Limba, Hinoki, Ayous or Koto?

Can anyone tell me these things?
Which one is stiffer or flexier? (That is how well the ball ‘sinks’ in to the blade.)
Which one is harder? (Just which one is harder, NOT the same as stiffness.)
Speed level of these wood types compared.
Control level of these wood types compared.
Spin/Ease to get spin level of these wood types.

And finally, which of these types would be best for SPINNY (not speedy) loop style.
You can write for example: An all limba blade etc, or like 2 hinoki plies, then ayous. Or something like that.

Highly appreciated!
 
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Hinoki has unique feeling soft feeling-it's not like limba, maybe if limba and ayous were mixed? but there's something about it that has that X factor.

Limba is good for spinning, the dyed ones are usually stiffer.

Koto is nice and crispy.

Ayous is very flexible in my opinion.

These are broad generalizations that I have observed, it's difficult to think about composition when you should really be focused on drills/matches. This is also not to say that one can't be spinny, or that the other can't be flexible... Again just some generalizations.

Experimental Air: different rubbers on the blades that I have tried, and also different blade composition- inner carbon, outer carbon, all wood...

Personal Opinion: Ayous probably spins the most, or maybe hinoki 🤔. Ayous is less stable but very flexible. Ayous 5ply will have a lot of speed and spin, but hard to control in my opinion.

Hinoki is probably something that you have to try to really understand, it has the flexibility of ayous but has stability. Limba is the compromise between Ayous and Koto. It has less dwell time than ayous but is more stable that ayous.

Koto has snappier feel, it is also a unique feeling. Shots are more direct with Koto as with the others it's more of an arc.

I think dyed/stained limba and koto are the easiest to control but are generally stiffer.
 
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But I have to say, I don't really understand the big fuss around Koto-outer ALC blades. They are overall very good, but I feel they are actually slower and less spinny and worse control than the DHS Limba-inner ALC blades.

I don't know why most of the top pros are still using the Koto style blade. Many of the CNT players seem to be switching over to Limba-InnerALC blades, but why haven't more of the top pros from other countries switched over?
 
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But I have to say, I don't really understand the big fuss around Koto-outer ALC blades. They are overall very good, but I feel they are actually slower and less spinny and worse control than the DHS Limba-inner ALC blades.

I don't know why most of the top pros are still using the Koto style blade. Many of the CNT players seem to be switching over to Limba-InnerALC blades, but why haven't more of the top pros from other countries switched over?
Most still use viscaria. The big names have switched because they signed a contract with DHS.

I have to disagree with koto outer alc being slower than inner alc...

composition wise that just doesn't make sense.

Low gear to high gear is more noticeable with innerforce style blade, while outer alc is a easier to spin with and use.

 
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Well I dont know if slower is the right phrasing, but Viscaria variants seem to me to have less gears than HL5 variants. For top pros, unleashing the highest gears of HL5 should be easy tnough.
 
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Well I dont know if slower is the right phrasing, but Viscaria variants seem to me to have less gears than HL5 variants. For top pros, unleashing the highest gears of HL5 should be easy tnough.

Gotcha. I think innerfprce composition still has a lot of all wood properties, but it's the higher end power that is the main selling point. It's not as easy to use as viscaria in my opinion, where everything feels and seems like it's a lot easier to do (offensively speaking)

 
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But I have to say, I don't really understand the big fuss around Koto-outer ALC blades. They are overall very good, but I feel they are actually slower and less spinny and worse control than the DHS Limba-inner ALC blades.

I don't know why most of the top pros are still using the Koto style blade. Many of the CNT players seem to be switching over to Limba-InnerALC blades, but why haven't more of the top pros from other countries switched over?

Trying to figure out why higher level players like things that you cannot feel....if you don't have the touch, the feeling or the technique to understand it.....then it will be hard to understand it.

 
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Trying to figure out why higher level players like things that you cannot feel....if you don't have the touch, the feeling or the technique to understand it.....then it will be hard to understand it.

Sure, it would be really interesting to hear TB or FZD compare their Koto blade vs a HL5 and explain why they feel the Koto blade is better for their game overall. As you said, from where I am sitting, I wouldn't be able to understand it well.

I don't know if any commentary like that is out there?

 
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Sure, it would be really interesting to hear TB or FZD compare their Koto blade vs a HL5 and explain why they feel the Koto blade is better for their game overall. As you said, from where I am sitting, I wouldn't be able to understand it well.

I don't know if any commentary like that is out there?

To me it just looks right to see FZD on a viscaria. Something about it just seems perfect for him. Maybe my brain has wired itself to associate an aggressive playstyle to viscaria or fan zhendong...

 
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Yeah, obviously FZD uses the banana flick on 70% of his returns, so rebound of the Viscaria maybe suits that stroke very well. But he also has the most powerful, devastating forehand loop-kills in the game. So that stroke would seem to favor the HL5. And I don't think HL5 is bad for banana flick.

