Life, Existence, and the Meaning of Long Pips - The Opus Maximus of James Z

[ander999]

Man I was having a great weekend not seeing your idiotic posts but i guess the break has ended.

People can play for fun and not for exercise and not to be competitive. Sorry to break it to you pal.

 

[Jslick89]

If he is playing in a league how is it that a 1500 player not trying to compete & try his best to win ? Is it not unethical & also skews the rating for the whole league depending on the amount of his screwing around to have fun ? In other words he is competing . May be not in a tournament but in a league & that is still competing

Our league is not even sanctioned. This player is not a USATT member, and I do not believe he has any intention of doing so. He "competes" to win his table.....but he's not competing in the way that I am (having an ultimate goal of 2000+ USATT, play in sanctioned tournaments.... and to eventually coach beginner players.

It's not unethical to play for fun in an unsanctioned league.

I guess what it comes down to is what is your definition of competing. For me, it means a serious commitment to becoming the best possible player.

To put things into reference, I played adult recreation soccer for over 15 years. I played hundreds of matches (maybe over 1000?). Was I a competitive soccer player? No. I was a recreational soccer player. I played the sport for FUN. You could argue that I also liked the fitness that came along with playing soccer, but i was also a regular at the gym lifting weights. While soccer improved my cardio, i also believe soccer is a dangerous sport that could actually be detrimental to my long term health, so when my soccer teams dissolved last year, I made no efforts to join a new team, instead choosing to focus on table tennis. In those whole 15 years of playing soccer, I never paid for coaching, joined any sort of soccer clinic. I was purely playing for fun. Yes it was an exercise, but it was purely for my own enjoyment. I was a pretty damn good soccer player too...running with people who used to COMPETE at the colligate level and I was holding my own.

There are plenty of people that have this same mind set for table tennis.

 

[Jslick89]

So what you are saying is that a player can be cosidered competing only if they play in a sanctioned USATT league tournament ? Did I say that ?
You said he competes PERID. Case closed. Maybe not awanting to be a 2000+ player but it is still "competing". Sorry.



You have completely twisted my words. I never ever said "competing" in a sanctioned tournament was unethical (in fact that the is only thing I highly recommed for all players . Dump your USATT or ITTF membership & play ONLY in so called "unsanctioned" tournaments.

What I said was that it is highly unethical to play in a league (ANY league) just for fun & not "compete" to the best of your abilities (using the lame excuse & fall behind that you are ONLY playing for fun)
I said this will skew any rating system sanctioned or unsanctioned.
If it is unsanctioned , this will screw up setting up the divisons for follwing week if this player had just played for fun and screwing around & did not play to the best of his abilities


If I use your defintion of competing then you are a piece of crap wanning to be 2000 hacker compared to a 2400 player or pro player.


Lose it (the mindset)

lol bro you are too much. I gave my definition of competing. You gave yours. Clearly we have different definitions. We are arguing SEMANTICS since we cannot agree on a definition of competing.

Maybe this would make it easier for you to understand. Take the game of chess. There are lots of people on the Lichess app who play the game for FUN. However, simply playing the game against others on the app will earn you an ELO rating.. However, many players, myself including are not "competing" (as defined by me) to be some exceptional professional chess player, even if we are putting our best effort to win the match. We simply enjoy the game.

Or take an AIR HOCKEY game at an arcade. You will play against your friends in this game. players score and there is ultimately a winner. Does simply playing the air hockey game make one a competitive air hockey player? In my definition, no, it does not, even if one tries their hardest to win the game.

Also, I never said that you said competing in sanctioned events for fun was unethical. Please go back and read my posts. I said it's not unethical to play in an unsanctioned league for fun. and trying to win the game.

Even the most competitive players might not be using their absolute best tactics at a league match...they might be trying to develop a new technique and they need to practice it in a match setting. That might result in a higher rated player losing to a lower rated player. Is that also unethical?

You throw these words around but I don't think you really understand what any of them mean. Furthermore, you have a serious problem with accepting that other people can and DO have different opinions than yours, and those different opinions are equally as valuable.

You can have the opinion that it is only possible for people to play for exercise or to play competitively. I believe I have explained well enough how it is entirely possible for humans to play games and sports just for fun. You don't have to respect my opinion, just as I do not believe your opinion has any merit. And in my humble opinion, you have also failed to defend your own position with anything other than name calling.

cheers.

 

[ander999]

Nope.
If you want to stop blindly trashing me eevry chance you get, read this thread with my discussions with jslick89
You may learn something.

