More Pros not enjoying WTT and its expensive Costs

[Gozo]

Last year an African player talked about how bad WTT has become for him (compared to ITTF's World Tours/Pro Tours), how expensive it is to stay at the "official hotels" and that his family/partner can't join, as its double the cost for the 2nd person, while sharing his room (I travel a lot, sharing a room is not 2 times the price in these 5 star hotels).

Well, lots of forum members didn't take it seriously. Some said that the African player isn't a top player in the world..... (they obviously struggle to see through the person talking, rather than was caught stuck with player's levels)

However, through my circles, I have heard so many active player complaining, here is an European nation now complaining.
I do wish the world is fair, but it is reality that a complaint from Poland (Europe) will have more weight than a complaint from Senegal (Africa)

Ny struktur har gjort vejen til toppen dyr og besværlig – og helt umulig for de næstbedste

Internationale turneringer er blevet så dyre at deltage i, at de for hovedparten af bordtennisspillerne er en underskudsforretning.

politiken.dk

It is true that if you are seeded 9, you could be placed against seed 1 in that first round, while 63 can be placed against 64.
Your price money is on progression, and there is no protection based on seeds other than top 8 seeds.

Also, lower world ranked players CANNOT play in high prize money tournaments. They need to build up the ranking points from feeders. But how many feeders win equates to a top 8 finish in terms of points and prize moneys?
Feeders is expensive to play in, while having almost zero prize money (and world ranking points).
IE: Feeder Dusseldorf winner is USD600.
Star Contender Goa R48 is USD900
Smash QR1 is USD 1300


It is true, the incentive for players out side top 50 is little to non-existent.
The Polish players called it even as high as top 20.

Ranking point is a ugly subject now, with winning an World Champ (2000 points) impossible to catch up with, or the world teams now have zero individual players point (so while bother taking part)

While fans enjoy your top 10s only, but top 21 to top 100 is equally important for the sport. So I hope people look beyond "playing levels", else the sport will have a bumping ride.

I have always wondered why my National Players do not play in the WTT events. They were good and they have talent. Then this post came about and now I know that they are also good with accounting ( i.e., evaluating the cost-benefit ). So kudos to my National Players for being good in the game and in accounting too.

p/s On a side note, Malaysians have a natural affinity towards accounting. https://www.thestar.com.my/news/education/2023/02/19/msians-ace-acca-again

 

[lodro]

Why? I doubt anything like that happens at our local club. Most of the money goes to paying the rent for the space to play. Some for balls and some for tables and repairs.

You are allowed to doubt but here it is a fact

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

That's very interesting - so in effect Paul is paying for the opportunity to bump his ranking points which lead to better tournaments. So his SF loss today at Dusseldorf will at least get him some points.

In essence, this is just that.
Its a chicken or egg first problem now.
and ranking points are only valid for a year.
So, if you injured, your world ranking drops very quickly and you can't take part in the Smash, where the money is.

I heard from a former top 30, who is bumped down with these new changes, and said, its impossible for him to get back to top 30 inside 1 year (he can't take part in tournaments that could make that possible). He could do that inside 2 or 3 years by getting higher ranked, then have chance to a bigger tournament, and try his luck on tournament draws. Or maybe he won't.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Let's face it Table Tennis is not exactly a rich sport. There's only so much money being paid by sponsors and so many people interested in it around the world. Compared to golf where there are millions(billions?) in sponsorships and the top 1000 tour players are rich. Flying around in their private jets and multimillion dollar homes.

You are missing the point.
Talk table tennis with table tennis.
ITTF's Pro Tour/world tour days are better than what it is today for these WR 30 to 300 players

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I have always wondered why my National Players do not play in the WTT events. They were good and they have talent. Then this post came about and now I know that they are also good with accounting ( i.e., evaluating the cost-benefit ). So kudos to my National Players for being good in the game and in accounting too.

p/s On a side note, Malaysians have a natural affinity towards accounting. https://www.thestar.com.my/news/education/2023/02/19/msians-ace-acca-again

Then WTT wonders, why people are not taking part.
a year ago, I knew of this problem and I know the problem is not just isolated to a few people or few countries.

The longer this trends continue, to more we will hear of it.

Der_Echte is right.

It requires a gov backing program that allows these players to take part on the WTT circuit.
There are different support system, either by national team, or national olympic funding, or educational dept funding etc.
But these funding normally only cover expenses. At best, free airplane ticket, cover hotel bills, cover coaching/training partners/medical staff. It won't cover salary for the player.
And when I say, at best, there are many that need to cover own costs like training partners/coaches etc.

So, what happens if you don't have gov funding? or the funding runs out (either by gov, or by your lack of results), you are out of this world circuit....

Its all good when you are 20 years old, but when you are 25 or 30, you will start to realize, heck, I need a salary, I will need retirement funding... I can't play forever. My bills won't be covered until i'm 65 years old / 90 years old by this gov funding.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

You are allowed to doubt but here it is a fact

So you are paying club fees that go to the ITTF?

