Shuki Development and Questions

[yuri.saldon]

Penholders have less range in the strokes and the transition between FH/BH is slower too.

You could place the ball in the wide BH two, tree times and than put on FH side.

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[NextLevel]

Here is NextLevel vs JP. This a long time ago and my game has changed slightly. That said, I would play JP similarly to the 5th game in terms of strategy. But whether I would beat him I don't know - he beat some people at FIT that were pretty good.

 

[NextLevel]

really interesting point here, haven't heard players say I don't have much topspin too often. And they do this same stuff against high level players we have. One of which that comes to mind is an older gentleman by the name of Parvis, who's right now I think 2350ish +/-100. He also doesn't loop with a lot of spin though so it would make sense that they can do this to him too. He's adapted to them now but the first few times the penholders came they gave him quite the upset considering the level difference.

I know Parvis. The key thing here is that you are both close to the table loopers - that is part of the problem - therefore, your loops will tend to have lower and more easily blockable trajectories. Sometimes, you have to let the ball drop a little and load it up as a variation or use some corkscrew.

 

[NDH]

Does this JP play with pimples?

What USTT rating is he?

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

JP plays long pips and medium pips. So, yes, some form of pimples on both sides.

His USATT rating ranges from about 2050 to about 2200. He bangs the ball around and gets people out of their game. His game is so weird that often, the first time, or even the first few times someone around 2200 plays him, he wins because his game is just so weird. But I've heard that you can figure him out and do better against him. He obviously has weaknesses.

But he is pretty good for a guy who is self taught, and can't move too well because he was in a car accident.

But the size of his ego is amazing. If that really had a say in things, he'd be world class. Hahaha.


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[NDH]

Wow - Fair enough.

Not wishing to divert from Shuki's excellent thread, so I won't comment anymore (after this).

All I'll say is...... Guys who attack with pips are tricky, because it takes the time away to think about what you are doing!

However..... He looks no where near (what I had been led to believe), someone over 2000 should look like - No where near at all!

I'm sure the videos are deceptive, especially taking the pips into consideration! But yeah....... Wow!

 

[NextLevel]

Wow - Fair enough.

Not wishing to divert from Shuki's excellent thread, so I won't comment anymore (after this).

All I'll say is...... Guys who attack with pips are tricky, because it takes the time away to think about what you are doing!

However..... He looks no where near (what I had been led to believe), someone over 2000 should look like - No where near at all!

I'm sure the videos are deceptive, especially taking the pips into consideration! But yeah....... Wow!

Everything you have said is on the money. But I keep telling people that this is not a sport where you win points for looking good. I look bad because I don't have good knees but my mechanics are often correct as far as my arm usage but some people will tell you I have no technique (I am now branding the title "LUMBERJACK TT" in honor of these people).

I had played JP a couple of times before when lower rated - this was my first time playing him after breaking 2000.

JP is a lefty and some of his serves are illegal but very tricky because of hiding and low toss. He also hits very hard within the first 4 shots of the point, both on his and your serve. You are watching videos of him playing players who are familiar with him. In my case, I have a very strong backhand and lots of pips playing experience so you don't get to see the real matchup vs a topspin player. Same with Edmund. I wish we could find a more neutral match so you could see the problem his pips pose to someone who doesn't practice against them as often.

IF you survive the serve and attack phase of the point on his serve, you will usually win the point because JP falls back and the pips lack bite. But he gets a lot of point from people who serve heavy sidespin serves and get the ball attacked hard by JP's pips before they even know what is happening. And because he is a lefty, your cognitive reads get messed up by his forehand. Finally, if you don't have a good backhand, playing his forehand or pivoting to open against his pip control is going to kill you. But if you know what to serve to him, that solves 99% of the problem. But it takes some time to figure this out.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

And, as I said earlier, in a match, in a tournament, with money on the line, I know a guy who is USATT 2450 who JP actually beat.

There used to be this tournament once a month in a bar in my neighborhood. You would pay $5.00 to enter and the winner got all the entry cash. Almost everyone coming to the tournament was a total recreational player. But there was this one guy who was coming every month and winning.

Now I played him to try and figure out his level and I realized the guy had anti-spin. When I asked him if I could look at his racket he said: "I don't know, a friend gave it to me. Is it good?" The blade was a Butterfly Jonyer-H. The anti was Burrerfly Super Anti. I said to him: "you've got anti-spin on here." He said: "I don't know, what does that mean. My friend gave it to me and said, sometimes I should use the black side to get a high ball to attack." Now, I pretty much sucked back then. But I knew this guy was full of it and he was getting an easy win every month and collecting around $400.00 without having to play anyone good.

At the time I thought the guy was about 1700-1800.

So I got JP to show up at this tournament because I know he was good. Anyway, it turns out the guy was about 2100 and him and JP had a pretty exciting match. It went to 5 but JP did take the money and the guy who had been trying to pretend he was the same level as everyone else, well, after that it was pretty obvious how good the guy was.

And, yeah, things can be deceiving when watching table tennis.

When Timo Boll came to NY, Edmund made a joke that we should show Timo what real NY and US table tennis is all about and make Timo play JP, Philippe Dassonval, Richard Dewitt and Tahl Leibovitz. Hahaha.