Quite frankly you are wrong, but you are entitled to your bizarre opinion as I am mine. There is nothing to be learned from your posts.

 

[Richie]

A few of my friends and former teammates decided to not play league this season. We are only playing for fun. I've struggled with some injuries that has gotten worse with play. So I play only because I really enjoy and have fun hitting the ball on the table, it's pure fun for me and is the primary objective for sure. Some of the players who feel the same are 2400+ in level.

 

[NextLevel]

A few of my friends and former teammates decided to not play league this season. We are only playing for fun. I've struggled with some injuries that has gotten worse with play. So I play only because I really enjoy and have fun hitting the ball on the table, it's pure fun for me and is the primary objective for sure. Some of the players who feel the same are 2400+ in level.

For me it is clearly the primary objective, I am addicted to the sport. There is no real reward - it is all just fun. Some social mixing as well, but that is primarily fun too.

 

[blahness]

With the amount of anger that OP has, it's no wonder fun isn't in his dictionary!

 

[NextLevel]

NO .
You are a competitive player playing tournaments etc.
Fun is not your primary objective but a happy byproduct.

Fun is my primary objective - if it wasn't fun, I wouldn't do it. In fact, in many cases, I have just hit the ball without playing competitive matches because I enjoy hitting the ball. Competitive matches can heighten the senses, but very often, I play the way I want to play, not the way that would win the match. That's why it is about fun. If it was about winning, I would just put on some OX pips and learn to hit with them .

 

[ander999]

You are entitled to your opinions with no proof to back it up. You are unable to make a coherent post clearly defending your position. All you can do is follow me around & trash me with one line posts.

Because I’d rather not waste my time on a delusional person. Regardless of what I say it’ll go in from one ear and out the other.

 

[NextLevel]

No.
Your primary objective is competition as you play matches & tournaments
As I just posted in another post in this thread, everyome plays doubles or fun games to have fun.
But that does not make your primary objective fun.
But feel free to be in denial.

It is just fun/addiction. And I play doubles and fun games as well. Just not as many willing participants at the level I play and the movement demands in doubles are greater for someone as arthritic as myself. I play how I want to play. As I said, if I wanted to win. I would play with pips, probably ones that the opponents hated to face. I do so sometimes, but I don't find my beating my opponent using such material to be fun per se. I enjoy putting heavy topsoin on the ball because that is fun to me 🤣. Even when there is no score. I don't get the same high hitting with pips. And the high is whar keeps me playing despite all the physical issues. I also enjoy looping to frictioless pips to see how many I can loop n a row before being forced to push. The buildup of spin makes my high higher😜

 

[Richie]

Just because you decided not to play in a league this season does not make you a fun player . Sorry.
You are actually training for next season probably & see how it goes but do not want to admit it.
You are a competitive player.
The 2400+ players "fee;" wrong. They are competitive players.

Hey we all play doubles or play matches with modified rules or modified table parameter etc. Does that make us fun players ? I don't think so. We have retired professional or other players doing exhibitions for fun to promote teh sport. Does that make them fun players ? REALLY ?

No, this isn't true. And when I did play league it was just for fun as well, playing with a bunch of friends. I don't really enjoy competing. But I do enjoy hitting a table tennis ball on the table, no matter what circumstance and it's even more fun if done with friends or some nice teammates.

 

[NextLevel]

They ask what I do and who I do it for,
And all this other stuff up in the playing hall,
All I want for my birthday is a bat and a ball,
All I want for my birthday is a bat and a ball!

 

[NextLevel]

When I die, bury me inside the playing hall!
When I die, bury me inside the playing hall!
All I want for my birthday is a bat and a ball!!
All I want for my birthday is a bat and a ball!!

 

[ttarc]

Halls of pimples painted green
Topspin talking
Power wolves beset your door
Hear them smashing
Soon you′ll please their appetite
They devour
Hammer of booster crushes you
Overpower

The ultimate in vanity
Exploiting their supremacy
I can't believe the spins you play
I can't believe
I can't believe the price you pay

Nothing can save you
Long pips are lost
Long pips are raped
Long pips are gone
Pulling your strings
Long pips are done
Seeking no truth
Winning is all
Find it so grim
So true
So real

Sorry for rewriting this Metallica song by I couldn't resist

 

[JustANoob]

Mate, people in glass houses, your post are the fever dreams of someone who drank 16 cans of some energy drink then took sleeping pills, and the brain is looking for the most non-euclidean way to collapse in on itself.

