Producing side underspin on the chiquita

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Yes that’s a brain fart from my side but another post from me says differently.

The point here is:
1. By hitting the ball pretty much anywhere with an upwards moment it’s impossible to induce under spin.
2. Then in the original post shows the player doing an upward motion.

Cheers
L-zr

bad camera angle, if there was side view to compare and close up, you might see that the upward motion is after contact.
if there was any upward contact, it would also be minimal, as his spin was generated from the motion (from how we see it as the audience facing him) from left of the screen to right of the screen, below the middle of the ball.

So here is the sequence of motion, under, side, up. The key is the upward is to not drag the ball up but to drag it forward.
So it becomes and under side spin.

If he was to drag the ball (with more force/energy) more on upward, then it will eliminate the underspin he added and change it to top spin.
I think this is where people are confused.

Some times, these things are so difficult to explain, as it isn't only action, but the amount of power in his grip (or lack of) that would alter the spin generation of the ball with certain actions.

As I said earlier, angle, contact spot on blade, contact spot on ball and now I've added power in the grip of the ball. It all matters.

Never the less, I'm ending my participation in this thread by saying, it is possible.
And people can actually go try it out.
if you can serve it out, you can BH flick it out.

 

[Lazer]

bad camera angle, if there was side view to compare and close up, you might see that the upward motion is after contact.
if there was any upward contact, it would also be minimal, as his spin was generated from the motion (from how we see it as the audience facing him) from left of the screen to right of the screen, below the middle of the ball.

So here is the sequence of motion, under, side, up. The key is the upward is to not drag the ball up but to drag it forward.
So it becomes and under side spin.

If he was to drag the ball (with more force/energy) more on upward, then it will eliminate the underspin he added and change it to top spin.
I think this is where people are confused.

Some times, these things are so difficult to explain, as it isn't only action, but the amount of power in his grip (or lack of) that would alter the spin generation of the ball with certain actions.

As I said earlier, angle, contact spot on blade, contact spot on ball and now I've added power in the grip of the ball. It all matters.

Never the less, I'm ending my participation in this thread by saying, it is possible.
And people can actually go try it out.
if you can serve it out, you can BH flick it out.

Then what you basically is saying is that it is a “push” type of flick at contact. Like scoping an ice cream with the spon forward. This also means that the front of the racket must be pointing slightly down and forward at contact. This makes more sense but sure as hell it doesn’t look like it.

Cheers
L-zr

 

[NextLevel]

At 4 mins 30 seconds in, Coach Meng literally describes his intent is what Blahness and Tony intended (whatever you think of the actual physics). Let's stop this nonsense immediately.

 

[Lazer]

Hey some of us may like this discussion ignore the thread if you dont.

 

[NextLevel]

Hey some of us may like this discussion ignore the thread if you dont.

Enjoying the discussion is fine. Does that mean one should lie and troll about the video's intent as well?

 

[ben1229]

This is fun, you Guys keep it up, I will just watch.

 

[Lazer]

Enjoying the discussion is fine. Does that mean one should lie and troll about the video's intent as well?

Have yet to see anybody lie in this thread…

 

[NextLevel]

Have yet to see anybody lie in this thread…

I just gave a clear example. James Z is accusing blahness and Tony of not understanding the video and making up an interpretation that the poster did not intend. https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...e-underspin-on-the-chiquita.31615/post-416959

I just posted to go to 4 mins 30 seconds in the video where the coach describes what he is doing like blahness and Tony said.

If the problem here is that people can't read subtitles and posts so that they understand what they and others are talking about, then it all makes more sense now.

 

[Lazer]

I just gave a clear example. James Z is accusing blahness and Tony of not understanding the video and making up an interpretation that the poster did not intend. https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...e-underspin-on-the-chiquita.31615/post-416959

I just posted to go to 4 mins 30 seconds in the video where the coach describes what he is doing like blahness and Tony said.

If the problem here is that people can't read subtitles and posts so that they understand what they and others are talking about, then it all makes more sense now.

Not lying, difference of opinion as I see it.

And automatically translated subtitles are mostly unintelligible. The only thing I could get out of it was when he showed were the ball was supposedly hit. I only have my phone and the subtitles was too small and too quick.

Lot of misunderstandings but no lies.

Cheers
L-zr

 

[NextLevel]

Not lying, difference of opinion as I see it.

And automatically translated subtitles are mostly unintelligible. The only thing I could get out of it was when he showed were the ball was supposedly hit. I only have my phone and the subtitles was too small and too quick.

