Other candidates for GOAT

[Tempest/Comet]

HEY HEY.... I AM THE INVENTOR of RPB !!!!

Back in the late 70s, when I first started to learn table tennis (LGL was still in diaper) I used penhold grip. I watched lots of matches (in video) and tried to imitate Zhuan Ze Dong (incorrect spelling?). He could do backhand smash (in traditional penhold grip). I tried hard but it just felt unnatural to me. So I put a rubber on the backhand side and tried to do "what they called RPB now".

To the horror of every other players that saw me doing backhand "RPB style" they always said that penhold grip was not meant to be played that way. After 2 years of frustration, I finally changed to shakehand grip and never look back.

BUT NOW every penhold grip players are doing RPB and since they are world class players, no one seems to object and even praise them.

But when I did that, everybody criticized me. Talking about double standard here.

The last sentence is just a joke but THE WHOLE STORY IS TRUE.

So can everybody agree now and say that I AM THE INVENTOR OF RPB????

Every penhold-grip players must pay me a royalty fee every time they do the RPB.


Additional info:
Current penhold bat has backhand rubber fully cover the wood so the 3 fingers are rested on the rubber. Back then, I put my backhand rubber lower than usual (similar to the FH side) so that my 3 fingers rested on the wood. Although I used Chinese penhold blade ( I can't remember if it's DHS PF4 or 032) but I got this idea from the Japanese penhold bat, where they had corks on the backhand side for the 3 fingers and painted the rest of the wood.

It goes farther back than that😋, but it does bring back fond memories!

Tempest was using a Butterfly Tempest D13 (before they came out with Scriver) on a Butterfly j-pen, with painted bare wood on it’s back. I had a Butterfly Comet C4 (pips) on a Crown c-pen blade with a cork back.
While I was trying to emulate Zhuang’s push-block backhand-wise, Tempest had better flexibility because of her knuckle grip/handle configuration for better angle of attack. But from time to time, against spins, she would extend her 3 fingers down to further push the back for a better angle and used the low back in what you describe as RBP play. She can chop or top-spin back.
With my pips and playing the same way using the cork back, I was quite impervious to her spins. By the time she returned to Japan, she had mounted a pimple sheet to the lower half of the back.

And then the rules changed.🤣

 

[\_Kairos_/]

Had Wang Hao won 2 Olympics would he be the goat?

No. WH would still "only" have 1 World Championship title; Ma Long has three. He also has 28 World Pro Tour titles, WH has 19. Ma Longs overall resume would still outperform WHs. I would argue that, for example, winning the China Open is more difficult for a chinese player than to win the Olympics...well, except if your name is Wang Hao , who won the China Open three times, but "only" got three silver medals in the Olympic singles. Ma Long, by the way won the China Open eight times...

Ahhhh, the old GOAT conversation.

It'll never get old. At least it's fun and we tt players (still) have things to discuss and consider, unlike basketball, where, if you don't think that Michael Jordan is the undisputed GOAT, than your iq is probably on Forrest Gump's level (possibly lower)...or you are legally blind.

For Waldner, his stats for WTTC, especially against China, are impressive. He is 1 of only 4 players to have taken 2 points off of China in the team event. Keep in mind individual and team events used to be held together until 1997 and so the scheduling was hectic.

Which is likely one of the reasons why the chinese still hold Waldner in such high regard, right? I wouldn't be surprised if China considers him to be the better player overall compared to Boll, despite him having a lot less success in the Euro Champs as well as the World Cup than Boll.
Zeio, do you have some reliable infos how the "contemporary" chinese (players and coaches on the amateur, provincial and pro level) truly rate Waldner as of today? Would be interesting to hear some of the more detailed stuff regarding Waldner from the chinese perspective.

Ma Long was shipped into the CNT on a golden platter and was natured to be the king since his young days.
...
Ma Long was not a winning in his younger years.
...

Would you care to elaborate on this part? It's not that I don't believe you, it's just that I do not know much about Ma Long pre-2007 first hand (or even second hand). You probably have more insight into that topic. If one just looks up his results from 2003/2004 he actually won quite a few gold and silver medals as a cadet/junior.

