Question: What makes Ma Long's strokes so Unique?

[UpSideDownCarl]

Okay guys. Sorry for my part in the discussion that is not about what makes a great FH. But, let's try to move away from the comments that are about other forum members and back to the subject of great forehands. Or, Ma Long's great forehand in particular.


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[UpSideDownCarl]

In Tennis when someone is trained to play, they are actually trained to use the off hand (for a righty, the left hand) in the stroke. Why do I know this? Well, I don't play tennis at all, but I have a good friend who is a tennis coach at a top east coast college.

I am not sure that I see the off hand trained so much in table tennis. But I spent a lot of time trying to train my left arm not to drop. It still drops often enough and when you do not use the off hand as part of the stroke you cannot use the body as effectively with the stroke.

In Tennis the way I have heard the use of the off hand described is, mirroring. I don't like the term because it is not really mirroring. It seems to me it is more connected and moving parallel to the contact arm. Like, if you grabbed a large ball in both hands and imitated a TT stroke, that would be almost what the off hand should actually do: not quite, but almost.

No matter how much I train this, when I swing too hard, my left arm seems to want to drop. [emoji2]

The arm on BH is a little different. That actually could more usefully be called mirroring.

But these guys are so well trained. Don't they all use their off hands well to help keep their balance and add core rotation to the stroke?

Well, most. [emoji2]


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[Ilia Minkin]

50% of a great forehand is the great footwork. If not more. And Ma Long's footwork is damn amazing.

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

Are there are some essential exercises, By that I mean cardinal ones which give the fastest result to increase agility in footwork

 

[Ilia Minkin]

Are there are some essential exercises, By that I mean cardinal ones which give the fastest result to increase agility in footwork

No way, it takes years of hard and meticulous work, there is no shortcut.

 

[Ilia Minkin]

Probably the most effective one(s) is something like this. But it will take a lot of time before you can do something like that in a match.

 

[NextLevel]

No way, it takes years of hard and meticulous work, there is no shortcut.

I've heard that co-ordination ladder drills are very useful.

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

Probably the most effective one(s) is something like this. But it will take a lot of time before you can do something like that in a match.

By shortcut, I meant the right technique, I have wasted some months in the club by training on wrong principles that it became a laughing stock for everyone around here. Thanks for sharing this video. I hope to learn something through this. Is it the FAlkenberg Drill?

 

[V-Griper]

So the question is this - if this is such a significant innovation, why haven't other players on the CNT been asked to duplicate it?

The original question was asking about the uniqueness of ML's stroke not whether or not it was innovative. His use of the left arm is unique among other players.

As to your question FB does the same motion on his drive FH. My guess would be that the smaller players need ways of generating power that players with more mass don't have to utilize. It probably is codified to some degree but I'm not sure the benefits raise the technique to the level that all players would reap the same benefits.

 

[Ilia Minkin]

By shortcut, I meant the right technique, I have wasted some months in the club by training on wrong principles that it became a laughing stock for everyone around here. Thanks for sharing this video. I hope to learn something through this. Is it the FAlkenberg Drill?

No, it is a random drill where coach gives you a backspin ball anywhere, randomly and you have to go fast into position to play a shot. But remember, before you can do even slightly similar, you have to master to some extent:

1) Decent stroke mechanics
2) Regular footwork

By shortcut, I meant the right technique, I have wasted some months in the club by training on wrong principles that it became a laughing stock for everyone around here.

Of course, right technique will take you to the goal faster, but even with a good coach by your side constantly correcting you, it is a long way.

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

I've heard that co-ordination ladder drills are very useful.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge NL, I ll take a look at it.

 

[Ilia Minkin]

Also, when it comes to footwork, especially forehand oriented, fitness start to really matter. If you don't have a strong athletic background, rebuilding muscles and cardiovascular system takes a lot of time. The human body is slow in adapting.

 

[V-Griper]

In Tennis when someone is trained to play, they are actually trained to use the off hand (for a righty, the left hand) in the stroke. Why do I know this? Well, I don't play tennis at all, but I have a good friend who is a tennis coach at a top east coast college.

