Is penhold still viable?

[Wuh]

I’ve been playing with penhold grip for a while now and I find it comfortable and fun (I have shakehand experience too) but (although I’m getting decent at backhand returns) the backhand is kind of a weak point and I’ve been told to switch to shakehand for a better backhand. My forehand is noticeably better on penhold but backhand is better on shakehand. I’ve been trying to find unique grips online but no luck. Is penhold viable and what should I do?

 

[Scarfed Garchomp]

There are still penholders at the highest level of skill in this sport. While I do think penhold is in general more complex and difficult to make progress with in certain areas when compared to shake, I don't think it makes penhold unviable as a whole. To make the decision for yourself I think you need to take into consideration what your goals are, how much value you can get from continuing to play ph versus how much you might gain or lose from transitioning to shakehand

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I’ve been playing with penhold grip for a while now and I find it comfortable and fun (I have shakehand experience too) but (although I’m getting decent at backhand returns) the backhand is kind of a weak point and I’ve been told to switch to shakehand for a better backhand. My forehand is noticeably better on penhold but backhand is better on shakehand. I’ve been trying to find unique grips online but no luck. Is penhold viable and what should I do?

Penhold sadly, requires more time to master than shakehand, especially since footwork is so much more important.
RPB is a must and if done wrong, will lead to wrist injuries more than a shakehand wrong bh technique.

As a RPB penhold player myself, I still rely a lot more on my FH, which includes pivot on the backhand side. Thus equate to more footwork requirements.

Most penholders I know in person and pros I know, the career is a lot shorter due to "footwork".
while two wing shakehand players who has stronger backhand, tend to last much longer.

In today's modern table tennis, shakehand does dominate the space. LP choppers population is probably way bigger than penholder population in the youth side of thing - world wide. LP chopper population is minute compared to attacking shakehand player in comparison.

Having said that, if you up for the challenge, you can be unique, but you will need a coach to work on that backhand

 

[pilami]

I’ve been playing with penhold grip for a while now and I find it comfortable and fun (I have shakehand experience too) but (although I’m getting decent at backhand returns) the backhand is kind of a weak point and I’ve been told to switch to shakehand for a better backhand. My forehand is noticeably better on penhold but backhand is better on shakehand. I’ve been trying to find unique grips online but no luck. Is penhold viable and what should I do?

I would tend to think that current non-Chinese top players like Felix Lebrun and and Dang Qiu have demonstrated that penholders backhand can be strong

But... they are using inverted and if your profile is correct you are using long pips.
It probably means that in penhold you play 2/3 of the table with your forehand and 1/3 with backhand, if you switch to shakehand I suspect that you will play more with the backhand. Whether it's a drawback or an advantage depends on you.

 

[jbvttcc]

I’ve been playing with penhold grip for a while now and I find it comfortable and fun (I have shakehand experience too) but (although I’m getting decent at backhand returns) the backhand is kind of a weak point and I’ve been told to switch to shakehand for a better backhand. My forehand is noticeably better on penhold but backhand is better on shakehand. I’ve been trying to find unique grips online but no luck. Is penhold viable and what should I do?

We have to work a little harder as penholders especially though of us who play TPB. But there’s a special satisfaction we have with our strokes relative to our grip
And penhold players add an an extra bit of variety and interest in our sport.

 

[hclnnkhg]

Penhold is viable in 40+ era unless your goal is to win the Olympics (Maybe Felix will surprise me next year ). Whether it is the best style for you is a different matter.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Penhold is viable in 40+ era unless your goal is to win the Olympics (Maybe Felix will surprise me next year ). Whether it is the best style for you is a different matter.

but then penhold has how many olympic champions in the 38 and 40mm ball era?

 

[JJ Ng]

I’ve been playing with penhold grip for a while now and I find it comfortable and fun (I have shakehand experience too) but (although I’m getting decent at backhand returns) the backhand is kind of a weak point and I’ve been told to switch to shakehand for a better backhand. My forehand is noticeably better on penhold but backhand is better on shakehand. I’ve been trying to find unique grips online but no luck. Is penhold viable and what should I do?

I think you should do what is fun and entertaining for you. We can be honest. You are not training to be Olympic champion. So table tennis is about bring you joy and some physical exercise. Don't take fun out of table tennis.

So pick the grip that you enjoy the most. There is no perfect grip.

I played penhold as a junior player. I switched to shakehand when I turned 40.

When my kids are more into table tennis, I will play penhold with them to give them a different look.

Even once in a while, in doubles play, I will pick up a blade with long pips on one side. It is fun!!

 

[hclnnkhg]

but then penhold has how many olympic champions in the 38 and 40mm ball era?

I specifically said 40+ to avoid this question

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I specifically said 40+ to avoid this question

well, if another penholder won the OG, chances of ball going to 44+mm is pretty high lol

 

[Dominikk85]

Penhold sadly, requires more time to master than shakehand, especially since footwork is so much more important.
RPB is a must and if done wrong, will lead to wrist injuries more than a shakehand wrong bh technique.