...
If he came on and dominate since a younger age, then he would have gotten his 3 grand slams.
...

That might be true. But then again Michael Jordan won his first NBA title when he was already 29 (he struggled quite a bit against the Pistons during the late 80s while they were employing the so-called "Jordan rules") and he is still widely considered to be the GOAT of basketball.

... No one threatening Ma Long when he was 30 years old, and that wasn't the case with previous leaders.
Even today, is it Ma Long's greatness or weak youngsters? I believe it is the latter.
...

Interesting question. I actually tend to agree with that notion. While WCQ has become incredibly strong, the current generation in general seems noticibly weaker and overall less impressive that the previous two generations (Wang Hao/Ma Lin/Wang Liqin in the 2000s and Zhang Jike/Xu Xin/Ma Long in the 2010s...FZD is sort of an "in betweener" => when ZJK faded out, he seamlessly took over).
But I wouldn't necessarily hold that against Ma Long. He has no direct influence on that. He just has to deal with the opponents that are presented to him, so to speak. It is what it is (...but I get your drift!).

FZD just doesn't have the same attraction (a little like Federer vs Djokovic) - He's more robotic and less pleasing on the eye for me personally.

Hmm, yes. Unfortunately most players have become more and more robotic and playing styles more uniform, which is sad (I wish that there was a worthy succesor to JSH). Damn plastic ball... !

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Would you care to elaborate on this part? It's not that I don't believe you, it's just that I do not know much about Ma Long pre-2007 first hand (or even second hand). You probably have more insight into that topic. If one just looks up his results from 2003/2004 he actually won quite a few gold and silver medals as a cadet/junior.

Ma Long since young, was there to be promoted up.
Deng Yaping, despite being top junior, was deemed too short to compete against foreigners,
in comparison to Deng, Ma got a gold platter, basically everyone did.

Back to Ma Long, he was a very solid junior pre international.
memory is a bit glimpse now, but I recall hearing of him when he first got to Beijing around 13 years old or so and by 14 year old, he got into the national b team (junior team).
he was so good that his first attempt to "promote to 1st team", he came up 2nd in the trials and made it into 1st team. he was around 15 by then.
So since small, he was already known as a good potential.
If my memory is correct FZD was younger than Ma Long, so it doesn't mean this insures greatness.

Deng Yaping had better results but was rejected at first due to her height, until she won the national title and force her way in. I think that was when she was 13 years old or so and within 3 years, she was world champion and dominated until age 24.

That might be true. But then again Michael Jordan won his first NBA title when he was already 29 (he struggled quite a bit against the Pistons during the late 80s while they were employing the so-called "Jordan rules") and he is still widely considered to be the GOAT of basketball.

one could argue if the ball didn't change, could Ma Long still be face enough?
if the ball was still 38mm today, could the 40 years old still play?

NBA is a team sport. so you can't compare with table tennis.
With Ma Long's greatness, he still took a while to overcome his seniors.
Deng Yaping came and knock out everyone, and she was still a kid.
Think about it as Miwa at 15 years old beating everyone and retire at 24 or 25, because it was just too boring to continue winning.

Interesting question. I actually tend to agree with that notion. While WCQ has become incredibly strong, the current generation in general seems noticibly weaker and overall less impressive that the previous two generations (Wang Hao/Ma Lin/Wang Liqin in the 2000s and Zhang Jike/Xu Xin/Ma Long in the 2010s...FZD is sort of an "in betweener" => when ZJK faded out, he seamlessly took over).
But I wouldn't necessarily hold that against Ma Long. He has no direct influence on that. He just has to deal with the opponents that are presented to him, so to speak. It is what it is (...but I get your drift!).

Hold it against Ma Long?
well, of course luck / era has everything to do with one's fate.
not Ma Long's fault, but one could argue, his longevity is due to the declining CNT.
CNT decline is not some anti china nonsense blahblah is saying when I quote it. I'm sure everyone would agree there is a decline for many years already.