 

[Der_Echte]

I have entered the Geezer age range, so I can freely talk about Geezers.

Yes, whether it is two LP BH Geezers going at it or two inverted ones, usually the match is difficult to watch.

One side has endless bumping of the ball with the BH chicken wing deluxe, one side has attacking error after attacking error.

Break out ur popcorn chicken folks.

Still, the crowd mentioned does not play to entertain people, they are playing and competing in the manner they like, so good on the Geezers.

In most clubs, if the Geezers do not sign up for membership and lessons, you do not have a club... particularly in countries like Korea.

Let Geezers play and play a lot.

 

[SofaChamp]

Stop your bull strawmen arguments. Having imagined dialogues with opinions no one is stating anywhere just to force your opinion on the Internet is tiring to read.

In future, please just list what you are annoyed about in clear, short sentences.

 

[NextLevel]

I have entered the Geezer age range, so I can freely talk about Geezers.

Yes, whether it is two LP BH Geezers going at it or two inverted ones, usually the match is difficult to watch.

One side has endless bumping of the ball with the BH chicken wing deluxe, one side has attacking error after attacking error.

Break out ur popcorn chicken folks.

Still, the crowd mentioned does not play to entertain people, they are playing and competing in the manner they like, so good on the Geezers.

In most clubs, if the Geezers do not sign up for membership and lessons, you do not have a club... particularly in countries like Korea.

Let Geezers play and play a lot.

I sent a French co-worker a video of Felix Lebrun. She said that she was happy for France but she had absolutely no clue what was going on and the action was too fast for her to follow.

Sometimes, we forget how subjective the beauty of sports is.

 

[blahness]

I sent a French co-worker a video of Felix Lebrun. She said that she was happy for France but she had absolutely no clue what was going on and the action was too fast for her to follow.

Sometimes, we forget how subjective the beauty of sports is.

What is not subjective is the power of $$$, which old ppl have way more compared to young ppl 🤣 any sport would be dumb to drive away the old ppl as they have a lot of disposable money!

 

[James Z]

Fair parameter values for long pips in the 40+ plastic ball ONLY eta​

Ok let me make this all simple for you.
Let us assume IOC will look the other way when players will continue to use dangerous spoosters & spin glues & continue violating Rule 2.4.7 & ITTF will not reduce the maximum allowed sponge thickness to 1.7 mm to lengthen the rallies by minimizing third ball attacks for better entertain at the pro level for spectators.

Assuming that, for the current 40+ plastic ball ONLY era, what would should be a fair maximum value for pips parameters below that would make at least a reasonably level & fair playing field for all players but more importantly, to promote (non-player) spectator interest in the sport

1. pip Length 2.0 mm and was never adjected to match to 40- celluloid ball in 2000 & then again the 40+ plastic ball in 2014
2. AR (Aspect Ratio) that was dropped from 1.3 to 1.1 in 1998
3. PDD (Pip Distribution Density) that was dropped from 50 pips per sq.cm to 30 in 2004 defenders (both blocking & chopping type) ?
4. friction value (That was increased in 2008) at least for age 40+ events if not for all age & youth events ?

Pip design parameters​

For this analysis, to keep it simple explain the effect of varying each parameter for me keeping all other parameters the same

However in reality the overall behavior of the pips is usually determined by a combination of 2 or 3 parameters which may be dominant. Or in some cases a single parameter may the most dominant. Another parameter (or few parameters) second dominant etc etc

Please also view the following in the context of the current 40+ plastic ball ONLY era & the 9 rule & regulations changes since 1983 by ITTF to partially or fully limit and reduce the capabilities of choppers & block defenders

1. Pip Height (aka pip length)
ITTF Rule 2.4.3.2 defines maximum pip length allowed as 2.0 mm
ITTF Tech Leaflet T4 Item B-2 sets minimum pip length at 1.0 mm
Longer pips can produce more spin, mostly back spin & side spin via spin amplification only (long pips cannot generate lot of spin on its own). Interestingly, the longer the pips, lesser the top spin produced.

The lower the pip length the higher the speed.,
The longer the pip, lower the speed

The biggest problem with pip length for long pips listed on ITTF LARC is that , though the ball size has increased from 38 mm to 40 mm, there was no corresponding increase in pip length needed to retain the same (back) spin
So in effect the ability to produce more spin (back spin & side spin) has been significantly reduced after 2000, when ball size was increased from 38 mm to 40- mm

Minimum pip length is mostly relevant for short pips rubbers because if you want the maximum speed you want the lowest pip length, Some well known short pips rubbers have been caught violating this lower limit.