I am not sure that I see the off hand trained so much in table tennis. But I spent a lot of time trying to train my left arm not to drop. It still drops often enough and when you do not use the off hand as part of the stroke you cannot use the body as effectively with the stroke.

In Tennis the way I have heard the use of the off hand described is, mirroring. I don't like the term because it is not really mirroring. It seems to me it is more connected and moving parallel to the contact arm. Like, if you grabbed a large ball in both hands and imitated a TT stroke, that would be almost what the off hand should actually do: not quite, but almost.

No matter how much I train this, when I swing too hard, my left arm seems to want to drop. [emoji2]

The arm on BH is a little different. That actually could more usefully be called mirroring.

But these guys are so well trained. Don't they all use their off hands well to help keep their balance and add core rotation to the stroke?

Well, most. [emoji2]


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You are spot on with this observation. I used to play tennis in high school and that's how I came to understand what ML was doing. It's almost exactly like the left arm usage in tennis.

It's more necessary in tennis because the relative mass of the racket has to be compensated for.

The problem I see is that the circular motion of the drive hand in tennis is opposite that of TT. But its the same principle.

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

You are spot on with this observation. I used to play tennis in high school and that's how I came to understand what ML was doing. It's almost exactly like the left arm usage in tennis.

It's more necessary in tennis because the relative mass of the racket has to be compensated for.

The problem I see is that the circular motion of the drive hand in tennis is opposite that of TT. But its the same principle.

I too had my fantasy for tennis much like Table tennis, that I trained little bit to figure how it is done. Now, I remember that even when you serve for a righty your left arm is raised to create that imbalance and you throttle forward to hit the ball, after which you recoil. If my understanding is correct, during service, the other hand creates a see-saw kind of effect.

In badminton, it is the same with left arm and two leg bended backwards, to increase the flight time. Now, it makes all sense to me.

 

[V-Griper]

ZJK wins because he has more of the complete package and he can prevent WLQ from getting to his FH but there is no question as to which player has the better FH.

 

[NextLevel]

ZJK wins because he has more of the complete package and he can prevent WLQ from getting to his FH but there is no question as to which player has the better FH.

ZJK played WLQ quite a few times that year - maybe OP is referring to a different match?

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

ZJK wins because he has more of the complete package and he can prevent WLQ from getting to his FH but there is no question as to which player has the better FH.

I didnt realise when I commented that ML has better FH than WL. Seems a huge mistake, didn't expect anyone to take it that seriously. Some Hardcore WL fans out here.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Ladder footwork:

Faulkenberg:

Starts at 1:55:

Shadow footwork/stroke drills in front of a mirror really helped me be able to do footwork drills when working with a coach SOOOO MUCH quicker. It really speeded up the learning process to have learned the coordination of the footwork with the strokes before I added the skills of reading ball placement and tracking the ball.

The footwork in a real match is different than in training drills, but you still feel yourself pull out pieces of drills in the middle of play, just because your body has trained what to do.

At 51 I'll never be Petr Korbel or Ryu Seung Min. But playing with things like these is fun for me and really helps. Having the mirror also REALLY HELPS.


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[Siva Schopenhauer]

Ladder footwork:

Faulkenberg:

Starts at 1:55:

Shadow footwork/stroke drills in front of a mirror really helped me be able to do footwork drills when working with a coach SOOOO MUCH quicker. It really speeded up the learning process to have learned the coordination of the footwork with the strokes before I added the skills of reading ball placement and tracking the ball.

The footwork in a real match is different than in training drills, but you still feel yourself pull out pieces of drills in the middle of play, just because your body has trained what to do.

At 51 I'll never be Petr Korbel or Ryu Seung Min. But playing with things like these is fun for me and really helps. Having the mirror also REALLY HELPS.


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Super, I will take some more time to look at it. Meanwhile, I am editing the videos of today. Hope I made some progress by absorbing some material from last discussions.

At 51 You look younger to me Carl. All that yoga should have provided some great results.

 

[TTHopeful]

I remember an interview on here a few years back where Ma Long said he goes to sleep no later than 10pm and never drinks alcohol and trys to have the perfect diet. All this will help him develop.