I recall 2 years ago, I said on here that CNT decline has caused them to build up CNT C team. You won't hear much of this out there but I will remain silence on sharing too much unnecessary - since I am still waiting for an apology from Dan.

if Ma Long was born 10 years early. I'm not sure if he would be so great as he is today.
think about it, CNT has ruled for 35+ years and for 25+ years, rule change has hurt everyone - including contenders in the GOAT category. The last rule change was the ball in 2014 if I recall.

I personally know international stars that told me how service rule has took away their careers. From always getting into R16 with ease to never getting past R64 since the change.
Ma Long's peak is about the same time that table tennis has been the most stable (other than WTT and format changes, but still same rules basically).

So Ma Long has been very fortunate, with rule stability and lesser new comers knocking on his door.
He still made it possible - so all credits to him, but is he really that good? as I said, he should of taken more when there was more competition, giving his earlier success from promoting from prov to nat b to nat a all with 1 year time span - not many have done that!

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Oh btw,
My Beijing source (where is Shine hahahaha), did tell me a secret, of which I did share in TTD - so bored people can go search for it.
Ma Long stayed for a specific reason. I can't remember the full spec now, but the answer is in the search column
otherwise, he was ready to retire 2 years ago.

 

[\_Kairos_/]

Ma Long since young, was there to be promoted up.
...
in comparison to Deng, Ma got a gold platter, basically everyone did.

OK, I see. You meant he (and others) had it easier to get to the top specifically compared to Deng Yaping. Got ya.

if Ma Long was born 10 years early. I'm not sure if he would be so great as he is today..

Yeah, well, Ma Lin, Wang Hao and Wang Liqin stood in each others way more often than not. Throw in Ma Long in that generation...Wow...who knows what would have happened.

... as I said, he should of taken more when there was more competition, giving his earlier success from promoting from prov to nat b to nat a all with 1 year time span - not many have done that!

Perhaps, yes. But then again nobody's perfect. The way I see it, his accolades and achievements pre 2015 strongly back up his later success from 2015 onwards.


To (more or less) finalize my standpoint on this matter, I thought about it this way:
What has been by far the most dominant nation in TT until today: China.
Who is - if you take everything into account - the pre-eminent player of that nation: I believe that is Ma Long, since he - as mentioned earlier - checks all the relevant boxes, whereas his domestic rivals all have their "shortcomings" in one way or another.
And being the greatest player of the most dominant tt nation on the planet puts you automatically in the GOAT-discussion. There really only is Waldner (from outside of China) who would be in that same discussion...and he had his "shortcomings" as well, which ultimately leaves Ma Long on top by himself. He has nothing more to prove.

P.S.: Only in my wet dreams I fantasize about Waldner winning every single match between 1985 - 2000. But those are (un)fortunately only my wet dreams.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

To (more or less) finalize my standpoint on this matter, I thought about it this way:
What has been by far the most dominant nation in TT until today: China.

If you look at history, Japan dominated for 20 years
than the Swedes
and only from late 1980 till today (40 years) is China
we can go back into history and can also see other decade long domination

PS , 1988, 2003, 2004, 2010 China failed it domination.

Who is - if you take everything into account - the pre-eminent player of that nation: I believe that is Ma Long, since he - as mentioned earlier - checks all the relevant boxes, whereas his domestic rivals all have their "shortcomings" in one way or another.
And being the greatest player of the most dominant tt nation on the planet puts you automatically in the GOAT-discussion. There really only is Waldner (from outside of China) who would be in that same discussion...and he had his "shortcomings" as well, which ultimately leaves Ma Long on top by himself. He has nothing more to prove.

for the past few years, China has been the weakest ever
if the overall standard has dropped, the best one there, doesn't mean it is the best of all time.

If 100% is complete, 80% over 60% is not better than 85% of the previous generation if I can put it like that.

Ma Long should not have still dominated. the same time, CNT are losing more and more to foreigners.

So, Ma Long does have it easy by being around this era (last 10 years of his career), that is fate and can't argue against that.

So if your argument is that of Ma Long number 1 in China, and China number 1 in the world.
then, my counter is, he is not a 100%, he is only number 1, because number 2 is failing, number 3 is failing,

credits to Ma Long never the less. I would put him over Waldner, Deng Yaping over Ma Long in terms of number 1 from China.