Lot of misunderstandings but no lies.

Cheers
L-zr

Okay. If you cant read the subtitles, then you can't tell what the video is trying to say unless you speak Japanese so why are you arguing with someone who has read the subtitles and is telling you what the video says in the subtitles? Again this is a separate issue from whether you agree with the coach or not based on your superior understanding of physics. Saying that someone made up something that the video clearly says is not interpretation, and using the fact that you cant read the subtitles as an excuse just means you should read the subtitles and then apologize for the "mistake" of claiming blahness made it up if your goal is honesty.

 

[NextLevel]

The coach is NOT saying he is cerating underspin on his chiquita against incoming backspin.
That is your ridiculous interpretation and or lost in translation.

But it just does not matter. Coach says he contacting the back bottom side (see my attachment) & it is NOT possible to create back spin at that contact point on the ball with rackethead moving upwards.

But if you want to continue bullying others who disagree with you and defending Tony & blaness, two players who have no clue of spins in table tennis, go right ahead & enjoymaking a fool of yourselves.

Can you please quote the subtitles that support your view given the precise reference I have provided to the video at 4 mins 30 seconds Io 4 mins 40 seconds in and how you are willing to reconcile your position on the intent on blahness and Tony with Coach Meng"s stated intent?

Again, this is without getting into whether you think underspin is created or not. This is what the coach stated himself based on the subtitles which you are now proceeding to say I am bullying by calling your attention to. This is going to be interesting.

 

[NextLevel]

The relevant subtitles: "Ordinary chiquita is topspin but chiquita swinging sideways, it becomes underspin."

There is more commentary that shows that it is difficult to apply the technique to a topspin ball so the technique clearly relies on coming across the bottom of the ball similar to strawberry push. Again, this is without respect to what you think the actual physics displays. The fact that you are actually describing what the subtitles said, but you are now going on to talk about the physics and using that to state that is not what the coach is claiming to do is weird.

 

[blahness]

I think the biggest issue here from Lazer earlier statement is he says if server serves underspin and if returned with side spin, the ball will go back underspin.

To me, the ball hitting the net will be the first result
for it to go over the net, the ball will not be underspin,
Only underspin contact can send the ball back underspin.

if side under, it will go back underspin
if side top, the ball will not go back underspin

Schlagers example is to show different places of contact results in different spin. He showed but didn't talk about different contact point on the blade too. He only showed angle of contact.

Schlager's top spin serve with underspin action is really even older school. The theory there is, if you don't hit underspin, it will be top spin and then using angle and contact point of ball/blade.
Some times these technical explanation is too deep for people who are stuck with 40 year old debate on long pips.

I thought I was going into a 10 year old debate. Now it feels like 30 year old debate to explain Schlager lol
Some times it is very tiring talking to people on TTD, especially when you not sure if troll is sincere or just back to trolling

Yeah the two main trolls on TTD (whom everyone knows) are in the thread 😂 Tbh I had wished for some more interesting technical and gameplay discussion on the execution part of the stroke (including how to play against it) but the trolls have just derailed it completely.

Agree that table tennis is incredibly technical and there are a lot of minute details that normal people will miss. On serves, an upwards movement can be underspin if it brushes through the bottom of the ball (like in Schlager's explanation), and a downwards movement can be topspin if it brushed across the back of the ball. The fingers can do a lot of magic on varying the force directions and how the ball is brushed.

 

[Kopp]

Let's blame the video

 

[NextLevel]

Reference the video subtitles for your claim that the coach is being misrepresented. Not your understanding of the physics. I have quoted the aspects of the subtitles that stated his intent.

Stop trying to explain my purported confusion. Quote what the coach said that gives you insight into his intent since you are claiming I misunderstand what the coach is claiming to do. He points out clearly that what he calls a regular Chiquita comes over the top of the ball to generate topspin. He is deliberately not playing over the top of the ball and emphasizes that in the part of the video to which I referred you. The main point of calling it a backspin Chiquita is that it doesn't have a topspin orientation - there are many sidespin balls that do have a topspin orientation and you can loop them largely like regular topspin balls including what the coach calls the regular Chiquita. That said, we need to separate what you think about the physics which is your prerogative from your insidious claims that the coach is being misrepresented, which show your inherent mendacity.

