Penhold Rubber Selection Advice

[JJ Ng]

I would strongly recommend putting long pips on the backhand side. Imo RPB is close to useless in the amateur space because the shakehand backhand is simply miles better with better leverage and stability, and getting into BH-BH topspin rallies is exactly what you don't want.

When I see someone using RPB (who never trained since young), I get a laugh because it's such a glaring weakness that I will target it again and again.

I almost never seen someone develop a super strong RPB as an adult learner but I've seen lots of highly effective long pips users on the backhand side who twiddle, who learnt it way after childhood.

I agree with that. I played with Jpen and long pips on the back, before RPB was invented. I quite enjoyed using long pips.

Nowadays, I also watch Chinese youtube channels where the cpen uses long pips as the main rubber with occasion RPB. It looks like if you know how to use long pips such as hit, chop block, punch, spin, etc. etc. it is quite effective.

I did ask my club coach about going back to cpen with RPB. He looked at me seriously and said you have to use only exclusively one year of RPB for everything coming to your backhand to be good at it. In otherwords, he said I suck and I should now stick with shakehand. I absolutely agree with him.

 

[mihalichtheone]

I think the problem could just be you hey.

If you take a pool of penhold players that uses DHS rubbers on the forehand.
I am very confident that players who properly train and play table tennis, they will likely have a 99.9% chance of using DHS H3 #22 on the forehand.

Obviously, I'm not sure if you fit the category of "properly train and play table tennis", but to give you the benefit of doubt, you are going to be that 0.1% that will go skyline

So, I cannot agree with your statement that Hurricane doesn't suit penhold.
In all honesty, my first reaction yesterday was "not fit for forum" and i'm trying to be as polite as possible.

I am now learning penhold and this is the first multiball session (part of it), played with cheapest non NEO 40 degrees commercial H3 boosted with 2 layers a couple of weeks ago (so, not much booster left).

I think H3 suits FH for penhold perfectly, though I ordered tg2 NEO 40 degress just to try it out.

@Tony's Table Tennis do you think I made mistake ordering the rubber?

I also have a couple of videos of my plays, Chinese penhold is cool and looks cool. Will learn it further, just cause I like it so much.


edit: forgot to add, that blade that I was using is Nittaku S7 (surprisingly good and well controlled blade, also crispy feeling for 7 ply all wood blade) and ordered 729 Focus Snipe 3 to use on the BH side, since it's light and it will allow me to learn RPB, which currently sucks.

 

[JJ Ng]

I am now learning penhold and this is the first multiball session (part of it), played with cheapest non NEO 40 degrees commercial H3 boosted with 2 layers a couple of weeks ago (so, not much booster left).

I think H3 suits FH for penhold perfectly, though I ordered tg2 NEO 40 degress just to try it out.

@Tony's Table Tennis do you think I made mistake ordering the rubber?

I also have a couple of videos of my plays, Chinese penhold is cool and looks cool. Will learn it further, just cause I like it so much.


edit: forgot to add, that blade that I was using is Nittaku S7 (surprisingly good and well controlled blade, also crispy feeling for 7 ply all wood blade) and ordered 729 Focus Snipe 3 to use on the BH side, since it's light and it will allow me to learn RPB, which currently sucks.

Your form looks fine to me. Just as long as you stick with commercial, you are not making any mistakes by trying skyline v.s reguar hurricane.

Once you decide to try penhold, just be ready to move. You should play whatever style you enjoy.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I am now learning penhold and this is the first multiball session (part of it), played with cheapest non NEO 40 degrees commercial H3 boosted with 2 layers a couple of weeks ago (so, not much booster left).

I think H3 suits FH for penhold perfectly, though I ordered tg2 NEO 40 degress just to try it out.

@Tony's Table Tennis do you think I made mistake ordering the rubber?

I also have a couple of videos of my plays, Chinese penhold is cool and looks cool. Will learn it further, just cause I like it so much.


edit: forgot to add, that blade that I was using is Nittaku S7 (surprisingly good and well controlled blade, also crispy feeling for 7 ply all wood blade) and ordered 729 Focus Snipe 3 to use on the BH side, since it's light and it will allow me to learn RPB, which currently sucks.

since i'm no longer giving coaching advices, I will pm you my reply

 

[Dominikk85]

I think for one sided PH a tacky rubber isn't so good because of TPB which is more like flat hit and blocking which isn't so great with tacky rubber.

