Question: What makes Ma Long's strokes so Unique?

[Siva Schopenhauer]

My point is I feel Ma long uses his core body strength and technique to achieve that explosive forehand. For a guy who looks like a Zen master, and performing on the contrary makes him unique.

I indeed started watching table tennis in the advent of ML and ZJK era, but I do have went back to the past to learn from the legends of the past.

WL is kind of like Muhammad Ali, each FH accumulates the pressure on the opponents. I am not arguing on the basis of technique alone but the way it looks, the power generated, top spin arc and so on. Indeed on most of these parameters WL is still on of the greatest. But, it was speed glue era and smaller balls which make it look much more better that it should. Doing without speed glues and in 40 mm ball is quite an achievement. ZJK is still powerful on strokes but ML is like a recoiling gun one bullet after another.

Ryu and ML are in my opinion the fastest with FH.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I know someone who played both Ma Lin and Wang Liqin and said that Ma Lin's forehand frightened him more. In a sense, Wang Liqin's forehand was in part about how consistently powerful it was when you got into a rally. Once Wang Liqin got past serve and serve return, he almost always won in the rally with amazing loops and counterloops.

Yep. I was looking for footage of some Ma Lin Crazy FH shots like that video of Ryu Seung Min. Ma Lin's FH was legitimately FREAKY. Perhaps the only thing that stood in the way of multiple WTTC Singles titles was Wang Liqin.

But, for some reason I feel like it is a little unfair to really compare penhold FH to shakehand FH. There are so many penhold players who developed outrageous FHs. I am not sure if it is that they had to because the traditional penhold BH is too much of a liability at the TOP LEVELS without the crazy FH. Or if it is something about the grip that allows for more power from the FH.

I do think something about the penhold grip lends itself to outrageous FH capabilities. But maybe that is changing. Ma Long and Wang Liqin ARE, TRUTHFULLY, pretty close to some top penhold FHs.


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[Siva Schopenhauer]

I know the feeling. The problem is that it is this same feeling that leads to beginners trying to "emulate" pros by hitting the ball as hard as possible rather than learning to spin the ball and improving their spin generation and then learning to hit fast balls with high levels of spin.

In other words, the feelings can be completely wrong when they do not understand the nuances of what is happening. Of course, the feelings do have merit, but on something as complicated as this, we need the right kind of balance between feeling and facts.

As long as you aren't trying to claim your feelings are infallible or that you are an expert on the issue (none of us here really are, though those of us with more table tennis experience might have relevant insights to share), it would help to share the basis of your feelings so that there is more information we can use to tease out some of the views you, me and others may have on this subject and how we all arrive at them. Of course, you may not be able to identify all of them, but just what you can identify and write about here will be helpful.

I know the feeling. The problem is that it is this same feeling that leads to beginners trying to "emulate" pros by hitting the ball as hard as possible rather than learning to spin the ball and improving their spin generation and then learning to hit fast balls with high levels of spin.

I too can take something out of context and speak about why they feel iike imbeciles but it doesn't really help with the subject. It is just funny when you try to keep pouncing on me for What I am trying to do. It is easy to flip the other side and speak about mulititude of technical failures in one's game, but it doesn't interest me

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

From a purely mechanical standpoint the only significant difference is how his left arm is deployed. Everything else is basic drive mechanics i.e. the weight shift/torso rotation/hip extension etc... Most players use the left arm to some degree, FB comes to mind, but ML takes it to higher level. The most obvious effect is that it accelerates his upper torso rotation/twist as he is coming into the ball. It's the conservation of angular momentum exemplified by the spinning ice skater. ML first extends his left arm as he orients to the ball then quickly retracts it which helps speed up his torso rotation prior to ball contact. ML is probably the smallest player on the the squad from a mass standpoint so the question isn't how is his FH so powerful, but how does a player that small hit such a big FH.

On a more subtle note his left arm acts as counter weight which helps him keep his balance as he is lining up his stroke. It also seems like it might be a contact reference point as well, since he seems to hit the ball fairly near where his left hand was when he starts to rotate. He also uses his left arm in interesting ways on his BH, where most other players tend to let it flop around ML tends utilize it in a more deliberate manner. This probably contributes to the aesthetics.

