Should I "upgrade" my all-wood 5-ply Kiso Hinoki?

[ec_creep]

Hi,

I've been playing with a Yinhe Kiso Hinoki 5, a 5-ply (supposedly) Kiso Hinoki blade for a couple of months now, and I'm beginning to love how it behaves. Previously, I played with a Butterfly Jonyer H-II for about 5 years, an all-wood Hinoki-Cypress (?) combo of some sort. The Jonyer felt more linear, took a couple of weeks for me to adjust, but the feel on the Yinhe Kiso is excellent, slightly softer, with that Kiso Hinoki characteristics I've been reading about.

I love this all-wood Kiso Hinoki, it only cost me about USD45.

Reading around, I've been tempted to get a Darker Hinoki, either the 7p-2a or the 7p-2a carbon. I really want to see with my very own eyes what kind of a quality blade it is, and what a high quality Kiso Hinoki would actually feel. The carbon on the 7p-2a carbon, since it's placed next to the inner core, it wouldn't make the blade too stiff, right?

So, my question would be. Which one should I get, and/or should I even get another Hinoki (multi-ply Hinoki)? Darker 7p-2a, Darker 7p-2a carbon, Nittaku Hino Blade 7.22, or Nittaku Hino Blade 5.22? I prefer a slight flex to average stiffness with a soft to medium soft, and a bare wood handle.

Thanks

 

[ck1407]

J-Tech

You can take a look at this or nittaku septear (which probably has many reviews for your reference)

 

[Gozo Aruna]

Five ply ====> Seven ply. It is natural.

 

[ec_creep]

J-Tech

You can take a look at this or nittaku septear (which probably has many reviews for your reference)

Thanks, couldn't find one here in my country... Though I kinda do want a natural wood colored handle, and if I really couldn't find one to my liking, the septear feel is in the top of my list.

Five ply ====> Seven ply. It is natural.

Yeah, have been reading plenty of threads on that one. Couldn't really find a 5ply all wood hinoki over here, other than the yinhe I got.

I managed to get a deal on that Darker 7p-2a carbon, at USD122. After reading the reviews again on rev*pin, I'm kinda leaning towards it at the moment...

 

[ck1407]

Review: Two Darker Blades

Introduction On this occasion, I was given the opportunity to evaluate two blades from the Japanese brand Darker, i.e., the oddly named Darker 7P-2A.7t and the Darker Esteem. Going into this test, I had only minimal knowledge of this brand. Darker specializes in premium quality Kiso Hinoki...

blog.tabletennis11.com

If you need more reference

 

[Gozo Aruna]

actually I have not come across a five ply kiso hinoki blade. Is there such a product in the market? Seven ply yes, five ply yet to come across.

 

[Manto76]

VODAK Hinoki Jiří Vráblík Off EnTech​

VODAK Hinoki Jiří Vráblík Off EnTech

Hinoki J. Vráblík is a new original wood developed in cooperation with the Czech Republic 2021 champion. The wood is 5-ply with American Hinoki top veneers and is suitable for versatile offensive play full of topspin, counterspin and surprising transitions from technical play to aggressive play...

vodak-dreva.cz

 

[Manto76]

VODAK Hinoki Off-

VODAK Hinoki Off-

Description of wood VODAK Hinoki Off- is a slightly more flexible 7-layer universally offensive all-wood with above-standard feel and control in all strokes.The wood is especially suitable for technical topspiners who prefer a topspin and a certain block to an aggressive game. With harder...

vodak-dreva.cz

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

If what you have is working, you may as well stick with it.

What happened to the Jonyer H? That is an excellent 5 ply hinoki blade.

I have to say, I love the feel of Hinoki when it is JUST Hinoki. Every blade I have felt that had Hinoki and a composite layer was crazy fast. The Darker 7p-2A,7t is as fast as many Outer Carbon ALC blades like the Viscaria without any composite layer. But, often, the composite layer makes the Hinoki lose some of that amazing feel of how it grabs the ball and helps you spin.