Ma Long wasn't dominating when things are harder
he only dominated when things gotten easier (but he did get older, so that is why he does deserve a lot of credit)

 

[\_Kairos_/]

...
and only from late 1980 till today (40 years) is China
...

I do believe that this is the relevant time period, because tt until the early/mid 80s was a very different game, both material- but also athletic-wise.
Modern day tt was dominated by the chinese; medal mirrors clearly show that. Of course they (men and women) got beaten here and there (particularly swedens men challenged them for a while), but no other nation de facto dethroned them and established their own long-term dynasty (Sweden after 2000 faded away while China remained at the top), at least not yet.

BTW and FWIW: I'm not a China fanboy...

 

[Tinykin]

It is obvious that this thread is about favourite players since the late nineties rather than the GOAT.

 

[Lazer]

It is obvious that this thread is about favourite players since the late nineties rather than the GOAT.

Agreed, and it is impossible to name a GOAT only best of their time. The prerequisites are all different at different points in history.

Cheers
L-zr

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I do believe that this is the relevant time period, because tt until the early/mid 80s was a very different game, both material- but also athletic-wise.
Modern day tt was dominated by the chinese; medal mirrors clearly show that. Of course they (men and women) got beaten here and there (particularly swedens men challenged them for a while), but no other nation de facto dethroned them and established their own long-term dynasty (Sweden after 2000 faded away while China remained at the top), at least not yet.

BTW and FWIW: I'm not a China fanboy...

yep, fair to say that
but again, is Ma Long really that great?
if he was the GOAT, and has the best of everything, he would have dominated earlier, of which he didn't

He had everything going his way more than other names mentioned.
If Ma Long had to change due to rule change every 3 years, or if China continues to bring is new super stars, my bet is he won't last that long. Of course, his fate allowed him the easy way for most of his career. The tough part of his career - wasn't number 1 for sure.

You see, I see further than CNT, Chinese provincial team quantity and quality for the past 10 years has been shockingly bad. Hence the lack of promotion into CNT, hence CNT C team coming into existence to help "fix this problem". So far, no much improvement still.
If Ma Long wanted to stay on for another 4 years, if his body allows, he probably can still be good enough for olympic teams in 2028.
Is that Ma Long being good or LSD just not up to the level he should be?

I'm a Ma Long fan of this generation players. But GOAT label is maybe only half half, not a fully.
A pity his younger levels (with competition) just didn't go his way, else that would make him a 100% unreplaceable super star.

As I said, look at Deng, world champion at a young age and dominated every day of her international career. Her fate was the opposite in a way - no drive to cement a record that even Ma Long can't match.
In those days, seeking double grandslam wasn't even on the cards, unlike today.
In terms of domination Deng over Ma Long

 

[rainneverever]

yep, fair to say that
but again, is Ma Long really that great?
if he was the GOAT, and has the best of everything, he would have dominated earlier, of which he didn't

He had everything going his way more than other names mentioned.
If Ma Long had to change due to rule change every 3 years, or if China continues to bring is new super stars, my bet is he won't last that long. Of course, his fate allowed him the easy way for most of his career. The tough part of his career - wasn't number 1 for sure.

You see, I see further than CNT, Chinese provincial team quantity and quality for the past 10 years has been shockingly bad. Hence the lack of promotion into CNT, hence CNT C team coming into existence to help "fix this problem". So far, no much improvement still.
If Ma Long wanted to stay on for another 4 years, if his body allows, he probably can still be good enough for olympic teams in 2028.
Is that Ma Long being good or LSD just not up to the level he should be?

I'm a Ma Long fan of this generation players. But GOAT label is maybe only half half, not a fully.
A pity his younger levels (with competition) just didn't go his way, else that would make him a 100% unreplaceable super star.