FB holds his left arm in near the same position as ML and does a similar motion on his drive shots.

Well said, kind of what I feel on some context. Especially the left arm to locate the ball and drive through it like a target point.i also think about the left arm acting as a counterbalance to lowert the center of gravity much like what you said about skaters. FZD in my opinion centers his body very low and fixes it like a tree to achieve the same torque.

On a more subtle note his left arm acts as counter weight which helps him keep his balance as he is lining up his stroke.

I actually didnt read it before typing my own view. Well, we said the same thing

Yeah, he uses the same princip for BH as well, but it looks kind of awkward.

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

Yep. I was looking for footage of some Ma Lin Crazy FH shots like that video of Ryu Seung Min. Ma Lin's FH was legitimately freaky.

But, for some reason I feel like it is a little unfair to really compare penhold FH to shakehand FH. There are so many penhold players who developed outrageous FHs. I am not sure if it is that they had to because the traditional penhold BH is too much of a liability at the TOP LEVELS without the crazy FH. Or if it is something about the grip that allows for more power from the FH.

I do think something about the penhold grip lends itself to outrageous FH capabilities. But maybe that is changing. Ma Long and Wang Liqin ARE, TRUTHFULLY, pretty close to some top penhold FHs.


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Penholder rotates their lower arm like a wheel around their central axis of the body. As u said it is much different to what shakehanders can do na

 

[NextLevel]

I too can take something out of context and speak about why they feel iike imbeciles but it doesn't really help with the subject. It is just funny when you try to keep pouncing on me for What I am trying to do. It is easy to flip the other side and speak about mulititude of technical failures in one's game, but it doesn't interest me

I don't think I am taking anything out of context nor am I "pouncing on you" for what you are trying to do. I asked you to provide reasons for what you felt and I explained that feelings can be wrong and they can be right. It helps to know what is driving your feelings. I felt that your refusal to even venture into the reasons was because you didn't want to be subjected to scrutiny.

Feelings can be wrong or right. I am a backhand player and I enjoy watching Ma Long probably more than any other player. But is his forehand more powerful than Wang Hao? Zhang Jike? Xu Xin? Fang Bo? Or is it that his his movement and disposition support his use of the forehand because that is how he likes to play? We can ask these questions if you can be clear on what excites you about Ma Long.

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

Wow, fun to here someone say that their intuition tells them that Wang Liqin's FH wasn't the FH that bludgeon a generation of TT Pros and won 3 WTTC Gold Medals in singles.

What does intuition have to do with seeing for yourself that Wang Liqin's FH dominated the world for 7 straight years.

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What does intuition have to do with seeing for yourself that Wang Liqin's FH dominated the world for 7 straight years.

All our opinions come from facts and intuitions. The end result may be right or wrong. Then fact can be true or false as well.

It is not only a single technique that wins 3 world titles but robust game. I am not arguing Carl Lewis or Usain Bolt. I just said in some parts of the game with years, future champions get better than the former ones.

I remember Xu Xin saying his CNT team has the world's best backhand. I forgot his name. That guy bet ZJK or ML in some league matches. Then, we can argue who is having the best backhand in the world. For Xu Xin, it is his team mate, who doesn't play internationally does. How could you refute that?

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

I don't think I am taking anything out of context nor am I "pouncing on you" for what you are trying to do. I asked you to provide reasons for what you felt and I explained that feelings can be wrong and they can be right. It helps to know what is driving your feelings. I felt that your refusal to even venture into the reasons was because you didn't want to be subjected to scrutiny.

Feelings can be wrong or right. I am a backhand player and I enjoy watching Ma Long probably more than any other player. But is his forehand more powerful than Wang Hao? Zhang Jike? Xu Xin? Fang Bo? Or is it that his his movement and disposition support his use of the forehand because that is how he likes to play? We can ask these questions if you can be clear on what excites you about Ma Long.