It may be worth trying the 7p-2A Carbon. But you may also want to try the 7p-2A and the 7p-2A.7t so you can see which you like better.

With the carbon right next to the core instead of being next to the top ply it could be different. But my experience is, if you mix anything else with Hinoki, you lose a lot of what makes Hinoki feel so amazing.

 

[S-Pin]

Same story here actually.

I avoided hinoki for a long time due to its' fabled bounciness, then tried Sanwei HC-5S last month and was surprised by control in the short game, loads of spin and most of all excellent touch with this hinoki carbon blade. It is not an ideal blade and has demerits, but I was impressed by the feel.

So much so I bought one - and soon later two more hinoki carbon blades. Received it this morning: Darker 7P-2A.Carbon and - as a reference point - Joola Rossi Emotion. All 3 rackets have Rakza Z on both sides.

Haven't had a chance to play yet, the rubbers are new, sticky and need bedding in, but nevertheless here are my first impressions after bouncing the ball, sniffing the handles and hitting against the wall (the ball, not the rackets). So I haven't read the book, only saw the cover, but I'll tell you what it's about :

7P2A.C is really soft, stiff, solid, grippy as hell and has a ridiculously long dwell with brand new RZ. It grabs the ball and doesn't want to give it back. (Welcome to the real hinoki world, I guess). Don't know yet how does carbon kick in with harder shots and how hard it is, but with softer touches it feels like all wood. Hinoki wood. I guess flat hits should be ok with this blade. With 7P-2A.C I really can't say yet how fast it is, but initially it doesn't feel like a fast blade in short game. So the overall feeling is very unusual and I guess the blade needs time to get used to. But something tells me this blade will be fun to play.

JRE feels harder, more flexy, less dwelly, less bouncy, probably faster, well balanced overall and let's say much more "normal". The initial feel is excellent for a carbon blade, albeit I guess the carbon layer kicks in sooner here. It feels like this blade is easy to switch to, easy to play with and doesn't require much adjustment. But regarding the feel I will classify it as a semi-hinoki.

HC-5S is somewhere in the middle, it is not as soft, stiff and dwelly as Darker, but softer than JRE, with more pronounced hinoki character and a rather special feeling of, shall I say, "crispy softness", that doesn't get mushy. HC-5S has similar structure to JRE (hinoki-koto-carbon-ayos), but employs soft carbon rather than 3Kc, and it gives it a wonderful touch. It's not a vey fast blade by all means, but fast enough for an intermediate player.

If pressed against the wall to play a competitive match with one of these blades today, I would have definitely chosen JRE.

Take it all with a pinch of salt, I might change some of my conclusions after I actually play with these rackets

All 3 blades are very well made, handles are similar and I like all three, good size, no problems here at all, Sanwei and Darker are just a bit rounder than JRE and more polished, especially Darker. Strangely the most expensive blade needs the wings to be sanded unlike the other two. You might have also noticed that my 7P-A2.C has a new better looking label (compared to that blue one).

And all kudos to the modest Sanwei blade which, in terms of touch, feel and craftsmanship, holds its' own against the blades that are 3 and 6 times more expensive.

 

[TackyForehand]

No need to get another hinoki blade. They all feel about the same and are subpar compared to a thick 1 ply. The only reason to get another one is to change the speed of the blade if you feel your current one is too fast or slow.

If you really need to scratch that itch, then borrow someone's to try.

 

[Haraold]

I Have a BTY Kiso Hinoki 5,there is also a 7 ply model iirc

 

[Loop Lob Smash]

Same story here actually.

I avoided hinoki for a long time due to its' fabled bounciness, then tried Sanwei HC-5S last month and was surprised by control in the short game, loads of spin and most of all excellent touch with this hinoki carbon blade. It is not an ideal blade and has demerits, but I was impressed by the feel.