As I said, look at Deng, world champion at a young age and dominated every day of her international career. Her fate was the opposite in a way - no drive to cement a record that even Ma Long can't match.
In those days, seeking double grandslam wasn't even on the cards, unlike today.
In terms of domination Deng over Ma Long

Deng Yaping is highly regarded in China, better than Zhang Yining although Deng did not attend the 2nd WC to possibly make double Grand Slam. But that's the IF thing. No guarantee that the longer one player plays, the more titles he/she gains. Of course, we can wish he/she wins. Then what if Ma Long were allowed to play 2021 WTTC (not long after he got OG) to get the fourth in a row? What if Ma Long were selected for 2024 OG to get the third (not long after he got WC)? Or what if Ma Long were selected for 2012 OG (he was playing A player in team event in 2012 OG which never happened to a team only player)? As a Ma Long fan, these IFs do bother me, but just for a little bit. And they are good reminders not using double standards in discussion.
As for the question whether Ma Long is competing with a weaker generation after another, what do you think about the generations Deng Yaping was competing with then? Very strong if not strongest by the same logic?
It is hard to quantify but I guess H2H against top players (earlier + current+ later generations) may speak a lot.
Whether Ma Long is a lucky survivor from the ball change, wasn't he doomed in 2014 and considering retirement lol? I guess adaptation, or the understanding of the game is the factor to be considered.

I am curious more about what your Beijing team source said about the ban on Ma Long in 2021 WTTC. It is not convincing to me that your source said that Ma Long was asked not to retire 2 years ago for a big money. Apparently, the ban in 2021 WTTC was a sign to ask him to retire. In a recent interview, Ma Long recapped all his WTTC attendance including in 2013 that he got injured before SF loss to Wang Hao. But no one including Ma Long himself dared to mention 2021 WTTC. Anyways, much appreciated if you can explain the ban.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Deng Yaping is highly regarded in China, better than Zhang Yining although Deng did not attend the 2nd WC to possibly make double Grand Slam. But that's the IF thing. No guarantee that the longer one player plays, the more titles he/she gains. Of course, we can wish he/she wins.

True, there is no guarantee Deng would dominate for another 10 years
so the only thing is to look at Ma Long actually playing, in the years when he was younger and had no GOAT result.

Then what if Ma Long were allowed to play 2021 WTTC (not long after he got OG) to get the fourth in a row? What if Ma Long were selected for 2024 OG to get the third (not long after he got WC)? Or what if Ma Long were selected for 2012 OG (he was playing A player in team event in 2012 OG which never happened to a team only player)? As a Ma Long fan, these IFs do bother me, but just for a little bit. And they are good reminders not using double standards in discussion.

You mentioned 2012 and 2021, these are 2 vast period
the former, was he GOAT already?
You are looking at things backwards or from the future now on why he didn't play, but at that time,
We are talking of ZJK and WH stopping Ma Long.
Why did Ma Long allow these 2 to stop him?
Ma Long is the same age as ZJK and and 5 years younger than WH
many players in CNT can dominate older players (especially many women's), but Ma Long wasn't in that GOAT earlier on and I think that is important to note.

As for the question whether Ma Long is competing with a weaker generation after another, what do you think about the generations Deng Yaping was competing with then? Very strong if not strongest by the same logic?
It is hard to quantify but I guess H2H against top players (earlier + current+ later generations) may speak a lot.
Whether Ma Long is a lucky survivor from the ball change, wasn't he doomed in 2014 and considering retirement lol? I guess adaptation, or the understanding of the game is the factor to be considered.

when talking generation, it is always tough.
one could also point out if CNT didn't have its earlier generations, would Ma Long be technically complete? Ma Long's success has got to do with a lot of his predecessors too.

So that is why I think the easiest to use is domination in it's own period, and as the newer generations coming out to be stronger, that has been atleast the challenge for other GOAT nominees. ie, continue to stay on not to be replaced internally.
Ma Long - either strong enough to not be replaceable, or the next generation are weaker (you can make that call, and a par matrix with foreigners has always been used over all generations)

It would be interesting to see how Deng Yaping face off Wang Nan for more years, and Zhang Yining too. Based on the men's side, rule change would have likely hurt Deng to stay on forever.
Some of Deng's former team mate did stay on to play table tennis for other countries and still conintued to have some high position in the world of TT at old age too, so I wouldn't right of Deng had no rivals in terms of playing levels.