I already gave my reasons in other replies. It is much about the uniqueness of left hand, I opiniate again FZD in future will be as unique as ML. Left hand act as counter balance. Even, I know that being a beginner cos I have tried it. You should check on it for yourself to see the differecne it can make in the stroke

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

I know the feeling. The problem is that it is this same feeling that leads to beginners trying to "emulate" pros by hitting the ball as hard as possible rather than learning to spin the ball and improving their spin generation and then learning to hit fast balls with high levels of spin.

In other words, the feelings can be completely wrong when they do not understand the nuances of what is happening. Of course, the feelings do have merit, but on something as complicated as this, we need the right kind of balance between feeling and facts.

As long as you aren't trying to claim your feelings are infallible or that you are an expert on the issue (none of us here really are, though those of us with more table tennis experience might have relevant insights to share), it would help to share the basis of your feelings so that there is more information we can use to tease out some of the views you, me and others may have on this subject and how we all arrive at them. Of course, you may not be able to identify all of them, but just what you can identify and write about here will be helpful.

Why do you feel it doesn't? Would love to hear your reasoning.

 

[NextLevel]

Why do I feel what doesn't what?

The CNT coaches have often spoken about forehand quality in the past and have often spoken about Wang Hao and Zhang Jike. It's obvious that all the top 4 CNT players have great forehands. I think it's often more aesthetics and playing style differences that affects how people feel about their respective strokes.

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

Why do I feel what doesn't what?

The CNT coaches have often spoken about forehand quality in the past and have often spoken about Wang Hao and Zhang Jike. It's obvious that all the top 4 CNT players have great forehands. I think it's often more aesthetics and playing style differences that affects how people feel about their respective strokes.

I think it's often more aesthetics and playing style differences that affects how people feel about their respective strokes.

There you answered for me as well. The same I wrote in a different way of expression in the first post

 

[NextLevel]

In a somewhat related story, at a club near mine, two players were discussing who among two top US u12 players had the better forehand. One was arguing for the more advanced and powerful player and another was arguing for the upcoming player. The final point made, which a 3rd coach agreed with, was that the older and more powerful player used his backhand more often in rallies and rarely pivoted. That closed the argument.

I think most people feel that way when they look at Ma Long. That a shake hand players would introduce his forehand so often and so excitingly with so much movement excites them. What they often miss is that he is often punishing people off balls he has set up well with prior play and that just about anyone on the top 4 in the CNT could put away those balls as well. They just don't play that way.

It's the same way many people like to race about Kreanga's backhand. Kreanga had an amazing backhand. But would it be my first choice for a backhand if I was being logical? Maybe if I only cared about highlights. Kreanga is a backhand player but when I look at backhand technique and play there are many other players I find more interesting.

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

I don't know why would anybody have this "feeling" unless they started following table tennis after Ma Long started dominating pro tours. There was no answer to WLQ's forehand till the day he retired, gluing or not speed gluing , 38 mm or 40 mm . Even when he was about to retire , the only way the other guys could beat him and it was a very small subset comprising of ZJK and Ma Long was to finally open up his backhand and attack his backhand ... show me one video where anybody has gone to WLQ's forehand consistently and beaten him on that count even on WLQ's worst days , and don't show me William Henzels Tomahawk episode in olympics even when he lost he did trouble WLQ only with his serve .... and aesthetics don't count a lot of Chinese coaches used the same BS to put WLQ down initially and it did not eventually matter , if it counted then probably the best forehand in the world is owned by Liu Shiwen or Ai Fukuhara ...

As you rightly pointed out, ZJK choked WL out in some 2011 match. I remember ZJK crushing him on FH -FH duel. This is not me trying to argue, just stating one fact. On the contrary, it is indeed true that WL choked all his opponents pretty much during 2004-2010

 

[NextLevel]

There you answered for me as well. The same I wrote in a different way of expression in the first post

It would have been much nicer IMO to hear it from you. But I guess I can't get everything I want.

My favorite CNT forehand is Xu Xin. He beats choppers like eggs.