So much so I bought one - and soon later two more hinoki carbon blades. Received it this morning: Darker 7P-2A.Carbon and - as a reference point - Joola Rossi Emotion. All 3 rackets have Rakza Z on both sides.

Haven't had a chance to play yet, the rubbers are new, sticky and need bedding in, but nevertheless here are my first impressions after bouncing the ball, sniffing the handles and hitting against the wall (the ball, not the rackets). So I haven't read the book, only saw the cover, but I'll tell you what it's about :

7P2A.C is really soft, stiff, solid, grippy as hell and has a ridiculously long dwell with brand new RZ. It grabs the ball and doesn't want to give it back. (Welcome to the real hinoki world, I guess). Don't know yet how does carbon kick in with harder shots and how hard it is, but with softer touches it feels like all wood. Hinoki wood. I guess flat hits should be ok with this blade. With 7P-2A.C I really can't say yet how fast it is, but initially it doesn't feel like a fast blade in short game. So the overall feeling is very unusual and I guess the blade needs time to get used to. But something tells me this blade will be fun to play.

JRE feels harder, more flexy, less dwelly, less bouncy, probably faster, well balanced overall and let's say much more "normal". The initial feel is excellent for a carbon blade, albeit I guess the carbon layer kicks in sooner here. It feels like this blade is easy to switch to, easy to play with and doesn't require much adjustment. But regarding the feel I will classify it as a semi-hinoki.

HC-5S is somewhere in the middle, it is not as soft, stiff and dwelly as Darker, but softer than JRE, with more pronounced hinoki character and a rather special feeling of, shall I say, "crispy softness", that doesn't get mushy. HC-5S has similar structure to JRE (hinoki-koto-carbon-ayos), but employs soft carbon rather than 3Kc, and it gives it a wonderful touch. It's not a vey fast blade by all means, but fast enough for an intermediate player.

If pressed against the wall to play a competitive match with one of these blades today, I would have definitely chosen JRE.

Take it all with a pinch of salt, I might change some of my conclusions after I actually play with these rackets

All 3 blades are very well made, handles are similar and I like all three, good size, no problems here at all, Sanwei and Darker are just a bit rounder than JRE and more polished, especially Darker. Strangely the most expensive blade needs the wings to be sanded unlike the other two. You might have also noticed that my 7P-A2.C has a new better looking label (compared to that blue one).

And all kudos to the modest Sanwei blade which, in terms of touch, feel and craftsmanship, holds its' own against the blades that are 3 and 6 times more expensive.

View attachment 27987

Yep, there are good reasons why many people report that they like JRE (my son now plays with mine, but I like to hit with it occasionally).
Be interested on hearing a further update after trying your new blades in anger.
Cheers, LLS

 

[MK73]

I have changed from Darker 5P-2A to 7P Carbon because the 7PC is much better for my backhand, it has a larger sweet spot and a better stability. If the OP has a similar problem a change might help.

The 7PC is an offensive blade, but by no means as crazy fast as for example Hinoki-Carbon-Kiri blades (Butterfly Almutart). It’s lower end of off. It is also, I think because of the carbon, less bouncy than pure hinoki blades. I don’t know why, but that’s my experience with this blade. The soft touch and the dwell is even better than the 5P. The feeling of this blade is addictive, at least for me.

Carl, you always recommend the 7t. I would object, because this blade is really bouncy and only for loopers who prefer to play from far behind the table and need a lot of power and a long high throw. 7PC is much more middle of the road.

 

[MK73]

So, my question would be. Which one should I get, and/or should I even get another Hinoki (multi-ply Hinoki)? Darker 7p-2a, Darker 7p-2a carbon, Nittaku Hino Blade 7.22, or Nittaku Hino Blade 5.22? I prefer a slight flex to average stiffness with a soft to medium soft, and a bare wood handle.

Thanks

Here are my 2 cents.

