Shuki Development and Questions

[darnner123]

Don't rule out any shot Shuki, and the footwork is much easier if you do forehand flick because my money is on the fact that the return is going to come long to your wide forehand or backhand down the line.
... and you need to learn the flick anyways .... never say never

oh okay you were one step ahead of me haha
nice 1

 

[Shuki]

Don't rule out any shot Shuki, and the footwork is much easier if you do forehand flick because my money is on the fact that the return is going to come long to your wide forehand or backhand down the line.
... and you need to learn the flick anyways .... never say never

I specifically remember trying a vertical raquet just going forward, I'm ruling that approach to the fh flick out.

 

[Shuki]

im just suggesting you could learn the forehand flick which can help you in games
first of all i dont know how much spin there is and doesnt take a genius to know to close the bat if theres more spin
more side less top - you can do ur bat vertically.
the problem is that you are not adapting and trying to look at the spin with ur way of thinking.
so if another person does the same serve but have more side than top, the balls gonna drop into the net.
basically my suggestion is not to be close minded and to learn new strokes or think of new possibilities
table tennis is a wonderful sport where you can experiment a lot of different things

not the issue for me necessarily, my forehand flick works better if they have back on it. Still not a strong stroke for me yet as I'm working hard to fix it's issues, but I have too much of an upward motion in general making the backspin version much easier. I'm assuming the top is so hard because although I may THINK i'm not doing an upward stroke with it, I probably am.

 

[Shuki]

Sorry, let me rephrase my post since I wasn't clear when I stated that I need to work on my forehand flick. The question was, is it VIABLE to go all the way over to the fh side and just do a backhand flick. Lets not get into the rights and wrongs of the fh flick right now since I'll leave that part of my training to my coach.

 

[darnner123]

its definitely possible to do a backhand flick from forehand side
professional players do this all the time but i think its better to perfect an easier stroke like a forehand flick (in my opinion) than to go do a really high level shot.

 

[Shuki]

its definitely possible to do a backhand flick from forehand side
professional players do this all the time but i think its better to perfect an easier stroke like a forehand flick (in my opinion) than to go do a really high level shot.

gotcha, in your opinion. thanks

 

[ttmonster]

@Shuki: I will be interested to know what your coach tells you when you discuss with her your problem . Please fill us in if you can.

 

[Shuki]

@Shuki: I will be interested to know what your coach tells you when you discuss with her your problem . Please fill us in if you can.

coaches words (paraphrasing) also she only does this with backspin/nospin
right now the major problems with my forehand flicks are as follows:

1. Not watching the ball during drills, needing to wait until I understand the trajectory before moving to it. I'll move to it before I know exactly where its going to be since it's a drill and I know the general area.

2. Timing, Hitting too early, especially on the ones slightly deeper.

3. I often treat them as a sidespin loop as it's easier to produce a quality ball, but she wants me behind the ball until bad habits are eliminated.

4. Body transfer weight "from right to left, not hard, just like turn body on loop"

5. Too excited relax relax relax.



I'm sure I'm missing more. Once I get these issues fixed she always adds in other issues to work on I didn't know about. Just not overwhelming a student too much.


All of which are easy fixes but will take time and the drills.

Also she sometimes does a slightly higher forehand short ball that she wants us to jump to and smash (flat hit). I know me saying that we jump toward the ball is going to drive some people insane.

What we do with this drill is jump to the short fh, smash with the momentum of our body moving forward, have the landing on the forehand leg, push back to neutral position, repeat. very tiring drill.


All of these drills explained are multiball from a bucket.

 

[NextLevel]

Shuki,

Our games are more similar than you think so I understand your pain 100%. Ovtcharov is my high level.soul mate. Yes you can banana flick from the forehand side or even push with your backhand or basic backhand flick. I will find a video from a a Canadian player for you sometime on returning leftie serves that may help.

I struggle with the short forehand. As with all things, I accept where I am and hope it gets better with practice.

 

[anchorschmidt]

Sorry, let me rephrase my post since I wasn't clear when I stated that I need to work on my forehand flick. The question was, is it VIABLE to go all the way over to the fh side and just do a backhand flick. Lets not get into the rights and wrongs of the fh flick right now since I'll leave that part of my training to my coach.

I do this sometimes as well. But you better be sure that you place the ball somewhere where the Opponent cannot directly attack it. If I can anticipate the serve there, then maybe I can attack the wide forehand but if not, then I'll either place it to the elbow or to the backhand.

Make sure you get back as quickly as possible. Don't go ball-watching and admire your flick. Get back as soon as the ball has left your racket!