How much is your club fees?

 

[Gozo]

Tony,

All these depressing talk made me to be glad I took up TT as a hobby and not as a profession.

All these years my parents said to me stop playing so much, but, instead study study study turned out to be good advise.

 

[lodro]

So you are paying club fees that go to the ITTF?

How much is your club fees?

learn to read mate: I said a part of the club fees goes to the national association and invariably a part will get passed on to ITTF

Here this is the norm, whatever sport you play, be it TT, Petanque or yachting etc.
Anybody who wants to play international events has to belong to a club that is affiliated with the state Association, which is affiliated with the national association which is affiliated with the international Federation and they all take a cut. Actually this week we were told that these contribution to the racket will go up so it will be virtually a 50/50 split.
Even if a club member does not play any tournaments, he/she still has to pay the contribution to the money racket.

So much fun

 

[Der_Echte]

You seem confused.
On one hand you try to punch down socialism ( probably confusing it with communism) on the other hand you are claiming that the free market is restoring things and making it all good again.

But is it not the free market that is pointing with a greedy finger at the very top players going : you and you and etc. can stay , we pay you well because you will make us money, but you other lot can bugger off . ????????

I have no fix to suggest, it is what it is.
At my level I am just pissed of that half of my club fees are passed on to the National Association and likely some of it to the ITTF.............for WHAT ???

I am certainly not confused about socialism and its evils, the goal of socialism is totalitarian control and later communism, it is out there for anyone to read and know.

Now to address your "Beef" (an Amercian word for complaint) about the national association taking amateur's money and funneling it to things that do not benefit the amateurs (this is exactly the USA TT system) entirely WITHOUT the consent of the (majority of) amateur players and there is practically zero ability of the amateurs to put checks and controls on the association...

This is easily WRONG in so many ways and I totally agree with you in this regard. The inability of the amateur player to have a say in this and control it is irritating at the least.

 

[Der_Echte]

Why? I doubt anything like that happens at our local club. Most of the money goes to paying the rent for the space to play. Some for balls and some for tables and repairs.

Yes, still, in USA, in order for a club to be listed, a club must pay USATT to be listed and be seen. That is a PORTION of the money. (but it is not a lot) (and BB, you rightfully articulate that almost all income of a USA club goes towards its high operating expenses)

If a club does USATT tourneys, then the money it gives USATT gets huger.

 

[Der_Echte]

Several French pros have complained about this too and about losing money.

Yes, this is overall in my opinion a bad thing, similar to barriers to enter a trade, like union dues or a membership in a trade association or mafia safe money protection payout or similar thing... anything that makes it difficult to enter a trade works against free market principles.

Ultimately, they will need to carefully assess and act, but bigshot jokers in charge artificially making it difficult to operate freely to pursue the ability to earn enough to make a living and greatly increase the risk above what it would naturally be is so wrong.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

learn to read mate: I said a part of the club fees goes to the national association and invariably a part will get passed on to ITTF

Here this is the norm, whatever sport you play, be it TT, Petanque or yachting etc.
Anybody who wants to play international events has to belong to a club that is affiliated with the state Association, which is affiliated with the national association which is affiliated with the international Federation and they all take a cut. Actually this week we were told that these contribution to the racket will go up so it will be virtually a 50/50 split.
Even if a club member does not play any tournaments, he/she still has to pay the contribution to the money racket.

So much fun

learn to read mate: how much is your club fees?

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Tony,

All these depressing talk made me to be glad I took up TT as a hobby and not as a profession.

All these years my parents said to me stop playing so much, but, instead study study study turned out to be good advise.

There is money in coaching, there isn't much money in playing.
There is so much more coaches making a living off TT than players off TT on this planet.

There is pros and cons in table tennis and depending where you are and where you want to go.
TT is strong in Asia and many of them are using TT as a skills immigration to Europe and Americas.

Btw, you need to be up there to be "profession".
If you drop out, you are neither professional nor acadmically complete

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I am certainly not confused about socialism and its evils, the goal of socialism is totalitarian control and later communism, it is out there for anyone to read and know.

Now to address your "Beef" (an Amercian word for complaint) about the national association taking amateur's money and funneling it to things that do not benefit the amateurs (this is exactly the USA TT system) entirely WITHOUT the consent of the (majority of) amateur players and there is practically zero ability of the amateurs to put checks and controls on the association...

This is easily WRONG in so many ways and I totally agree with you in this regard. The inability of the amateur player to have a say in this and control it is irritating at the least.

To think that a table tennis body income is from members fee is pretty.... close to invalid.
Member fees would be a a small ratio in many countries.

In many countries these national associations would get gov funding through different programs.
For example in South Africa, the national lottery is a NPO and all earnings there goes into sports/cultural/arts etc. and the national TT federation biggest earnings comes from there.
Then there is the National Olympic committee and funding there. You would also get other gov departments (sport dept or education dept).
If i was to guess, in SA, the member fees (if 100% of the club members fees goes to national body - which it doesn't), that is still less than 1% of the budget. Maybe 0.001%,

And for all those who are guessing, the financial statements are (or should be) free for the general public to see and understand further.