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

In a somewhat related story, at a club near mine, two players were discussing who among two top US u12 players had the better forehand. One was arguing for the more advanced and powerful player and another was arguing for the upcoming player. The final point made, which a 3rd coach agreed with, was that the older and more powerful player used his backhand more often in rallies and rarely pivoted. That closed the argument.

I think most people feel that way when they look at Ma Long. That a shake hand players would introduce his forehand so often and so excitingly with so much movement excites them. What they often miss is that he is often punishing people off balls he has set up well with prior play and that just about anyone on the top 4 in the CNT could put away those balls as well. They just don't play that way.

It's the same way many people like to race about Kreanga's backhand. Kreanga had an amazing backhand. But would it be my first choice for a backhand if I was being logical? Maybe if I only cared about highlights. Kreanga is a backhand player but when I look at backhand technique and play there are many other players I find more interesting.

There are many ways to contribute to a post by the one you wrote in the last instead of thinking others are idiots. When OP makes a post, indeed they want to know something like in this case which they don't figure out for themselves. It is idiotic to ask back at the OP again why they think that way. Answer is they want to know from others. All amateurs think they are professionals and I see most of the people over here as amateurs but putting up the face of professionals

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

It would have been much nicer IMO to hear it from you. But I guess I can't get everything I want.

My favorite CNT forehand is Xu Xin. He beats choppers like eggs.

I can't give you more than I have. i am sorry.

My favorite all CNT national squad + so many more European legends. Hard to keep count

 

[NextLevel]

There are many ways to contribute to a post by the one you wrote in the last instead of thinking others are idiots. When OP makes a post, indeed they want to know something like in this case which they don't figure out for themselves. It is idiotic to ask back at the OP again why they think that way. Answer is they want to know from others. All amateurs think they are professionals and I see most of the people over here as amateurs but putting up the face of professionals

You are the OP - why are you referring to yourself in third person? I wanted to hear your views. For some people, it is just as fair to hear what the OP thinks as it is for the OP to request to hear what others think. I know you consider this idiotic - it would be nice to know why you think it is stupid to want to know what you think on a subject that you are asking others about. And I asked well before you shared your views. You could have said that you wanted to withhold your views to avoid biasing people. But you said it was a feeling. If we all wrote our feelings here in the manner you did, we would have nothing to discuss.

This topic is one of the more interesting ones in table tennis in other contexts. I know quite a few people who believe the right way to play is replicate CNT (or some other high level) technique by trying to reverse engineer it (as opposed to being tutored or coached on it), you just being one of many. It's not uncommon to do this with good results, the main risk sometimes being that one is copying quirks as well as good technique. It's quite possible that the reason why Ma Long uses the arm the way he does is because he was taught to use it to track the ball in his youth and it is a habit he kept into old age. It's also possible that it helped him balance and rotate better (again in youth) and he just kept it into old age.

But on the flip side, technique evolves. Sometimes, trying to copy high level technique without getting the basics down can result in bad habits. And it is not always obvious whether or why or if something is truly better than something else just because it seems to look better. There is also the risk of injury.

For the original topic, since you have made many posts on this forum about your copying Ma Long's technique etc., it helps to understand what you like about it and what you think makes it better.

 

[TT4Life]

ahahhahhahah this thread lolz, u want to know for yourself ? only be there in person to witness it then learn it, practice it, preach it, dream it and lots of hours put in to it. Its a religion

 

[bobpuls]

It would have been much nicer IMO to hear it from you. But I guess I can't get everything I want.

My favorite CNT forehand is Xu Xin. He beats choppers like eggs.

Yes i fully agree ... Xu Xin rule ...

 

[Archosaurus]

Siva, let me tell you, don't try to reverse engineer high level technique as it is. Build up on it by slowly developing the mechanics of your own body. Then maybe you can branch into something similar: but not before you work on all of the parts one by one.

If I had to explain simply why I think ML is the most technically complete player, I would have to say that his technique overall has been refined to a high enough level that he can play his strengths all the time without being severely limited by his weaknesses, barring an exceptional situation ie: Kuwait Open where ZJK locked him down onto his BH and played ML with his superior BH.

He is very balanced yet he has some exceptional strengths.