You won’t have flex with hinoki blades. Only thinner 5plies have flex or thinner composite blades like Long 5 etc. The simple reason for that is that Hinoki blades are normally really thick. Most of the Darker Hinoki 2A-series blades for example are 6.5 mm thick, the 7t is 7mm. So flex is not what you will find.

7P-2A would only be a very slight upgrade, because it is fairly slow (All+/Off-). I don’t think it would be worth the money.

If you need more speed, 7P Carbon could be better. It’s is soft, very spinny and has a lot of control. The inner carbon construction helps when you smash, block and punch. It has no flex. It has a lot of dwell instead.

The Darker Esteem has the same properties and the same speed, but feels crisper because of the outer carbon construction. It only has a hinoki top ply, but still feels very hinoki-ish. It has less dwell that the 7PC, is much lighter (less than 80g) and has a slightly smaller head size.

Darker Hinoki blades always have simple, very beautiful Hinoki handles.

 

[MK73]

actually I have not come across a five ply kiso hinoki blade. Is there such a product in the market? Seven ply yes, five ply yet to come across.

There is a dealer in the UK that sells five ply hinoki blades.

Nexy had the Tamar series with Tamar V, VII and IX. But they have been discontinued a long time ago.

 

[ec_creep]

Review: Two Darker Blades

Introduction On this occasion, I was given the opportunity to evaluate two blades from the Japanese brand Darker, i.e., the oddly named Darker 7P-2A.7t and the Darker Esteem. Going into this test, I had only minimal knowledge of this brand. Darker specializes in premium quality Kiso Hinoki...

blog.tabletennis11.com

If you need more reference

Thx, already read that a while back. I've read pretty much read all the 7p-2a's article I could find. As well as Darker related, and Kiso Hinoki related...plenty more

actually I have not come across a five ply kiso hinoki blade. Is there such a product in the market? Seven ply yes, five ply yet to come across.

Yep, Yinhe makes one, Yinhe Kiso 5, 7, and 9. I can still find them new on the local market. They cost about USD43 here. A pretty good blade for its price, My 5-ply weighs at 74gram, very light.

If what you have is working, you may as well stick with it.

What happened to the Jonyer H? That is an excellent 5 ply hinoki blade.

I have to say, I love the feel of Hinoki when it is JUST Hinoki. Every blade I have felt that had Hinoki and a composite layer was crazy fast. The Darker 7p-2A,7t is as fast as many Outer Carbon ALC blades like the Viscaria without any composite layer. But, often, the composite layer makes the Hinoki lose some of that amazing feel of how it grabs the ball and helps you spin.

It may be worth trying the 7p-2A Carbon. But you may also want to try the 7p-2A and the 7p-2A.7t so you can see which you like better.

With the carbon right next to the core instead of being next to the top ply it could be different. But my experience is, if you mix anything else with Hinoki, you lose a lot of what makes Hinoki feel so amazing.

The Jonyer H-II is indeed a pretty good all-around blade, but I wanted to experience a full hinoki blade (I believe it's a mix of cypress with hinoki top ply), hence I bought the Yinhe Kiso 5. They do differ in characteristics, the Yinhe feels softer, less bouncy (controlling it is pretty much about how long my follow-through is and how fast my strokes are). It also feels as if it's made of one ply, it feels "full," if that's understandable. I'm liking the Yinhe Kiso a bit more, which led me to wanting a better quality all Kiso blade, since the Yinhe is of mediocre quality.

I did read a good bunch of your posts regarding this. A 5 ply all hinoki would be best, if still remember correctly, but couldn't find a better quality manufacturer than Yinhe. As well as how any composite would not feel the same as an all-Kiso blade, and how nothin beats a one-ply Kiso yet it's prone to splitting in half.

The only all Kiso blades I could find locally are the 7p-2a, 7-a carbon, and the septears, I'm leaning towards Darker blades, since I haven't seen one myself, very much intrigued by their quality (as often spoken in the threads I've read about).