I am curious more about what your Beijing team source said about the ban on Ma Long in 2021 WTTC. It is not convincing to me that your source said that Ma Long was asked not to retire 2 years ago for a big money. Apparently, the ban in 2021 WTTC was a sign to ask him to retire. In a recent interview, Ma Long recapped all his WTTC attendance including in 2013 that he got injured before SF loss to Wang Hao. But no one including Ma Long himself dared to mention 2021 WTTC. Anyways, much appreciated if you can explain the ban.

2021 is a very complicated matter.
I've heard few different stories, I will prefer to be silent on a matter that I don't have better facts, else it is just part of rumors.
Ma Long wasn't the only one, so he isn't the "victim" if you are trying to put it out like that. There were 3 front line players "rested" for 2021. It was also covid time and the world was a mess then.

If say there was that retirement sign (since the other 2 has retired at normal age though), Ma Long was till ahead of the younger generations, and the younger generations was loosing more and more to foreigners. Counter question - would you think LGL in WTTC 2021 will think CNT will be so brittle in OG 2024?
Ma Long was almost good enough to make Paris OG, if it wasn't for his slump this year. If he could just hold it for another few months, just maybe he would get another olympic shot. this also means, there is no one left in CNT to shoulder this gold medal responsibility? its a tough one given CNT culture on age and gold medal. They always had next generation to fall back on.

I also like to note, Ma Long wanted to retire even before ZJK did.
This was when he was just before his glory days and as a player behind that of WH and ZJK within the setup
I think age then was around 26 years old.
so imagine, Ma Long still didn't succeed and left CNT early? say by 27 years old... or say if ZJK stayed on longer or ZJK beat Ma Long in Rio 2016 OG?

So you are right, anything is possible, but there is no doubt at least until later in his career, did Ma Long have a smoother journey and success - when obstacles was eliminated from his path, if we can call it that.
So whether he removed the obstacles, or new obstacles wasn't a threat, is his fate and he did make the best of it.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Look at the history to talk about next generation issue:

2003~2006, Wang Liqin, Ma Lin, Wang Hao
2008, Wang Hao, Ma Lin holds the fort with WLQ retiring soon.
2010 Ma Long entries the top 3 list
~ 2013 + ZJK, Wang Hao
2014~ in comes Xu Xin and FZD
Top 3 of ML, XX, FZD stayed on until XX retired (8 year trio?)

The only time where 3 players dominated for so long was that of WLQ, ML and WH and I do believe the years is not as long as Ma Long (there was KLH still around, LGL, LGZ), while the trio double kings and a horse, shared the titles among then. There was no dominator as each of the trio was great.

XX can't really be comparable to any of these players
FZD has been somewhat of a disappointed for not surpassing Ma Long, and he might not even have an OG gold (it might be his only and last chance). One could also say, could FZD match that of the 2 wang and 1 ma?
So Ma long did have very tough WH and ZJK, so was his plan, to fight longevity as he wasn't good enough early on?

Whether WCQ can be in the same sentence as the trios of the past 20 years, I also doubt.
But the "trio" has never been matched since 40+ days. So who ever is number 1 and with 3 never ever to beat him, would likely have grand slams going forward, providing they still beat westerners.
Ie, today's number 3 in LJK (after Ma Long), would he ever threaten FZD and WCQ? or LGY behind him, or LSD?

That is my view on the current CNT going forward. the fight is between 1 and 2, and no longer a trio.
where as Wang Wang Ma, you had some bunch of lefties in CQ and HS, they were good enough to beat foreigners but cannot touch the trio. Today's 4 and 5 are not as strong as CQ/HS against foreigners

 

[rainneverever]

By dominance, do you mean H2H against top players around? Or by winning all kinds of titles, big and small? Or maybe holding the longest WR#1? FYI, Deng Yaping and Ma Long are the only two players who won all possible tournaments (full grand slam). If Fan Zhendong can win 2024 OG, he will be the third. Other Chinese men's grand slammer, Liu Guoiliang, Kong Linghui and Zhang Jike could not even win 1 China National Games, which is highly competitive with no spot limitation (except in 2021, ML was banned as defending champion). BTW, DYP and ML still keep the record of longest WR#1 for women's and men's, even the current rule favors attendance over performance.

H2H is likely the one thing ML had advantage long before his 2nd grand slam and entered the discussion of GOAT, like this post.