Two sided PH I assume most Chinese play tacky on FH and tensor on BH like they do on SH?

 

[Dominikk85]

I would strongly recommend putting long pips on the backhand side. Imo RPB is close to useless in the amateur space because the shakehand backhand is simply miles better with better leverage and stability, and getting into BH-BH topspin rallies is exactly what you don't want.

When I see someone using RPB (who never trained since young), I get a laugh because it's such a glaring weakness that I will target it again and again.

I almost never seen someone develop a super strong RPB as an adult learner but I've seen lots of highly effective long pips users on the backhand side who twiddle, who learnt it way after childhood.

I think RPB is much easier to learn for SH players than for classic penholders.

I switched from SH to Two sided penhold and learned it pretty quickly. I'm bad at it but not worse than I was with SH.

I feel that RPB isn't different from SH, maybe it has disadvantages at certain angles but it is mostly the same.

On the other hand adult classic PH players tend to have a hard time learning RPB because their TPB is so engrained.

 

[Lazer]

I think RPB is much easier to learn for SH players than for classic penholders.

I switched from SH to Two sided penhold and learned it pretty quickly. I'm bad at it but not worse than I was with SH.

I feel that RPB isn't different from SH, maybe it has disadvantages at certain angles but it is mostly the same.

On the other hand adult classic PH players tend to have a hard time learning RPB because their TPB is so engrained.

I never tried, but it may be harder to master but when you do it seems to be very efficient. It feels like it’s more natural for top spin shots too.

Cheers
L-zr

 

[SFF_lib]

I am now learning penhold and this is the first multiball session (part of it), played with cheapest non NEO 40 degrees commercial H3 boosted with 2 layers a couple of weeks ago (so, not much booster left).

I think H3 suits FH for penhold perfectly, though I ordered tg2 NEO 40 degress just to try it out.

@Tony's Table Tennis do you think I made mistake ordering the rubber?

I also have a couple of videos of my plays, Chinese penhold is cool and looks cool. Will learn it further, just cause I like it so much.


edit: forgot to add, that blade that I was using is Nittaku S7 (surprisingly good and well controlled blade, also crispy feeling for 7 ply all wood blade) and ordered 729 Focus Snipe 3 to use on the BH side, since it's light and it will allow me to learn RPB, which currently sucks.

TG2 is quite different. It still has the old formula on the topsheet, hence quite tacky. The new H3 isn't as tacky so prepare to adjust your technique for TG2.

Nonetheless TG2 is still my favourite rubber, not beginner friendly.

I played Snipe 3 on BH, great rubber. Not sensitive to spin, hence good for block and punch

 

[mihalichtheone]

TG2 is quite different. It still has the old formula on the topsheet, hence quite tacky. The new H3 isn't as tacky so prepare to adjust your technique for TG2.

Nonetheless TG2 is still my favourite rubber, not beginner friendly.

I played Snipe 3 on BH, great rubber. Not sensitive to spin, hence good for block and punch

Any difference between TG2 Neo and non-Neo version?

As for snipe 3 - exactly, I don't think I will progress fast (or use strong loop) on the BH side, so will stick to blocking and punching for now, it kinda already worked during my last session.

 

[SFF_lib]

Any difference between TG2 Neo and non-Neo version?

As for snipe 3 - exactly, I don't think I will progress fast (or use strong loop) on the BH side, so will stick to blocking and punching for now, it kinda already worked during my last session.

Both are hard as a brick due to thick hard topsheet.

The non-Neo needs boosting

 

[JJ Ng]

Any difference between TG2 Neo and non-Neo version?

As for snipe 3 - exactly, I don't think I will progress fast (or use strong loop) on the BH side, so will stick to blocking and punching for now, it kinda already worked during my last session.

I have experience with H3 regular and H3 neo.

I have boosted both. And after you reboosted a couple times, you cannot really tell the difference.

Neo supposedly pre-boosted in the factory. The price difference is not that big so might as well get the boosted neo version.

