Lin Gaoyan's Style and the Poly Era

[Ilia Minkin]

Note that LGY was born in 1995. I guess that kids on pro-track have pretty much cemented-in technique by age 13 or 14 when they are ready to become full time players. It means that his techniques were already developed by the time of speed glue ban.

 

[ajtatosmano2]

A lot of this is fitting a square peg into a round hole. It's been known for a long time that bent elbow loops aid recovery at the cost of power. Ma Long, Zhang Jike, Wang Hao, Fan Zhendong (I am not listing Xu Xin for a reason, though I could) have a variety of forehand strokes that they adapt to a variety of situations. There is hardly a one size fits all swing with these players.

Of course there isn't! But there are habits and all the players have different physical properties, so they developed more or less different strokes. If you look at ZJK practice and ML practice, it's clearly noticeable that ML's own sweet-spot is farther from his body than ZJK's sweep-spot from his body. The other difference between their loop is the swing. ML has a spectacular, smooth swing, where you can feel the power coming from the waist rotation. When I see ZJK looping I feel that the power comes more from his shoulders and legs. It's hard to describe but watching ZJK I feel the power coming from his muscles, while seeing ML I feel the power coming from the harmonics of the whole body.
Anyway, I don't think that there is something special about their strokes. They all have exceptional loops, some prefer to use more speed, some prefer spin. One likes to run down everything and bomb the table like XX and some like to stay close the table and counter everything.

 

[matzreenzi]

Which "Eurojap" looper loops like this? One is sufficient.

Like I said, the one thing that characterizes all the top CNT players, less so Xu Xin, is diversity of looping techniques. If anyone calls ZJK a bit more of an Euro looper, which Eurolooper loops like this?

In the end, the top Chinese all have a diversity of swings - I think Ma Long is the worst (lots of different swings), and Xu Xin is the most conservative (almost always straight arm), but everyone adapts to the ball.

IMHO,best explanation about the size of the forehand swing, hands down.With that being said, Ma Long for me is the most versatile of them all in which making ML the best in forehand period based on multiple and various overall aspects such as consistency, power, spin and so on.

 

[Persistence TT]

Which "Eurojap" looper loops like this? One is sufficient.

Like I said, the one thing that characterizes all the top CNT players, less so Xu Xin, is diversity of looping techniques. If anyone calls ZJK a bit more of an Euro looper, which Eurolooper loops like this?

In the end, the top Chinese all have a diversity of swings - I think Ma Long is the worst (lots of different swings), and Xu Xin is the most conservative (almost always straight arm), but everyone adapts to the ball.

I was talking about off the bounce exchanges, the type of loop in the videos is the one that you have full time to react and stretch the arm and also cock the wrist downwards which is definitely chinese type of technique. But close to the table and trying to hit the ball off the bounce, my impression is that you are left with almost no choice than to play a chicken wing FH like timo does

All of the FH in the ZJK videos are bread and butter for him imho and his FH depends on his previous ball to set it up.

The point vs WLQ is a typical example, ZJK has no time fully stretch his arm so he is basically forced to drop it down a bit and then snap his elbow and wrist taking the ball early. Another example is the match point vs joo se huyk and the point vs wang hao in 2011 @ 3:49.

I didnt say they have eurojap technique in all situations, but close to the table you dont have the time to stretch ur arm and it is also pointless. You snap your elbow and wrist, redirect the ball and the point is over. If u stretch it that means u also give opponent more time to react, since you have to wait a bit more for the ball, thus also changing your feet position

Yan an is probably one of the few chinese if not the only one who produces explosive FH without stretching his arm (although his technique does not look like "chicken wing", more like a hybrid one). But he also uses more waist rotation than ZJK or FZD

 

[Persistence TT]

LGY's technique isn't a response to the poly ball. He was finalist in 2011 WJTTC and he lost to Koki Niwa. He used the exact same loop technique.
Yan An's arm is much more bent and his loops are much shorter.
ZJK can loop with the nearly the same acceleration with bent and streched arms, however he uses his forearm more than ML. I think nowaday LJK has the most similar FH to ZJK.