As a RPB penhold player myself, I still rely a lot more on my FH, which includes pivot on the backhand side. Thus equate to more footwork requirements.

Most penholders I know in person and pros I know, the career is a lot shorter due to "footwork".
while two wing shakehand players who has stronger backhand, tend to last much longer.

In today's modern table tennis, shakehand does dominate the space. LP choppers population is probably way bigger than penholder population in the youth side of thing - world wide. LP chopper population is minute compared to attacking shakehand player in comparison.

Having said that, if you up for the challenge, you can be unique, but you will need a coach to work on that backhand

Maybe part of why some ph players took longer to master was that they learned both tpb and rpb? Xu xin took long to improve his rpb but he learned traditional first. On the other hand felix LeBron had a very polished rpb at age 15-16, probably because he only learned rpb and didn't need to learn two backhands.

Regarding longevity a running around forehand attacker (like RSM) might have a shorter career but blocker or twiddler types can have a long career, see he zhi wen or ni xia Liang who beat top 50 players in the world after turning 50.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Regarding longevity a running around forehand attacker (like RSM) might have a shorter career but blocker or twiddler types can have a long career, see he zhi wen or ni xia Liang who beat top 50 players in the world after turning 50.

correct, if you can slow the ball down, you can have a longer career.
Ma Long, Timo Boll, Chuang, all have good backhands, and can have longer career.

FH dominated player, Aruna is a special breed.

 

[NextLevel]

correct, if you can slow the ball down, you can have a longer career.
Ma Long, Timo Boll, Chuang, all have good backhands, and can have longer career.

FH dominated player, Aruna is a special breed.

Aruna is play more and more backhand too... it is just the gap between both sides is large.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

is penhold viable?

check for yourself

 

[kingkimchi]

I’ve been playing with penhold grip for a while now and I find it comfortable and fun (I have shakehand experience too) but (although I’m getting decent at backhand returns) the backhand is kind of a weak point and I’ve been told to switch to shakehand for a better backhand. My forehand is noticeably better on penhold but backhand is better on shakehand. I’ve been trying to find unique grips online but no luck. Is penhold viable and what should I do?

you're just not up to like xu xin or wong chun ting level. they have no problemwith bh to bh rallies, even in the warm up!

 

[kingkimchi]

Penhold is viable in 40+ era unless your goal is to win the Olympics (Maybe Felix will surprise me next year ). Whether it is the best style for you is a different matter.

nah. Its wong chun ting frr

 

[SFF_lib]

A big distinction is that, you must play penhold with a lot of thoughts and strategically win points. For penholders you need to think of placements, surprises, services and variations.

Among amateurs penhold is still alive and strong!!

 

[blahness]

I’ve been playing with penhold grip for a while now and I find it comfortable and fun (I have shakehand experience too) but (although I’m getting decent at backhand returns) the backhand is kind of a weak point and I’ve been told to switch to shakehand for a better backhand. My forehand is noticeably better on penhold but backhand is better on shakehand. I’ve been trying to find unique grips online but no luck. Is penhold viable and what should I do?

Inverted RPB is a solid option for penholders, but the true darksiders use long pips on the back and twiddle for max disruptiveness

 

[James Z]

I’ve been playing with penhold grip for a while now and I find it comfortable and fun (I have shakehand experience too) but (although I’m getting decent at backhand returns) the backhand is kind of a weak point and I’ve been told to switch to shakehand for a better backhand. My forehand is noticeably better on penhold but backhand is better on shakehand. I’ve been trying to find unique grips online but no luck. Is penhold viable and what should I do?

Reasons why penhold is still very much viable & is also the best grip​

Yet another case of right answers to the wrong question in (table tennis) forums.

I am not trashing the OP because I am not all blaming him for asking the question however because if he had known the answer he would not have asked in the first place. So it is perfectly OK & I will answer.

It does not matter penhold is viable or not in tabletennis. Assuming you are a competitive player ( & not an exercise player), if penhold is your natural grip, that is what you should pursue PERIOD

I know of or heard of quite a few coaches who try to convert penholders into shakehanders. This probably happens in all countries other than in far east since penhold is well known in the far east.

Supposedly because of supposedly a weak penhold backhand, which has become less & less true.

Because from what I heard, even the 1961, 1963 & 1965 World Champion Zhuang Zedong had a stronger backhand than his forehand. He was a TPG player.

I always wondered if Zhuang Zedong would have beaten the 1967 World Champion Hasegawa. would have beaten Zhuang Zedong ( Zhuang did not defend his title at the 1967 World Championships since China did not participate)

Hasegawa used to be a penholder but switched to the weirdest shakehand grip when he won. He had his finger right up the middle on the backhand side like many basement players do & even more strange is that he was supposedly one of best lobbers in his time .
And zccording to English Champion Chester Barnes in his book, Hasegawa supposedly had the fastest loop along with Danny Seemiller Sr. , who had his own famous grip. More on this below.

TPG (Traditional Penhold Grip) means, backhands are also played using same side of racket from forehand side) player.