Also neo version comes with a layer of glue already applied, whereas the regular version, no such glue layer was applied at the factory.

 

[blahness]

I think RPB is much easier to learn for SH players than for classic penholders.

I switched from SH to Two sided penhold and learned it pretty quickly. I'm bad at it but not worse than I was with SH.

I feel that RPB isn't different from SH, maybe it has disadvantages at certain angles but it is mostly the same.

On the other hand adult classic PH players tend to have a hard time learning RPB because their TPB is so engrained.

Yes this is true, but still RPB has the problem of less range, less blade area, more wobbly grip which means worse defence and harder to be consistent. Also down the line is way harder with RPB than it is with shakehand especially the fade version. TPB can be a lot scarier than RPB due to its disruptive qualities and disruptiveness is extremely important in the amateur space.

 

[JJ Ng]

Yes this is true, but still RPB has the problem of less range, less blade area, more wobbly grip which means worse defence and harder to be consistent. Also down the line is way harder with RPB than it is with shakehand especially the fade version. TPB can be a lot scarier than RPB due to its disruptive qualities and disruptiveness is extremely important in the amateur space.

I said this before. With inverted rubber, it is hard to execute RPB without fingers slipping.

If the other side is long pips, grip is a lot easier.

To be fair, at the amateur level, RPB often has a lot of side spins which poses problems for the opponents. But as to be fair, RPB at the amateur level is not as steady as shakehand BH loop.

Xu Xin is known to fish using traditional penhold style away from the table, maybe due to the less surface area as you discussed.

I don't find TPB to be that disruptive but maybe it is because I am used to that type of style of playing growing up. The only disruptive part about TPB to me is its ability to do chop block easier. But outside of chop blocking, it is no more disruptive.

Wang Hao's style really was innovative. Ma Lin still used TPB a lot with occasional RPB. I don't think I ever seen Wang Hao push in the traditional TPB manner. I think he flicked and looped everything that comes to his backhand.

Xu Xin, even though he came after Wang Hao, did combine quite a bit of TPB with RPB, especially when he is over the table.

 

[blahness]

I said this before. With inverted rubber, it is hard to execute RPB without fingers slipping.

If the other side is long pips, grip is a lot easier.

To be fair, at the amateur level, RPB often has a lot of side spins which poses problems for the opponents. But as to be fair, RPB at the amateur level is not as steady as shakehand BH loop.

Xu Xin is known to fish using traditional penhold style away from the table, maybe due to the less surface area as you discussed.

I don't find TPB to be that disruptive but maybe it is because I am used to that type of style of playing growing up. The only disruptive part about TPB to me is its ability to do chop block easier. But outside of chop blocking, it is no more disruptive.

Wang Hao's style really was innovative. Ma Lin still used TPB a lot with occasional RPB. I don't think I ever seen Wang Hao push in the traditional TPB manner. I think he flicked and looped everything that comes to his backhand.

Xu Xin, even though he came after Wang Hao, did combine quite a bit of TPB with RPB, especially when he is over the table.

It takes a huge amount of training to get to Wang Hao or Felix Lebrun levels of RPB, and it involves an incredible amount of technique and practice to make it better than the shakehand BH in BH-BH rallies. Shakehand BH is way, way easier imo. Also more sidespin = less topspin and less Magnus effect which makes it even harder to land the shot.

TPB can reduce energy or punch block or chopblock or fade block or dead block or topspin block, all with very similar start movements. It's way more versatile than the RPB imo, and for me I fear playing against it a lot more. Also there is no middle weakness and the stroke is incredibly small so they can take the ball very early. Biggest weakness of TPB is opening loops because there's none to speak of lol, and the available TPB opening loop methods all suck in terms of reliability and smoothness, spin and power.

But long pips really changes up the game a lot if you have the classic nasty penhold serve, receive and FH loopkill.

 

[hclnnkhg]

I said this before. With inverted rubber, it is hard to execute RPB without fingers slipping.

If the other side is long pips, grip is a lot easier.

To be fair, at the amateur level, RPB often has a lot of side spins which poses problems for the opponents. But as to be fair, RPB at the amateur level is not as steady as shakehand BH loop.