To think that a club member is funding national federation, and then funding ITTF and for that to fund Ma Long's prize income.... hm... sorry, that is too small of a monetary amount to even be valid.

Its like saying Fifa getting their money by club soccer too. Maybe 0.00001% valid, thus 99.9999% invalid

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

This system is definitely cringe-worthy and hurts the sport.

Lots of people involved in one or another was moaning.
There was no pilot period. It started with Covid, then the "launch" was forgotten until last year - where the calendar was a joke (events being posted with about 1 months notice, or canceled with 2 or 3 weeks noticed)

ITTF gave WTT 15 years contract.... we have a long way to go

 

[lodro]

I am certainly not confused about socialism and its evils, the goal of socialism is totalitarian control and later communism, it is out there for anyone to read and know.

Now to address your "Beef" (an Amercian word for complaint) about the national association taking amateur's money and funneling it to things that do not benefit the amateurs (this is exactly the USA TT system) entirely WITHOUT the consent of the (majority of) amateur players and there is practically zero ability of the amateurs to put checks and controls on the association...

This is easily WRONG in so many ways and I totally agree with you in this regard. The inability of the amateur player to have a say in this and control it is irritating at the least.

Shall we both agree to leave politics aside? Because we then agree with one another
your friend Lodro the anarchist 😂

 

[Der_Echte]

To think that a table tennis body income is from members fee is pretty.... close to invalid.
Member fees would be a a small ratio in many countries.

In many countries these national associations would get gov funding through different programs.
For example in South Africa, the national lottery is a NPO and all earnings there goes into sports/cultural/arts etc. and the national TT federation biggest earnings comes from there.
Then there is the National Olympic committee and funding there. You would also get other gov departments (sport dept or education dept).
If i was to guess, in SA, the member fees (if 100% of the club members fees goes to national body - which it doesn't), that is still less than 1% of the budget. Maybe 0.001%,

And for all those who are guessing, the financial statements are (or should be) free for the general public to see and understand further.

To think that a club member is funding national federation, and then funding ITTF and for that to fund Ma Long's prize income.... hm... sorry, that is too small of a monetary amount to even be valid.

Its like saying Fifa getting their money by club soccer too. Maybe 0.00001% valid, thus 99.9999% invalid

Yes Tony, your assessment is reasonable. I gave a similar assessment replying to broken ball's post on the degree of contribution. It is a principle at stake that the amateurs have a disproportionate voice or control compared to the amount of funds from them... it is a free economic world pretty much, so players can spend their money elsewhere and make their own organizations... Korea did that with amateur table tennis and it works really well nearly everyone there satisfied with how it functions, that is about the best it will get not perfect.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Yes Tony, your assessment is reasonable. I gave a similar assessment replying to broken ball's post on the degree of contribution. It is a principle at stake that the amateurs have a disproportionate voice or control compared to the amount of funds from them... it is a free economic world pretty much, so players can spend their money elsewhere and make their own organizations... Korea did that with amateur table tennis and it works really well nearly everyone there satisfied with how it functions, that is about the best it will get not perfect.

In many asian countries, the national federation controls the "pro"
while there are many other organisations that control the amateur sector.
I do think it is a good idea.
To think that USATT is in responsible for say, social players, is like asking FIBA to be in charge of your street ball ballers.
Each should have they own, and pros follow the national team pathway.

 

[lodro]

Yes Tony, your assessment is reasonable. I gave a similar assessment replying to broken ball's post on the degree of contribution. It is a principle at stake that the amateurs have a disproportionate voice or control compared to the amount of funds from them... it is a free economic world pretty much, so players can spend their money elsewhere and make their own organizations... Korea did that with amateur table tennis and it works really well nearly everyone there satisfied with how it functions, that is about the best it will get not perfect.

Yeah, i googled it and especially liked the idea of playing for a chicken dinner and beer after the play

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Recap on ITTF CEO on WTT in 2020....

The most significant outcomes of the new model expected to be seen from 2021 are:
• Increased prize money
• New professional event series with blockbuster marquee events
• Globally renowned commercial partners and investors
• Exclusive women’s tour to further promote the women’s game
• Unrivalled development / high performance opportunities for all future stars
• Robust commercial platform enabling table tennis to catch up with other sports
• Enhanced TV production to showcase the stars from a fresh angle
• Investment into a new social and digital strategy to further promote players and events

A Message from the CEO I World Table Tennis Origins - International Table Tennis Federation

Table Tennis, ping pong, whif whaf or whatever name has been used is a sport that has existed for more than 140 years and is believed to have first been played by the aristocrats in England in the late 18th century. The International Table Tennis Federation (ITTF) was subsequently founded in...

www.ittf.com