RPG (Reverse Penhold Grip) with RPL (Reverse Penhold Loop) arrived via HPG (Hybrid Penhold Grip) as pioneered by Liu Guo Liang.

HPG (Hybrid Penhold) players use both TPG & RPG. But LGL (Liu Guo Liang)’s HPG is better than XU Xin or Wang Hao’s RPG

This is because LGL used short pips on forehand to hit & top spin. And he also did TPG blocks with pips from his forehand on his backhand . He also used spinverted on backhand to loop. He also occasionally twiddled boldly & cleverly at key points of a match such as deuce etc to loop from his forehand using spinverted.

One sided grips such as Penhold or American grip are better grips than shakehand grip, but ONLY if penhold or American grip is your best natural grip.

What is an American grip ? This is generally known as Seemiller grip but it would be more appropriate to call it the American (basement) grip because both Dan Seemiller Sr & Eric Boggan used this grip & both were national champions & both reached a world highest rating of #18. Seemiller’s grip was more forehand (looping) dominant and Eric Boogan’s grip was more backhand (blocking) dominant & both use spinverted one side & anti on the other side & I have always wondered why they have not moved on to functional super pips more compatible with the 40+ plastic ball ONLY era instead of the now mostly obsolete social anti rubber.

Scott Boggan & Tim Boggan play traditional shakehand & if I am not mistaken, also Dan Seemiller Jr but Eric & Randy Seemiller use American grip
Alexander Karakasavic is a shakehander with one of the best backhands but his father Milivoj Karakaševic was a penholder
I am saying to highlight the fact that a player's grip is more natural & personal & not something you can choose at will.

However my personal favorite grip was a variation of the American grip used by father son combination of Brain & David Shapiro. This was sort of a 4 sided variation of the American grip in that they can use their social long pips or spinverted on both forehand & backhand but without twiddling. I tried to use it but never worked for me & I am cursed with regular shakehand grip.

Why is penhold the best grip ?​

1. More powerful forehand if looping using a spinverted rubber or if flat hitting if using short pips (especially if with fingers spread out on the back of the racket done more by jPen players) This is an extremely crucial factor because (i) for almost all racket sports, forehand is the stronger side for most humans and (ii) tabletennis is a forehand dominant sport lot more than other racket sports for most players, especially amateurs.
2. More spinny & more deceptive serves
3. HPG (Hybrid Penhold Grip) used by Liu Guo Liang using both TPG and RPG at will)
4. No shakehander disease (center weakness)
5. The RPG backhand may be less powerful than shakehand but is more effective than shakehand because it is sort of weird with its natural built in side spin and delayed timing & deception with direction especially when using either fade or hook loop
6. The TPG punch block is more deadly because it is more dead (or can be a side spin block with crazy side spin like Kim Taek Soo's TPG block kill) & can be much faster.

Again, all this is of course theoretically speaking (as you have not seen a high level HPG player after Liu Guo Liang, even Wang Hao & Xu Xin were RPG & of course Ma Lin & He Shi Wen & Jiang Ji Liang are TPG)

Before the arrival of internet communications It used to be hard to even visualize a penhold grip growing up in a tennis environment (or even other racket sports) far away from the far east as in Europe

Most natural shakehanders are bad penholders but a lot of natural penholders I have seen can also play decent shakehand & can even train to use shakehands strategically in matches

Also if you are a shakehander, even if you can twiddle like crazy using two rubber types , I have never seen a player twiddle while the ball is on its way but with HPG you can decide whether to play a TPG stroke or RPG stroke as the ball is approaching (though this is quite advanced play & I have seen only players like Liu Guo Liang do it)

However you cannot force the issue & try to be a penholder when you are a natural shakehander & vice versa. (This is somewhat similar most of the amateurs trying to be two winged loopers. Because very few of them have looping or other skills or style or consistency on their backhand similar to their looping forehand or like the pros. But they still ty to keep forcing the issue because (i) they want to blindly emulate their favorite pro or (ii) they think it is sexy or (iii) fear of social rejection if they use pips / anti) .

But I have always wondered how a player or a coach can quickly identify the best natural grip for a given player

I posted my reply as the first person to reply to the OP a week or so ago

But it was deleted & won’t be surprised if it happens again or gets moved to the graveyard thread of orphaned posts

 

[Ch3nM3ng]

Jpen no longer viable.
I'm sure you'll find exceptions, probably even a couple of top 100 international (if there are any at this point) or top ranking players within their own respective national scenes. Maybe someone will even post that video of the Japanese guy playing against Xia with a really powerful TBH loop but not every person is gifted with contortionism. One might say
"just practice" but what is good is practice when every session brings you closer and closer to arthitis + carpal tunnel syndrome?
The fact is Shakehand just has way more options that don't require you to repeatedly injure yourself.

Cpen while I feel is still viable needs a lot of adjustment to be able to execute all shots that Shakehand allows. Felix Lebrun is doing great now but he is also in near physical prime. He's quick enough on his feet to perfectly position himself for those RPB shots but I feel like his refusal to sand his blades adequately is holding him back from realizing full range of motion RPB strokes.