But based on where he says he contacts the ball (back left bottom & back) & with the racket moving upwards , it just is not possible to produce back spin. PERIOD
Again the misundestamnding on your part & blahness's part & Tony'sTableTeniis' part is that you confuse heavy side spin with back spin. You are also confused because the server puts th e coach's return into the net. That happens because the opponent is angling the racket against the incoming side spin. Teh side spin is more dominant than the top spin on the ball in this case & that is why it goes downwards as if the incoming ball has backspin. This is what you & blahaness & Tony'sTableTennis get confused about but refuse to think it thru.

Let me explain this with this example. Two amateur righties are playing each other. One rightie sends a hook loop from his forehand wide to the othe rrighties forehand. If the receiving rightie tried to angle the racket towards the left (because that is where the table is ) of him the return will pull even further left & most likely will end up in the bottom of the net if the upward angle is not enough. A safet return for an amateur would be to aim towards the backhand of the opponent.
Rule of thumb is that you always go down the line (& not cros-court) against balls breakingaway from your body to the left or right. But if the ball is breaking into your body you can (or rather should) go cross court.
For pros it does not matter. They can reverse any spin & place any ball anywhere as they like but in most cases even they don't but they know instinctively where to go on the table

I have explained all this clearly on the side spins webpage at the website below.
https://tacticaltabletennis.blogspot.com/2023/07/index.html
Cheers

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Let's blame the video

I'm not high level, and when a super coach (provincial head coach in China) tells me it is possible. I listen and learn

This is the same as the time when I posted, usatt 1500 trying to correct me on technical part of table tennis.
well, James is like 1500 and trying to correct 3000 level players/coaches.

Nothing wrong with the video, it has everything wrong with low level players think they know better than proper experts (especially high level coaches in the world) and he even claims the high level coach can be wrong too.
Okay. yeah, they all wrong lol

 

[Kopp]

I'm not high level, and when a super coach (provincial head coach in China) tells me it is possible. I listen and learn

This is the same as the time when I posted, usatt 1500 trying to correct me on technical part of table tennis.
well, James is like 1500 and trying to correct 3000 level players/coaches.

Nothing wrong with the video, it has everything wrong with low level players think they know better than proper experts (especially high level coaches in the world) and he even claims the high level coach can be wrong too.
Okay. yeah, they all wrong lol

After seeing the video again, the ball appeared to be travelling much slower than a normal BH flick. It may indicate that there are some downspin there. Nevertheless, nothing wrong with being a low-level player and giving comments

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

After seeing the video again, the ball appeared to be travelling much slower than a normal BH flick. It may indicate that there are some downspin there. Nevertheless, nothing wrong with being a low-level player and giving comments

giving comment is all cool
But making "lying" accusations is really totally different.
you never know if it is sincere stupidity, or just trolling. I believe it is the later.

That troll have told me to use surrounds so that our semi pro players don't get injured (by standing on the ball).
Of all the balls that got stood on, the only injured party was the ball
He needs to tell Liu Guo Liang to use surrounds to protect the players health, cause we all wrong and only he is right.
what was his level 1500? 1200?
This reminds me of flat earth society people

 

[NextLevel]

After seeing the video again, the ball appeared to be travelling much slower than a normal BH flick. It may indicate that there are some downspin there. Nevertheless, nothing wrong with being a low-level player and giving comments

Usually, the better the player, the more aware they are about the limits of what they claim to know, even when they know a lot. It's not really about the playing level but about why you feel so confident arguing with better players vs understanding their perspective. Better players have already shown the ability to be successful apprentices repeatedly (I don't know anyone, especially an adult learner but even kids, who gets to USATT 1800 without significant coaching and training so I have respect for that level even if many consider it low).

 

[ttmonster]

Usually, the better the player, the more aware they are about the limits of what they claim to know, even when they know a lot. It's not really about the playing level but about why you feel so confident arguing with better players vs understanding their perspective. Better players have already shown the ability to be successful apprentices repeatedly (I don't know anyone, especially an adult learner but even kids, who gets to USATT 1800 without significant coaching and training so I have respect for that level even if many consider it low).

May be I have an inkling of what’s going on … with all that he has claimed starting from how how he has run tons of high level tourneys , banned people who don’t obey his command to use or not use certain rubbers … to how everybody who don’t bow to him is discriminating against people who use long pips … he cannot be proved wrong about anything he says related to table tennis . Because that would be a serious disqualification for somebody who wants to start his own little cult within table tennis … “Let’s make table tennis great again !”…. that’s what this is about !…. and hence the modus operandi of insulting everybody who don’t agree with him and then keeping on repeating the truth that he creates with scant regard for what people are really saying … because he thinks he can speak them to existence …