I think the angle of paddle also has its merit . FZD slaps the ball more, JZK YAN LJK FH are more spin oriented , XX the same, and ML also slaps it more compared to the other 3 but has also more control to his stroke. ML making an unforced error in the FH side is a rare phenomenon it may seem flashy but it is definitely the most sound technique for my taste because he does that pointing thingy with his none playing hand to adjust himself

 

[Baal]

That's kind of what I mean. Some player can be more deemed for one technique than the other and taught that way, because of their physical abilities and traits.

Or does the CNT work more on an "engineering" basis where they just have goals that they try to fulfill with their players ie: developing a certain kind of style for the next generation?

Could be but I would be quite surprised if they are that sophisticated in how they go about training kids though. From what I can see (from Chinese coaches here), it is initially a local coach telling a kid "do it this way". Later in China if the kid turns out to be good enough they might be sent to a full time table tennis training prison (age 11-13 or so) at a city or provincial level. By then, their strokes are already kind of established.

Actually the Chinese coach at my club, who is a ridiculously high level player, actually coaches all his kids to a quite "non-Chinese" looking chicken-wing forehand (which is also how he hits it).

 

[Archosaurus]

@Baal

So it has a lot more to do with the coach's preference and habits than what one would think.

 

[Baal]

@Baal

So it has a lot more to do with the coach's preference and habits than what one would think.

Sure seems that way to me.

It is amazingly rare that I have seen coaches take into account the build or intrinsic capabilities of their students, even kids.

Think about this: some kids are taller and will end up more like Xu Xin or Samsonov, and some kids even when younger are shorter and thicker and will end up more like FZD. All the same, when they are really young they are just kids and they look a lot more similar to each other at that time than they will later when they get older. So from what I see coaches pretty much treat them all the same way, using methods that in their experience work well (often the way they were coached). Then later on, when they are teenagers and coaches can start to see better what they are going to look like as adults, they already have strokes and techniques that are a lot harder to change.

I imagine that when they were both 10 years old, FZD and Xu Xin maybe didn't look a whole lot different in terms of body shape, except maybe for height (and even then, some kids who end up tall start growing fast a little later). I don't know if this is true, but is it possible that there are very strong Chinese players who have more "European" looking strokes but they never get chosen to CNT if they are viewed as having insufficient potential?

I know one example for sure because he lives here and I see him every time I play: Coach Li Kewai (a modern defender with an insanely strong forehand loop) hits his loop like German players, not Ma Long or WLQ.

Anyway, it comes down to once these kids reach teen years (assuming they started playing much younger, as with nearly all good Chinese and European players), how much do player's techniques change? I would suggest not a whole lot. They just get better with what they already have.

 

[fais]

What's Lin Gaoyan's age? Isn't he significantly younger than those two?

Comparing him to Ma Long or Xu Xin (who is on the tail end of his career) I think is a little unfair given the age gap. Perhaps his technique does allow him to be quicker but I think we should also compare it could be the age gap which is an important factor at that playing level. Just my 2 cents.

I'm convinced that XX at his current age would destroy LGY if they were to play with a celluloid ball. XX's spins would cause LGY man unforced errors, as he would struggle to keep the ball onto the table (especially when he plays close to the table).
Besides FZD, close to the table players did not cause much problems for XX because he could overwhelm them with spin. FZD did match well against him, but he was the exception, not the norm (primarliy due to his buffalo legs). Games between the two went back and forth. Now, the poly ball IMO switches the favor to the close to the table players game, and guys like LGY will become better faster becaus of the style they've adopted.

 

[Persistence TT]

I'm convinced that XX at his current age would destroy LGY if they were to play with a celluloid ball. XX's spins would cause LGY man unforced errors, as he would struggle to keep the ball onto the table (especially when he plays close to the table).
Besides FZD, close to the table players did not cause much problems for XX because he could overwhelm them with spin. FZD did match well against him, but he was the exception, not the norm (primarliy due to his buffalo legs). Games between the two went back and forth. Now, the poly ball IMO switches the favor to the close to the table players game, and guys like LGY will become better faster becaus of the style they've adopted.