So, I would want to hear why he feels VIS is better for his own game.
 
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Gotcha. I think innerfprce composition still has a lot of all wood properties, but it's the higher end power that is the main selling point. It's not as easy to use as viscaria in my opinion, where everything feels and seems like it's a lot easier to do (offensively speaking)

I have a question here. Pls do allow me to ask. Do you mean outer carbon blades esp alc blades like viscaria,etc is easier to use compare to inner carbon blades like innerforce alc/long 5 and so on? if it is so, may I know why.And for someone who's new to carbon or someone who is transisting from an all wood blade which carbon blades are 1. easier to use for them/ easier for them to adapt2. better for them IYO (this could be objective tho)either outer carbon or inner carbon blades.I’m an amateur and I play tt for fun as a hobbist but love it deeply. I'd love to hear from other players from the group as well. Different opinions and perspectives are welcome🙌Thank you in advance.

 
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I don't think higher level players who have something that they use and like really think about messing with equipment. They have something that works for them and they usually stick with that.

FZD has been using a Viscaria since he is pretty young. Timo Boll has been using a TB ALC since at least 2009 and before that he used a TB Spirit which is the same blade with a different handle. ZJK used Viscaria his whole career. Those are three spin oriented touch players who like blades with a hard top ply. That depends on how you touch the ball. And if you use a blade like that, you get used to how you touch the ball for a Koto top ply.

Ma Long grew up using a Nittaku Acoustic (Limba-Limba), like his W968 blade but without the inner layer of carbon. He switched to TB Spirit and then TB ALC and did not seem to like either and then he went on a year of searching (all blades with a limba top ply) till he settled on the W968 blade he uses and he has not changed since.

Different players with different touch will like different things.

My blade is soft: (Limba-Limba-Ayous-Limba-Limba). When my friends who like harder blades try it, they instantly say, "too soft". You get used to what you use and you develop your technique around what you use. The truth of the matter is, the most important part of TT technique is you, your stroke, how fast your racket is moving on contact, and the subtle details of how you touch the ball. There are different ways of doing this.

There is a reason why some players go crazy over how Hinoki feels and others don't like Hinoki at all. I love Hinoki even though I don't use it and find, for me, what I use is more versatile. But Hinoki, for me, feels amazing when looping. Nothing feels as good for spinning the ball. Nothing grabs the ball as hard as Hinoki. But Limba does other things well. And if I play with a blade with Koto as the top ply for a few weeks, my technique adjusts to get what I need out of Koto.

So, the stuff you are trying to understand, I think a lot of it is wasting your time. You should focus on practice, improving your technique and training things like footwork, stroke mechanics, game tactics......the equipment is a very small part of it. Reading the game while playing is much more important.
 
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Can anyone tell me these things?
Which one is stiffer or flexier? (That is how well the ball ‘sinks’ in to the blade.)
Which one is harder? (Just which one is harder, NOT the same as stiffness.)
Speed level of these wood types compared.
Control level of these wood types compared.
Spin/Ease to get spin level of these wood types.

And finally, which of these types would be best for SPINNY (not speedy) loop style.
You can write for example: An all limba blade etc, or like 2 hinoki plies, then ayous. Or something like that.

Highly appreciated!

I believe that you will find this guide very helpful. It explains the properties of each wood type.

TT Blades Database - Glossary of materials used for table tennis blades (stervinou.net)

 
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I have a question here. Pls do allow me to ask. Do you mean outer carbon blades esp alc blades like viscaria,etc is easier to use compare to inner carbon blades like innerforce alc/long 5 and so on? if it is so, may I know why.And for someone who's new to carbon or someone who is transisting from an all wood blade which carbon blades are 1. easier to use for them/ easier for them to adapt2. better for them IYO (this could be objective tho)either outer carbon or inner carbon blades.I’m an amateur and I play tt for fun as a hobbist but love it deeply. I'd love to hear from other players from the group as well. Different opinions and perspectives are welcome🙌Thank you in advance.


Inner is more like an all wood blade with more speed potential on the top end. Noticeable speed boost when you get the carbon to activate.

Outer is a lot more fun to use in my opinion. Since the
carbon layer is right next to the top ply it’s easier to activate and use carbon’s benefit.

outer carbon is naturally faster. To me, I feel that it’s easier to use, but has less dwell. It’s more direct, and it’s an easier access to the top end. The hand feel is solid and it feels good. I feel like with outer (viscaria) I didn’t have to try super hard to spin or send the ball quickly.

inner carbon is more like a 5-ply, with more control and more arc. Once you activate the carbon, the speed is about the same as an outer carbon. Activating the carbon usually requires a hard swing. Hand feel can feel strange because of the carbon layer is muted.

if you want an all wood feeling, get inner carbon.
If you want a typical carbon experience get outer.

 
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