 

[Avenger]

vertical bat wouldn't work at all, way more than you're thinking is on it. As I said earlier I had him practice the serve after the games and let me work on recieving it. I had to close my raquet dramatically and go forward with NO upward motion.

To each his own. Banana flick is easy for me forhand flick is easy for you.

I just want to thank Shuki for providing me some valuable information on returning these pesky short forehand side-top serves. I've been struggling for a long while returning these serves with a player from my club. He would always pull it out in critical situations (8-8, 9-9, or deuce) and I would usually hit it long or pop it out and lose the game. Very frustrating....

Today I tried closing my racket like it was pure topsin and backhand flicked it from the forehand side going just forward with my wrirst with little to no upward lift. And it worked!! Not just one lucky time, I was able to have an aggressive return through out all the games we played! I'm super stoked of this stroke. Will be working on forehand flicking these serves as well. Hopefully I won't forget, and will be able to return these serves successfully in the future. Thank you!!

 

[Shuki]

I just want to thank Shuki for providing me some valuable information on returning these pesky short forehand side-top serves. I've been struggling for a long while returning these serves with a player from my club. He would always pull it out in critical situations (8-8, 9-9, or deuce) and I would usually hit it long or pop it out and lose the game. Very frustrating....

Today I tried closing my racket like it was pure topsin and backhand flicked it from the forehand side going just forward with my wrirst with little to no upward lift. And it worked!! Not just one lucky time, I was able to have an aggressive return through out all the games we played! I'm super stoked of this stroke. Will be working on forehand flicking these serves as well. Hopefully I won't forget, and will be able to return these serves successfully in the future. Thank you!!

I'm glad it worked for you, today a player was abusing how weak my short forehand was and I started doing backhand flicks all the way over on the forehand side after enough frustration. Worked a few times but the opponent was a good player so seeing that I HAD to return it like this was still an advantage for him.

Tomorrow (sunday) I'll be with my coach and instead of the usual situation where we work on specific things she has planned out, I asked if I could get a good chunk of the time working on short forehand's. Hopefully enough multiball will uncripple me at least a bit on it.

 

[NextLevel]

You are supposed to bend your wrist backwards as if you are making the same racket angle that your backhand has naturally with your forehand. So you can contact the inside edge of the ball.

The alternative is a hooking continue the spin stroke.

Good luck with it, this issue still confuses me till this day.

 

[SchemeSC]

Shuki,

Flicking balls to the short forehand is a major problem in my game, too. But in my last session, I think I figured out what I was doing wrong: I had my body too much BEHIND the ball. When your body is too far behind the ball, it is difficult to keep the elbow out. Experiment with having your body a little farther to the left (assuming right handed) than you think you need to when forehand flicking.

When you have your body farther off to the left in comparison to the ball, it is easier to make the wrist adjustments to contact all points of the ball.

 

[Shuki]

Shuki,

Flicking balls to the short forehand is a major problem in my game, too. But in my last session, I think I figured out what I was doing wrong: I had my body too much BEHIND the ball. When your body is too far behind the ball, it is difficult to keep the elbow out. Experiment with having your body a little farther to the left (assuming right handed) than you think you need to when forehand flicking.

When you have your body farther off to the left in comparison to the ball, it is easier to make the wrist adjustments to contact all points of the ball.

I did a LOT of drills today with my coach, 2 hours of multiball for me. as well as another 2 just doing other various table tennis activities while helping out in group lessons. Then I left my coaches place to go play at the club and got another 3 hours of play in. Full day, lots of fun.

Now what you said was kind of part of the fix to my short forehand. I'm of an okay height but my wingspin is a bit big for my height. When I loop or do forehands off the table for the most part, I have a pretty compact stroke, not too far from my body. most of my stroke comes from my rotation and body weight transfer.

Heres some things my coach told me today, and the things that clicked for me.

1. "Hear it then go" this means dont just move to where you think the ball is going to go, I jam myself up trying to do the stroke since I'm used to putting a lot of body into the stroke. so It really looked like I was just moving in too quickly and that's why I was being jammed.

2. Then at some point she said don't turn your body just use your forearm. This made me be farther from the ball to get the speed on my raquet to go through the ball. I needed the farther part of my swing to hit it.

3. Now this was the biggest shock to what I'd heard in the past. "Stop brushing the ball, until you've gotten the hang of it" she teaches all her students their form with no brush because it makes it easier to develop a pure stroke before adding spin later. But I had always brushed and had good touch, Always struggled with flatter hitting. But when I stopped brushing the ball for a while I was able to do quite a few in a row before missing. And then finally she said okay now you can brush the ball again for if its spinny. And it all clicked together

Sure it only clicked together for today, (and my games after lessons) but at least it's not just some super exposed part of my game anymore. Not a STRONG part of my game, and it probably wont be for quite some time, but I'm no longer helpless. Hope it holds.