It's Time to Recognize that Ma Long is the Greatest Table Tennis Player of All Time

The big discussion in table tennis for many years, Matt Hetherington explains why he believes Ma Long is now the greatest of all time and should be recognized for it.

www.mhtabletennis.com

On international stage, ML 7:3 WLQ/11:4 MLin/11:12 WH; WLQ 13:12 MLin/11:14 WH; MLin 16:10 WH. The trio couldn't dominate each other and they couldn't dominate ML as ML did to FZD (17:7). Previously if anyone brought up ZJK better than ML in the discussion of GOAT, ML 13:6 ZJK H2H was often thrown in. Of course it would then trigger the loop that ML lost to WH in 3 WTTC SF and ZJK beat WH in 2 WTTC finals. If big titles like OG, WTTC and/or WC matter, sorry for Deng Yaping but ML now has the most big titles. He is not the one who attended the most times (like WH attended three OG singles, not to mention players outside CNT like Waldner) though. If big titles are not all, the H2H, full grand slam, records of WR#1 should count.

I still remember some fun discussions quite long time ago in the forum about weighing the titles on the runner-ups. For example, ML's 3 WTTC titles are not big deal because the runner-ups did not have former WTTC ("weaker" opponents). I don't know if the same logic has been applied to other players (poor FZD for beating "nobody" to win 2 WTTCs) and other events (only KLH and ML ever beat a former OC winner and sorry for FZD again). Maybe by this way, we can introduce the old ITTF ranking mechanism to rerank the big titles ;P

 

[rainneverever]

Well, I guess the source will not explain why Ma Long was banned from 2021 China National Games either (2021 NG gold = a ticket to 2021 WTTC). Xu Xin and Liu Shiwen were allowed to play NG and LSW even beat Chen Meng to win bronze.

"2021 is a very complicated matter.
I've heard few different stories, I will prefer to be silent on a matter that I don't have better facts, else it is just part of rumors."

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

rain, i've seen on TTD for some time that you a very loyal Ma Long supporter. I am a fan of him too and admire his technique. I'm not going to try to convince you to accept, nor you to me.
However in this thread, I have spoken the same thing over, I think 2 or 3 time already. So I won't repeat there.

In terms of major title count.
and yep, a pity for Deng, who had 1 to "2 at most (if she didn't retire that year)" world cups to attend, since world cup was a men's only competition prior to 1996. Its always difficult to compare women's to men's in those era where fairness is rare.
If any, WTTC and OG should be grand slam for women's before 1996 - I think that is fair, don't you think? you can't punish players if there is no WC to win... team's world cup only though, but we don't really take teams into consideration.

Deng has 2 Grand slams, with an extra WTTC win.
a pity she lost in 1993, being her "only" failure on grand slam events (I didn't go count how many failures Ma Long had). The only other failure was 1989 WTTC when Deng was only 16 years old, or 1 year after finally getting into CNT

In her career from 1988 (entering CNT) to 1997 retiring, this is a pretty dominating track record, especially as an 18 year old world champion in 1991, until retiring at 23/24 years old.

1991 WTTC	gold
1992 OG	gold
1995 WTTC	gold
1996 OG	gold
1996 WC (1st womens world cup)	gold
1997 WTTC	gold

if Deng was male, perhaps she will play on. women in sport didn't equate to good income back then.
I recall she said one of the reasons she retired was become some other athletics champion (women) had to sell her medal to buy food.
So I think one mustn't forget life as female athletes in the 1990s

PS. I went to count, Ma Long failed 9 times, otherwise, he could of add to his tally count of WC and WTTC with ease and we don't need to find reasons about 2021...lol
He failed more times than winning these major titles
In fact if we use this percentage, it is clear Ma Long didn't dominate in his full career.

I'm done with it, as these are all stats that anyone can pull up and compare.

 

[dingyibvs]

What the heck? I've never seen a sports GOAT discussion involving both men and women. They compete in entirely different arenas, comparing between them is like arguing about if Ma Long or Federer is the GOAT. They can each be the GOAT in their own arena, they're not competing against each other in this just like they wouldn't be competing against each other on the court.