Xu Xin is known to fish using traditional penhold style away from the table, maybe due to the less surface area as you discussed.

I don't find TPB to be that disruptive but maybe it is because I am used to that type of style of playing growing up. The only disruptive part about TPB to me is its ability to do chop block easier. But outside of chop blocking, it is no more disruptive.

Wang Hao's style really was innovative. Ma Lin still used TPB a lot with occasional RPB. I don't think I ever seen Wang Hao push in the traditional TPB manner. I think he flicked and looped everything that comes to his backhand.

Xu Xin, even though he came after Wang Hao, did combine quite a bit of TPB with RPB, especially when he is over the table.

At amateur level, the backhand isn't very good with SH either until you cross a certain level. Whilst I believe TPB can be effective at amateur level (any style can, to be fair), one key factor IMO is access to coaching. With RPB, a SH coach could still translate most of what they know about SH BH to RPB. It will be a lot harder to find a coach that really knows how to coach TPB, or other less popular styles.

 

[longle]

The skyline series was designed by dhs for penholders, the hurricanes for shakehand players. All of the penhold greats use skylines (xu xin, ma lin, wang hao, etc), while shakehand players(ma long, fan, wang chuqin, wang liqin, lin gaoyuan, etc) use hurricane. It's not a me problem, it's simple observation and a lot of personal experience. They use completely different top sheets, since hurricane is highly tacky, while tg's are hybrids. And of course the pimple structure is completely different. The skylines also have a bit of surface tension, not the case with hurricane. The sponges also are a bit different, generally the skylines are a bit more springy and softer. Not by a lot, it's very subtle.

I also think that the Skyline suits penhold more. Of course H3 works great, but somehow TG3 makes me comfortable than H3 in matches. Still haven't found a solid document about the purpose of the Skyline development so the idea is based on my observation and experience only.

there was also an old thread which debated this https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/dhs-h3n-h3-vs-tg2-tg3-difference.24415/

 

[Topspinslinger]

When i played Penhold i used Donic acuda s1, It felt just right on my wooden blade for forehand. I tried s2 for backhand it felt too soft, but control was good. I never tried DHS when i played penhold, now with shakehand it is my forehand rubber forever.

 

[ma23]

I also think that the Skyline suits penhold more. Of course H3 works great, but somehow TG3 makes me comfortable than H3 in matches. Still haven't found a solid document about the purpose of the Skyline development so the idea is based on my observation and experience only.

there was also an old thread which debated this https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/dhs-h3n-h3-vs-tg2-tg3-difference.24415/

The Skyline series is developed after the 2005 WTTC to suit the needs of penholders, Skyline 2 was developed for Ma Lin, Skyline 3 was developed for Wang Hao.

 

[Centaur]

Want to add to this discussion as it's my junkie junk, just bear in mind I'm not a very good player.

First went (some years ago) with Skyline when switching to pen - having been Tenergy, didn't really get on with it myself. But wouldn't mind trying again.
Since then have tried (on FH) Tenergy 80/64, Diginics 80/05, Victas TDE, Hurricane 3 50degree, quite a few more I cannot remember, Omega VII Hyper, Jeykll Hide Hybrid (which am using now).
My issue with many of these is the weight. The Hyper (a lot too) and Hurricane too heavy for example.

Also, have 3 blades. 1 is a soft inner carbon and 2 outer ZLCs - i do like a harder rubber. Cannot get on at all with soft rubbers. Took the TDE off the inner Hinoki and put it on a ZLC side of a XIOM Ice Cream and it feels great and still really spinny. Of the rubbers I liked - loved the D05, was Ok with the Hurricane, still testing the TDE of which the tackiness does drop fast but still spinning. The J&H is a bullet.

BH wise, have tried not so many but as soon as I tried Omega VII Asia I stuck with it - not killer fast (like the J&H which is extreme) but just suits very well, so I could consider that a recommendation.
Trying next up is O7Tour i which is similar in speed on the slower bat to J&H on my fastest. O7Ti on the backhand is way faster than O7Asia - I will struggle.

Not sure how that can be, but hopefully is, helpful.

Enjoy.