 

[Der_Echte]

Good News.

 

[NextLevel]

Yeah. Come to think of it, that's probably a huge part of my problem as well. I remember SchemeSC asking me why I often reached out to the forehand with a very straight arm when flicking or returning serve and I might have given him some answer related to my recovery and bad movement, but its often the only way I know how to gain leverage, When I move too close I get jammed. Finding the right distance to the ball for any stroke is crucial.

 

[ttmonster]

I am more comfortable to flick a ball when my upper body is low and the ball is a little more than a forearm away. I am not saying I always get there on time and miss if I am not there but it generally gives you a good feeling to execute a flick with good form and timing. More often than not if your feet are ready and you are closely watching the ball , it gets executed automatically

 

[Shuki]

Update:

I'll be getting my camera on the 24th of this month to record footage of my play for critique and advice.

Played today, amazingly compared to usual. Keep in mind these are all player's I've played against before, some on numerous occasions so by no means does it reflect my playing level. I am definitely worse than these players.

I played 4 players that are rated over 2000, none over 2100. And won against them all. Also I am assuming that I'm not getting their best game obviously because I'm not at their level I don't need it.

The first went to the 4th game and was the penholder I struggle the most against and have NEVER beaten. This was a moral victory in so many ways. What I did differently was play much more patient. I kept pushing until there was an EXCELLENT ball because he knew how capable I am at looping over the table and was waiting for it. I learned from what nextlevel said and when I looped the ball made sure to put enough spin on it so that he couldn't just block it off the bounce. I also found that when he realized he was going to lose by playing his normal game against me he started attacking. His attacks were loops though which suprised me because I thought penholders usually hit more flat for their attacks. I blocked the loops back with ease since touch against spin is really my specialty.

Second set of games was against yet another penholder. This one is much more aggressive and I played my regular game which I discovered consists of blocks that slow the game down back to the table. He would attack hard and I would graze the ball in such a way that really slowed the game back down to my pace. He got frustrated and started smacking everything really hard so I wouldn't be able to slow it down. But this was detrimental to him and it caused him to miss more than he hit.

Third player, again penholder. This one was known for his serves which were almost always long but once attacked, played right into his game of moving you around. I honestly thing this game was all luck for me, I was running around everywhere just not missing and swinging with all I had. Waited longer for his serves to drop a bit before attacking them, but couldn't play a short game with him because his serves often prevented that. I wish I could have played a short game because I'm stronger there, than off the table even though I'm technically a "two winged looper"

5th game was a shakehander who focused on third ball attacks and served a lot of his serves long. For whatever reason he doesn't have much of a short backhand so I serve there a LOT to him. Now he used to just return it short to my forehand because he knew I had no answer to short forehands. But just 2 days prior to today me and my coach worked HARD on fixing that. I RIPPED those short forehands back at him, it took him trying it quite a few times to be convinced that such a big weakness of mine could be gone so quickly. I was astounded myself that they somehow got better than when I was playing on sunday. I think it may have been having higher energy level tonight that helped. After the first game he went with his normal style of spinny loops with good pace on them. My block messed his timing up a few times and he got pretty angry talking about "me having dead rubber" (which I just replaced with new sheets on saturday haha.) He then went for more spinny loops instead of the ones that had good pace on them. This was a mistake that he never encountered from me. These are were I shine with my blocks. He made one quite high and spinny and I did my "passive block", he moved back to follow up with a stronger loop off the ball that would surely come long. But my "passive block bounced twice." I think this is the point where he broke down.

I'm playing extremely well lately and I have a lot of you to thank for helping with the development so far. Can't wait for the tournament here April 16th. Which I'll be in the U1700 and U1900. I was told by the tournament committee I'll be able to proceed out of the round robin even though I have no rating yet. Although today I was told by a few players I shouldn't be in the U1700. I assured them that I only played well tonight because I've played these players before and am actually not very good.


EDIT: at the current moment, my game FEELS to have no major holes and I'm happy to say I can finally focus more on tactics and placement instead of focusing on my form.

 

[anchorschmidt]

Wow, it's a great achievement to beat 2000+ rated players in practice after justing playing for 3 years. Hats off!

I think it's a good idea to play U1700. I have managed to give players who are much stronger than me a good fight in my own club but a large part of that was knowing their games and being insensitive to their serves. If I had met them for the first time in a tournament, I would be destroyed.

In any case, you can get used to the tournament setting during the U1700 and then everything will feel more comfortable during the U1900. If you are able to bring your practice form to the table, I don't think that U1700 should be a problem at all and I think you can at least reach a good stage during the U1900.