2. Pip diameter (aka pip width)
ITTF Tech Leaflet T4 Item B-2 sets maximum pip diameter as 2.2 mm (measured at the top or tip)
ITTF Tech Leaflet T4 Item B-2 sets minimum pip diameter (measured at the tip of pips) at 1.0 mm
Most long pips are probably cylinderical with a few as trepezoidal cylinder (with diameter at top less than at the base) There seems to be no maximum value set at the base of the pips

The lower the diameter , the more the spin & lesser the speed
The higher the diameter, the lesser the spin & higher the speed.

With pip length limit set at 2.0 mm (actually 1.7 mm if you make allowance for base of rubber & glue)

So an aspect ratio of 1.3 (before 1999) & pip length of 1.7 mm gives a pip width of 1.7 divided by 1.3 = 1.31 mm

An aspect ratio of 1.1 (after 1998) & but same pip length of 1.7 mm gives a pip width of 1.7 divided by 1.1 = 1.55 mm and what this means is that , you get less back spin (since 1.55 mm is greater than 1.31 mm).

3. AR (Aspect Ratio) (Height divided by diameter)
Higher the AR , the more the back spin.
When ITTF reduced the AR from 1.3 to 1.1 in 1998, what really happened was that though since the maximum allowed pip height was still kept at the same at 2.0 mm, the drop in Aspect Ratio from 1.3 to 1.1 reduced the spin producing capability.
Pip diameter would be 2.0 divided by 1.3 = 1.538 mm before 1999
Pip diameter would be 2.0 divided by 1.1 = 1.818 mm after 1998
So an increase in minimum diameter required to keep the maximum allowed pip height at 2.0 mm causes a decrease ability to produce spin.
BTW the actual maximum possible pip height is only about 1.7 mm to 1.8 mm because the maximum allowed pip height includes the base of the rubber as well the glue

4. PDD (Pip Distribution Density)
Higher the PDD , higher the spin & lower the speed, higher the control
Lower the PDD , lower the spin & higher the speed , lesser the control.

ITTF lowered the PDD in 2004 from 50 pips per sq.cm down to 30 pips per sq.cm (a whopping 40% drop) to further reduce the back spin capabilities of defenders because ITTF concluded that the 1998 Durban Aspect Ratio Reduction Massacre & the 2000 introduction of the 40- ball was not doing the job enough. ITTF diverted the focus by misleading everyone that this only effect the top spin for player like Liu Guo Liang. Liu Guo Liang played along though by 2004 his career was over and he had his eye on the future (Head Coach of Men’s Team & now ITTF Deputy President LOL). Same story as 40- ball which ITTF claimed will slow the sport down for better TV viewing though they knew full well the manufacturers will come up with faster rackets in an year or two to return the speeds back to 38 ball levels & top spins as well with spin glues and now boosters both undergo near 0% chemical testing for harmful chemicals. This of course cleverly masked the real reason that defenders lost more backspin as there were no improved rackets for backspin players to this day, despite another devastating setback for defenders with the 40+ plastic ball in 2014 & the plastic ball ONLY ruling of 2022.

5. Pip flexibility / stiffness
Stiffer pips (as were traditional short pips) give less spin, more speed & less control.
More flexible pips (traditionally only with long pips) will in general give more spin, less speed, less control & more deception.

Neo Short pips (or fake short pips) designs are made to imitate short pips to behave like long pips by making them more flexible & to sell more rubber claiming that an amateur can get as much spin & variations just like Ding Song or Hou YingChao, though fact remains that these two were close to the top despite using short pips (instead of long pips) & not because of it as is the case with Mima Ito , who is not playing upto her full potential like Deng Yaping. These neo short pips are also known as social rubbers as opposed to functional rubbers, because lots of players (including a lot of Japanese pro players) use these rubbers more for social acceptance & not suffer the wrath & disapproval of from winged inverted (spoosted) loopers who control the ITTF & are also majority of players in tabletennis.