It's just that I feel like at a mere USD122 for a brand new 7p-2a carbon, that's a really great deal that I shouldn't pass easily. Though I might just be better off with the regular 7p-2a (USD 97 here). On the other hand, I do feel like I may need a faster blade, since the Jonyer H-II seems like a tad faster than the Yinhe Kiso 5 (it's 6g heavier).



I ended up getting the 7p-2a carbon, it was a great price that I couldn't pass...

 

[ec_creep]

Same story here actually.

I avoided hinoki for a long time due to its' fabled bounciness, then tried Sanwei HC-5S last month and was surprised by control in the short game, loads of spin and most of all excellent touch with this hinoki carbon blade. It is not an ideal blade and has demerits, but I was impressed by the feel.

So much so I bought one - and soon later two more hinoki carbon blades. Received it this morning: Darker 7P-2A.Carbon and - as a reference point - Joola Rossi Emotion. All 3 rackets have Rakza Z on both sides.

Haven't had a chance to play yet, the rubbers are new, sticky and need bedding in, but nevertheless here are my first impressions after bouncing the ball, sniffing the handles and hitting against the wall (the ball, not the rackets). So I haven't read the book, only saw the cover, but I'll tell you what it's about :

7P2A.C is really soft, stiff, solid, grippy as hell and has a ridiculously long dwell with brand new RZ. It grabs the ball and doesn't want to give it back. (Welcome to the real hinoki world, I guess). Don't know yet how does carbon kick in with harder shots and how hard it is, but with softer touches it feels like all wood. Hinoki wood. I guess flat hits should be ok with this blade. With 7P-2A.C I really can't say yet how fast it is, but initially it doesn't feel like a fast blade in short game. So the overall feeling is very unusual and I guess the blade needs time to get used to. But something tells me this blade will be fun to play.

JRE feels harder, more flexy, less dwelly, less bouncy, probably faster, well balanced overall and let's say much more "normal". The initial feel is excellent for a carbon blade, albeit I guess the carbon layer kicks in sooner here. It feels like this blade is easy to switch to, easy to play with and doesn't require much adjustment. But regarding the feel I will classify it as a semi-hinoki.

HC-5S is somewhere in the middle, it is not as soft, stiff and dwelly as Darker, but softer than JRE, with more pronounced hinoki character and a rather special feeling of, shall I say, "crispy softness", that doesn't get mushy. HC-5S has similar structure to JRE (hinoki-koto-carbon-ayos), but employs soft carbon rather than 3Kc, and it gives it a wonderful touch. It's not a vey fast blade by all means, but fast enough for an intermediate player.

If pressed against the wall to play a competitive match with one of these blades today, I would have definitely chosen JRE.

Take it all with a pinch of salt, I might change some of my conclusions after I actually play with these rackets

All 3 blades are very well made, handles are similar and I like all three, good size, no problems here at all, Sanwei and Darker are just a bit rounder than JRE and more polished, especially Darker. Strangely the most expensive blade needs the wings to be sanded unlike the other two. You might have also noticed that my 7P-A2.C has a new better looking label (compared to that blue one).

And all kudos to the modest Sanwei blade which, in terms of touch, feel and craftsmanship, holds its' own against the blades that are 3 and 6 times more expensive.

View attachment 27987

Very nice review...

The HC-5s looks very similar to Yinhe Kiso 5. I've had to clean the handle everyday, trying to keep it clean. I didn't varnish it, previously, on my Jonyer H-II, the lacquer yellowed after 5 years (my mistake for choosing the wrong varnish, it said acrylic-based spray paint, but looking at the result after 5 years, it might've been nitrocellulose). I'had been applying oil on the Yinhe, a drying oil I extracted and processed myself (it won't yellow as much as linseed), it's just that I should've waited 3 days for it to cure properly, but I couldn't help not playing with it.
I'm moving on to an oil-based varnish now, a satin one, feels pretty good, not too slippery.