Well we dont know that, XX has been figured out inside the CNT because of his poor BH , his chosing to pivot for a FH etc. He would definitely gain more points since he is a more delicate player but LGY has the whole package, he isnt just a powerplayer like FZD he also has finesse on his stroke and a very soft hand when needed

typical example of a similar eurojap loop by a chinese. The only difference is the wrist cock when ZJK drops his arm in his backswing, most euro players keep the wrist steady and just snap it

 

[NextLevel]

Well we dont know that, XX has been figured out inside the CNT because of his poor BH , his chosing to pivot for a FH etc. He would definitely gain more points since he is a more delicate player but LGY has the whole package, he isnt just a powerplayer like FZD he also has finesse on his stroke and a very soft hand when needed

typical example of a similar eurojap loop by a chinese. The only difference is the wrist cock when ZJK drops his arm in his backswing, most euro players keep the wrist steady and just snap it

He is not cocking his wrist, film yourself from behind looping sometime and see what it looks like.

 

[Persistence TT]

correct me if im wrong but cocking the wrist isnt that droping move he does by relaxing it when he finishes his backswing?

 

[suds79]

XX has been figured out inside the CNT because of his poor BH , his choosing to pivot for a FH etc.

Truer words have never been spoken. Xu Xin's play reminds of of Ryu Seung-min's play back in the day when he was young. Step around everything and play that monster forehand.

Problem is the ball is bigger now and a little less spiny and XX is a little older. he still has no BH and is afraid to use it consistently. The single winged penholder on the pro level is truly dead.

Future players will have to favor more of the Wang Hao style of play.

 

[Persistence TT]

Truer words have never been spoken. Xu Xin's play reminds of of Ryu Seung-min's play back in the day when he was young. Step around everything and play that monster forehand.

Problem is the ball is bigger now and a little less spiny and XX is a little older. he still has no BH and is afraid to use it consistently. The single winged penholder on the pro level is truly dead.

Future players will have to favor more of the Wang Hao style of play.

I dont think he is less fast than before he is 2 years younger than ZJK & ML and I guess his choice to play more FH is because he does not have the confidence to play aggressively with the BH. In my eyes he proved he can do it, stay close to the table and play bh without pivoting but whenever he makes a mistake he goes to safe mode and plays FH again ...only to be exploited by his opponent. He definitely needs to achieve a breakthrough LGY LJK ZY LDS are definitely on a hunting season

 

[laistrogian]

Truer words have never been spoken. Xu Xin's play reminds of of Ryu Seung-min's play back in the day when he was young. Step around everything and play that monster forehand.

Problem is the ball is bigger now and a little less spiny and XX is a little older. he still has no BH and is afraid to use it consistently. The single winged penholder on the pro level is truly dead.

Future players will have to favor more of the Wang Hao style of play.

I think future players just play shakehand instead of penhold in the first place.

 

[suds79]

I think future players just play shakehand instead of penhold in the first place.

Certainly that has been and will continue to be the case. But for the ones who do remain, I think they'll have to play a more balanced style.

I will say I think there is something to be said for having something unique about your game. One, it's bad for the sport if everybody plays the same way. But two, you can have a distinct advantage if players aren't used to your style. Look at Mattias Karlsson as an example. Certainly on some level his unique style of play helps him.

 

[countrybread]

-Xu Xin is the Mad Max of penholders.

-I agree with TTFrenzy that Zhang Jike "cocks" his wrist during the end of his backswing.

-And just for fun I decided to try the "chicken wing" swing the other night at the club and, surprisingly, it made my forehand much more consistent.

 

[rainneverever]

Coach Wu Jingping has a lot of great analyses and insights on improvements and issues of Xu Xin, Lin Gaoyuan and of course Fan Zhendong. However most of his posts on Sina Weibo won't be free to public until 3 months later. It will be interesting to discuss the current topic again knowing the coach's thoughts.

 

[NextLevel]

correct me if im wrong but cocking the wrist isnt that droping move he does by relaxing it when he finishes his backswing?

Film yourself sometime.

 

[Persistence TT]

Film yourself sometime.

I dont need to I know exactly what Im doing technique wise especially in my arm/forearm/wrist. when I did recorded myself ages ago was to fix lazy footwork habit and bad posture/upright stance...which I already knew but I had to confirm and see out of curiosity mostly how I look like when I play