As far as I'm concerned Deng Yaping is the GOAT for women's TT and Ma Long is the GOAT for men's TT. I wonder if Tennis boards have discussions about whether Federer or Serena is the GOAT

 

[Ian]

I'm surprised at some of the names that have come up before Wang Liqin. Between 2000-2008 he was the king!

For me there's not much of a debate to be had around who the GOAT is, it's clearly Ma Long. And I'm not even a fan of his! I much prefer other players as I find their styles more exciting and interesting to watch. But in terms of sheer success and longevity, Ma Long stands out. I'd give an honourable mention to Waldner, as I think he's the one that has come closest to transcending the sport.

 

[\_Kairos_/]

What the heck? I've never seen a sports GOAT discussion involving both men and women. They compete in entirely different arenas, comparing between them is like arguing about if Ma Long or Federer is the GOAT.

That's what I was thinking, too. Perhaps Tony mentioned Deng Yaping - in part - just in order to show what dominance really looks like. But Deng or Zhang Yining or Ding Ning are simply not part of this discussion. Fact.
But the thing is also, that no men since the 80s dominated tt like Deng Yaping did.

While Tony made some valid points (sort of) regarding Ma Long "against" him being the GOAT, you can find arguments against any other GOAT contender, be it Wang Hao, Wang Liqin, Zhang Jike, Waldner or "whoever". But Ma Long is the least "vulnerable" in that regard, simply because there are so many other points that speak for him.

Would, hypothetically speaking, Wang Hao claim in front of a camera that he is the GOAT? Yes, he beat Ma Long in the Worlds like 2 or 3 times, but he never won OG and the Worlds only 1 time. Less tournement victorys overall, less weeks at No.1 and a negative H2H record vs. Ma Long. He would make a fool of himself if he did that. Same for Zhang Jike. Yes, he peaeked a little earlier in the Olympics and the Worlds, but he was only relevant for 6-7 years and his H2H vs. Ma Long is more than terrible.

I'm surprised at some of the names that have come up before Wang Liqin. Between 2000-2008 he was the king!

Well, ne never won OG or the World Cup unfortunately. But I generally agree with your sentiment.
Waldner was simply the prototyp of the modern tt player. He brought the game to never levels...

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Perhaps Tony mentioned Deng Yaping - in part - just in order to show what dominance really looks like.

thank you for reading to understand, as the word Great has a very deep meaning and Deng fits that word correctly imo. Ma Long for sure fits the most major titles of all time. He was only great for some time in his fully career though.

While Tony made some valid points (sort of) regarding Ma Long "against" him being the GOAT, you can find arguments against any other GOAT contender, be it Wang Hao, Wang Liqin, Zhang Jike, Waldner or "whoever". But Ma Long is the least "vulnerable" in that regard, simply because there are so many other points that speak for him.

you are right, Ma Long has a lot for him, but I like to share this to show how great he has been in some years and not in some years.

World Cup,
Ma Long took part in 9 editions, only winning 3 (he didn't qualify for 2010, 2011, 2013, 2018)
greatness ratio of 3/9 = 33.3% or 3/13 = 23%?
(2019 he lost SF to Harimoto and 3/4 to LYJ)

World Champs
Ma Long took part in 7 and only winning 3
greatness ratio of 3/7 = 42.8%?

Olympics
Ma Long took 2 out of 2 (2016 and 2020), but he failed to qualify for 2008 or 2012

No doubt most titles, but probably also the most attempt from CNT too.

I don't have time to go work out the Win percentage ratio on where Ma Long ranks within CNT men's team to see how dominance he is.
But for the above, the total is 8 wins out of 18 participation (and there is 4 failed attempts + 2 failed OG attemp)
= 44% or 33%

Deng Yaping
had 6 wins out of 8 attempt (including her first year as a kid still), = 75%
Deng's success in domination is double that of Ma Long in a way.

I know it is unfair to take last 2022 to 2024 for Ma Long, since he is "over age", but where his stats hurts the most is when the WLQ, Ma Lin, WH and ZJK blocked him for most of his 20s
and we only using Ma Long from 2008 (20 years old) and not earlier where he was less of a threat