Anyways, I managed to play for half an hour with the 7p-2a carbon, and this thing feels so soft, very spinny. I can't really say much further than that till I get to play more with it, it's a different beast. The build quality is excellent. Mine still has the old label though, the core is almost half as thick as the outer plies.

 

[ec_creep]

No need to get another hinoki blade. They all feel about the same and are subpar compared to a thick 1 ply. The only reason to get another one is to change the speed of the blade if you feel your current one is too fast or slow.

If you really need to scratch that itch, then borrow someone's to try.

Yeah... That itch...came along after reading these posts on Darker's quality. Now I can see what's all the fuss is all about.

I Have a BTY Kiso Hinoki 5,there is also a 7 ply model iirc

I could only find a couple selling the BTY Kiso Hinoki 7 here, used, with dents and splinters, as expensive as a new 7p-2a, about USD97, too expensive imho. They both looked very similar to the Yinhe ones.

I have changed from Darker 5P-2A to 7P Carbon because the 7PC is much better for my backhand, it has a larger sweet spot and a better stability. If the OP has a similar problem a change might help.

The 7PC is an offensive blade, but by no means as crazy fast as for example Hinoki-Carbon-Kiri blades (Butterfly Almutart). It’s lower end of off. It is also, I think because of the carbon, less bouncy than pure hinoki blades. I don’t know why, but that’s my experience with this blade. The soft touch and the dwell is even better than the 5P. The feeling of this blade is addictive, at least for me.

Carl, you always recommend the 7t. I would object, because this blade is really bouncy and only for loopers who prefer to play from far behind the table and need a lot of power and a long high throw. 7PC is much more middle of the road.

Here are my 2 cents.

You won’t have flex with hinoki blades. Only thinner 5plies have flex or thinner composite blades like Long 5 etc. The simple reason for that is that Hinoki blades are normally really thick. Most of the Darker Hinoki 2A-series blades for example are 6.5 mm thick, the 7t is 7mm. So flex is not what you will find.

7P-2A would only be a very slight upgrade, because it is fairly slow (All+/Off-). I don’t think it would be worth the money.

If you need more speed, 7P Carbon could be better. It’s is soft, very spinny and has a lot of control. The inner carbon construction helps when you smash, block and punch. It has no flex. It has a lot of dwell instead.

The Darker Esteem has the same properties and the same speed, but feels crisper because of the outer carbon construction. It only has a hinoki top ply, but still feels very hinoki-ish. It has less dwell that the 7PC, is much lighter (less than 80g) and has a slightly smaller head size.

Darker Hinoki blades always have simple, very beautiful Hinoki handles.

Changing blades, at least from Jonyer H-II to Yinhe Kiso 5, I have no problem with my BH, it's even more precise and spinnier. It was the FH that I had problems with in the beginning.


Yep, one of the things I considered was that switching from a 5 ply all Kiso to a 7 ply all Kiso (7p-2a) might not be a better idea than to change from all wood to composite (an inner carbon that is). Though one very good reasoning is that I would be upgrading the quality from Yinhe to Darker. So far, the quality of Darker doesn't disappoint. During the half an hour I got to play with 7p-2a carbon, yeah, I also felt like it's less bouncy at times. It doesn't feel more stiff than the Yinhe Kiso 5, noticably far softer, not way faster just a tad. And once again, my BH attacks improved, and I have to readapt my FH approach.

I did find a Darker Esteem on a local online marketplace, but even more expensive (USD 148) than the supposedly more expensive 7p-2a carbon I managed to find offline).



Anyhow... My Jonyer H-II weighs at 80g, Yinhe Kiso 5 at 74g, and the 7p-2a carbon at 85g. It may need a while to assess and adjust.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

It is worth knowing that Hinoki is a kind of Cypress.