injuries.

Well. People said similar things about Federer in the mid 2000s. Then what happened?

Other great players showed up and he suddenly started losing more. How to define a great player? Someone who is consistently going deep in every event even if they are not winning the titles because another great player won it.

Ma Long is clearly great. Where is his great competition now? We knew where it was in 2010 to 2015. Right now, there is really only Fan Zhendong who is relatively inexperienced.

 

[NextLevel]

A little bit off topic. I saw this before here and I am curious when ML refused post match interview after 2019 Asian Cup. Instead, he said he was very satisfied about the result to TTW magazine.

Usually there is video after the match. Maybe they just didn't catch him and I missed it. Ask zeio.

 

[zeio]

Usually there is video after the match. Maybe they just didn't catch him and I missed it. Ask zeio.

I didn't see any on Zhibo TV.

 

[NextLevel]

But WLQ has neither World Cup, nor Olympics singles titles. MLin could theoretically have competed with Waldner for the GOAT.

People know the relative difficulty of winning the events based on the draws and the number of great players etc. Even Waldner ranks Wang Liqin and Wang Hao over Ma Lin. World Cup is not a real slam to anyone.

 

[NextLevel]

Are you seriously debating that the players on top 30 list aren't good? How do you know that LJK won't be a future world number 1? He just beat the world number 1 by being better. And Ma Long outmanuevered LJK. Calderano beat Fzd, are you saying that Hugo isn't good? And Ma Long beat HC comfortably. Again. Ma Long had problems defeating ONE player in the world and in ONE event. That says nothing. Some styles are not easy to beat no matter how good you are. But, with the bh ML has today he would definitely tear WH a new one. ML wasn't ready in 2011 but he's been ready since 2015 and only thing that will stop him is father time and injuries.

I gave a definition. You are using yours.

If XX and FZD had made the semis again this year by my definition, then we would have a conversation. ML is the great player of the plastic ball generation but he isn't competing against any others. In 2013, he was competing with many great players. Not hard to understand.

 

[rainneverever]

Nowadays ITTF doesn't do live interview of runner-up after the match. And there isn't any press conference after Asian Cup.
Zhibo TV didn't post interview with ML after the final, and Zhibo TV didn't post interview with CM after the final either. Maybe Zhibo TV didn't ask them at all. Maybe ML and/or CM didn't want to talk. Before confirming with Zhibo TV journalist that ML and/or CM refused the interview, it doesn't really help any argument here.

 

[zeio]

People know the relative difficulty of winning the events based on the draws and the number of great players etc. Even Waldner ranks Wang Liqin and Wang Hao over Ma Lin. World Cup is not a real slam to anyone.

That's an interesting point. In 2013, Sina interviewed Waldner. When asked who he had the most difficulty playing and who he admired the most among all the players he's played, he answered...

http://sports.sina.com.cn/o/2013-09-27/16336803953.shtml

　　提问：请问老瓦，在曾经与您交手过的中国运动员中你最欣赏谁？

　　瓦尔德内尔：张继科。
...
　　提问：老瓦先生，我想问的是，您和中国这么多代乒乓球运动员交手，您觉得谁最难打呢？还有，和您一样的两位大满贯现在都是主教练，您没有想做教练的意愿是吗？很期待在比赛场上再次看到您

　　瓦尔德内尔：最初是马琳和刘国梁。关于做教练，目前没有时间。因为我在瑞典依然参加职业比赛。此外我还做许多别的事，如今天来北京参加这个邮票的活动。我们还有一个网站www.lao-wa.com,很多相关事务也需要我。当国家队教练每年需要270天以上的训练时间，目前真的顾不上。

Question: I would like to ask Lao Wa, among the Chinese players you have played with, who do you admire the most?

Waldner: Zhang Jike.
...
Question: Mr. Lao Wa, here's my question. You've played with so many generations of Chinese players. Who do you think is the most difficult to play? Also, the 2 Grand Slam holders like you are now head coaches. Do you want to be a coach? I'm looking forward to seeing you again in the arena.

Waldner: Originally, Ma Lin and Liu Guoliang. There is currently no time for coaching. Because I still participate in leagues in Sweden. In addition, I have many other things to do, such as attending this stamp event in Beijing today. We also have a website www.lao-wa.com, and many related matters also require me. When the national team coach needs more than 270 days of training time each year, I really can't take it.

 

[AKB5]

This debate is out of control. So many Ifs, but not recognizing ML's accomplishments.

"It is difficult to have an argument with an intelligent person, it is impossible to have an argument with an illogical person."