6. Pip top & side smoothness / roughness / friction
Smoother pip top & sides gives lesser spin & less control but more deception. The smoother (or glassy) the pips, the more frictionless is the rubber
Rougher pip top & sides gives more spin & more control & less deception.
There is a huge myth that the opposite is true mostly because of Tibhar Grass Dec & its success across the board. Yes Dtec can give more spin regardless of smooth top but it definitely is NOT due to glassy pip tops but is more due to other pips design parameters such as pips being more flexible almost as much as the TSP P1 Curl (the given excuse by ITTF for 1998 Durban Aspect Ratio Reduction Massacre) & pip material also probably similar to TSP P1 Curl. And its pips alignment is also horizontal , which is a chopper design & not a blocking design & this is why Dtec is more of an all round rubber & neither blocking nor chopping though it works much better blocking mode than in chopping mode & Giant Dragon’s Dragon Talon is almost identical.
You can understand this better if you compare the gally pip top to a glassy anti rubber. A glassy rubber will give the least spin & most deception. Same with a glassy pip top long pip.
Compare this to the banned Butter Feint Long Classic (probably the greatest chopper rubber of all time used by almost all choppers before ITTF in its infinite wisdom banned it using TSP P1 Curl as an excuse with the 1998 Durban Aspect Ratio Reduction massacre…..this is why it is names “massacre”) or even the Feint Long 2 which was useless in the 40- celluloid era or the Feint Long 3 which are totally useless in the 40+ plastic ball ONLY era.
What do these 3 rubbers (Feint Long Classic , 2 & 3) have in common ? They have rougher pip tops & relatively slightly stiffer pips compared to Tibhar Dtec resulting in more control & more backspin & less deception & this is exactly why all the top choppers use Feint Long 3 & blockers use Dtec. These highest level choppers use Feint Long 5 for more control & more backspin & therefore definitely not for more deception or think they can trick the likes of Waldner or Ma Long with more deception. Sure the real GOAT of all of tabletennis Joo Sae Hyuk did try Dtec & Curl P1R in desperation (after first using Feint Long 3 very early on including his finals loss at Paris WITTC 2003 ) without seemingly not understanding the real reason for losing so many close matches at the highest level , which is lowered Aspect Ratio & PDD & pip length not increasing for the 40 ball.

So the myth that frictionless pips such as Dtec gives more spin than Feint Long is pure nonsense

7. Geometric shape of the pips
Most pips seem cylindrical but there had been some designs with lower diameter at the base than top or mushroom pips to increase deception. In this context , strangely the most successful rubber at pro highest levels was in the 38 ball era & was a medium pips rubber made by Butterfly called Magnitude, which had smaller diameter pips sitting on top of larger diameter pips at the base Was used by both at the table all round hitters & also by all round choppers. Butterfly Magnitude rubber’s classification seems to have changed so many times on ITTF LARC. First it was Long , then out (short) then long again& now out again on July 2023 LARC LOL. Yung 63-9A was a mushroom pips design rubber supposedly used by Deng Yaping before her switching to RITC 755

8. Pip alignment
Horizontal pips alignment is generally from away from the table choppers
Vertical pips alignment is generally for close to the table blockers

9. Material content (chemical composition) of the rubber
This can affect the stiffness or flexibility of the pips

10. Base thickness
Thicker base gives slightly more speed & less spin

11. Sponge hardness
Harder sponge will give more speed and less spin
Softer sponge will give lesser speed and more spin

12. Sponge thickness
Thicker sponge will give more speed and less spin
Thiner sponge will give lesser speed and more spin

13. Blade composition
Blade composition can significantly impact racket behavior but this is a huge subject in itself to be explored here

14. Illegal spoosting / spin gluing (of the sponge)
Illegal spoosting / spin gluing (of the sponge) will slightly increase spin & speed
Note :- spoosting = spin boosting

15. Unapproved treatment of pips
Primarily used to increase deception. Not recommended since you can always find a good non-treated equivalent.

16. OX vs sponge
OX sponge gives lot more variation & more control for players below about rating of 2200. Players above 2200 need thicker sponge to prevent the ball from getting into the wood and shooting off due to the much heavier incoming (spoosted) top spins. If you are a player below 2200 , you are really defeating the very purpose of using long pips if you are using sponge because the sponge significantly offsets the advantages of long pips even if you are using the perfect blade. On the other hand for players at above 2200 level, not using sponge may not only result in loss of backspin but also loss of points with balls shooting off the wood.

17. Ball size
Increase in ball size has decreased both spin & speed for long pips users speeds and spins have been returned to 38 mm ball levels for attacking spinny inverted users two or three years after 2003

18. Ball material (Chemical composition)
Plastic ball can produce less (back) spin for long pips users (there is no corresponding or offsetting decrease on the top spin end of the spin continuum however)

19. Anything I missed