 

[NextLevel]

That's an interesting point. In 2013, Sina interviewed Waldner. When asked who he had the most difficulty playing and who he admired the most among all the players he's played, he answered...

http://sports.sina.com.cn/o/2013-09-27/16336803953.shtml

Question: I would like to ask Lao Wa, among the Chinese players you have played with, who do you admire the most?

Waldner: Zhang Jike.
...
Question: Mr. Lao Wa, here's my question. You've played with so many generations of Chinese players. Who do you think is the most difficult to play? Also, the 2 Grand Slam holders like you are now head coaches. Do you want to be a coach? I'm looking forward to seeing you again in the arena.

Waldner: Originally, Ma Lin and Liu Guoliang. There is currently no time for coaching. Because I still participate in leagues in Sweden. In addition, I have many other things to do, such as attending this stamp event in Beijing today. We also have a website www.lao-wa.com, and many related matters also require me. When the national team coach needs more than 270 days of training time each year, I really can't take it.

I think you should look at his ranking of the best players of all time. You might get a different perspective there.

 

[NextLevel]

This debate is out of control. So many Ifs, but not recognizing ML's accomplishments.

"It is difficult to have an argument with an intelligent person, it is impossible to have an argument with an illogical person."

It is a sign of maturity to recognize that disagreement is inherent in the human condition given the subjective nature of life.

 

[zeio]

I think you should look at his ranking of the best players of all time. You might get a different perspective there.

I've seen that interview. But MLin is 8-3 up against Waldner. Ya, he lost in Athens but according to the logic held by many here, that shouldn't "tarnish" his greatness.

 

[rainneverever]

2012 WH got cortisone shot on elbow for the 4th time before London OG. 2016 ML got cortisone shot on wrist before Rio OG. ZJK didn't get anything before both OG.
But here people say ML beat a injured ZJK and no one say ZJK beat a injured WH or got beaten by a injured ML.

BTW, when did JW play with ZJK?

 

[NextLevel]

I've seen that interview. But MLin is 8-3 up against Waldner. Ya, he lost in Athens but according to the logic held by many here, that shouldn't "tarnish" his greatness.

I think when you look at something like GOAT, you take a broad perspective of everything and weight some things with relative importance. I think if you do, despite details and quibbles here and there, Ma Long is the greatest player of the modern era. I don't deny that I wish he had greater competition at the majors, but he can't be faulted for his generation not stepping up to the plate. Hopefully he will play long enough for us to see what happens when FZD really comes of age, though I think Japan and Korea might give FZD all he needs.

 

[RidTheKid]

Haha I agree 100%. It's like some people here are just trying to find faults in ML's resume and highlighting those few road bumps. LGL seems to think that Ma Long is the greatest ever as well. But what does he know!

This debate is out of control. So many Ifs, but not recognizing ML's accomplishments.

"It is difficult to have an argument with an intelligent person, it is impossible to have an argument with an illogical person."

 

[RidTheKid]

You express yourself beautifully (no irony). But how do we know on this forum that we have the same frame of reference? How can you be sure that you've watched TT as much as others here, or vice versa? How do we reach the conclusion who understands what's valuable in TT? We all seem to value different things. I'd like others to point out what makes a GOAT. And give me the name of their candidate.

It is a sign of maturity to recognize that disagreement is inherent in the human condition given the subjective nature of life.

 

[rainneverever]

MLin said 我这一代, meaning my generation NOT my time. In Chinese, a generation can refer to any range from 3 years to 30 years. Since MLin specifically mentioned Grand Slam, there were 3 Grand Slam winners already and LGL is only 4 years elder than MLin. WLQ and MLin are considered one generation in CNT and WH is considered as later generation. So the generation here does not mean very long time.

MLin once said "Today I am a real man" after winning Beijing OG. Was he not a real man before?
[FONT=&quot]“今天，我是个真正的男子汉。[/FONT]
http://2008.sohu.com/20080824/n259166696.shtml

 

[zeio]

I think when you look at something like GOAT, you take a broad perspective of everything and weight some things with relative importance. I think if you do, despite details and quibbles here and there, Ma Long is the greatest player of the modern era. I don't deny that I wish he had greater competition at the majors, but he can't be faulted for his generation not stepping up to the plate. Hopefully he will play long enough for us to see what happens when FZD really comes of age, though I think Japan and Korea might give FZD all he needs.

As I've posted 2 times already. ML's the most decorated. That's the most generous you'll have it from me. But GOAT? Greatest of his time at best.