Right now I am thinking of that question from DTop's "Ban Junk Rubber" video:

"Do you get points for looking athletic while playing, sort of like figure skating?"


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[Shuki]

Question time from todays set of games. I played a player 1865 USATT who was new to the club. I was a shoe in to win this game based on how all of our rallies, service return and variation was going. Then all of a sudden he finds a weak point of mine. He started doing a short tomahawk serve to my forehand with side-top.

I know this should be an easy return for most but short to my forehand has always been a struggle for me. All of a sudden I couldn't return a single serve. I'm well known at the club I play at for being exceptional at service return with my backhand, flipping it to topspin with easy at varying paces. Now here's my predicament that I would like advice on. Should I have moved all the way over to do a backhand flick to this serve? I can do it slowly as well as with good pace but I'm not sure I'd be able to get back into position in time if I did this and they got a good return off the flick.

I've used this technique in the past against players with antispin on one side or long pips or some kind of non-inverted rubber, knowing it wouldn't come back too quickly and I would be able to get back in place.

Regardless, need to work on short forehand recieve of service and I know that. But do you think a backhand all the way over there is viable?

 

[NextLevel]

Question time from todays set of games. I played a player 1865 USATT who was new to the club. I was a shoe in to win this game based on how all of our rallies, service return and variation was going. Then all of a sudden he finds a weak point of mine. He started doing a short tomahawk serve to my forehand with side-top.

I know this should be an easy return for most but short to my forehand has always been a struggle for me. All of a sudden I couldn't return a single serve. I'm well known at the club I play at for being exceptional at service return with my backhand, flipping it to topspin with easy at varying paces. Now here's my predicament that I would like advice on. Should I have moved all the way over to do a backhand flick to this serve? I can do it slowly as well as with good pace but I'm not sure I'd be able to get back into position in time if I did this and they got a good return off the flick.

I've used this technique in the past against players with antispin on one side or long pips or some kind of non-inverted rubber, knowing it wouldn't come back too quickly and I would be able to get back in place.

Regardless, need to work on short forehand recieve of service and I know that. But do you think a backhand all the way over there is viable?

Yes, it's viable. As you pointed out, it depends on the opponent. In this game, you build more weapons so that you don't have nothing to throw at someone who is foiling your A game/plan. IF you find someone with a strong topspin game, a banana might take you ought of position. So you still need a FH receive.

FH receive is a much more common weakness than you think it is, especially against reverse sidespin.

 

[Shuki]

Yes, it's viable. As you pointed out, it depends on the opponent. In this game, you build more weapons so that you don't have nothing to throw at someone who is foiling your A game/plan. IF you find someone with a strong topspin game, a banana might take you ought of position. So you still need a FH receive.

FH receive is a much more common weakness than you think it is, especially against reverse sidespin.

I was contemplating of "fan zhendonging" the ball to scare him off that serve, but I also knew that if I always returned that ball going all the way over there for a backhand flick, he would learn to abuse what I was looking for.

 

[ttmonster]

Did you try guiding the spin back with an open paddle ?

I was contemplating of "fan zhendonging" the ball to scare him off that serve, but I also knew that if I always returned that ball going all the way over there for a backhand flick, he would learn to abuse what I was looking for.

 

[ttmonster]

The reason I am saying this is , I was told the first step in returning a toma hawk serve is to give the spin back to the server. Once you find the angle to do it , you can try taking the ball earlier and change the angle to give it back shorter, if he is able to loop the long ball consistently. In none of this works, you try attacking it , first with placement and then with spin . And none of this works , then try overpowering it.

 

[Shuki]

Did you try guiding the spin back with an open paddle ?

tried quite a few ways of returning it, after the game though i asked him to do the serve a few times until I got it. I really had to close over the top of the ball and go forward.

 

[Shuki]

The reason I am saying this is , I was told the first step in returning a toma hawk serve is to give the spin back to the server. Once you find the angle to do it , you can try taking the ball earlier and change the angle to give it back shorter, if he is able to loop the long ball consistently. In none of this works, you try attacking it , first with placement and then with spin . And none of this works , then try overpowering it.

looking back now I feel like a complete idiot for not being able to adapt in what seems like any way. unfortunately friday's are my day of no play. I really wanted to work on this type of return of service soon.

With a tournament coming up in 2 weeks this situation made me pretty nervous.

 

[ttmonster]

Don't get nervous !! This is a very common situation. The key is to keep thinking.Whenever somebody starts giving you hell with a serve, you need to snap out of it. Sometimes just try giving up and start having fun with angles and soft hands.

I know this is difficult, and I am no master in it, but I can tell you in theory , with top spin serves, soft hands and angles, with sides spin serves just wait for the ball and loop up softly .

We all get into a stupor whenever this kind of thing happens. But you have to remember adapting to a difficult serve in the game itself quite a high level skill.

I had a friend whose serve is probably 2300 - 2400 level, most people can't return it. He loses only because sometimes he gets irritated and loses temper on the smallest of things or if somebody gets on his backhand with quality and consistency.

He is around 2100. I saw him play a 2200 guy once, the guy got cleaned out in the first two sets. He came back in the third set and started taking everything late and looping up with soft hands and finally found a way out it.

So bottomline, don't beat yourself up. Rather be happy that you found this before the tournament and remember if nothing works , soft hands and angles will give you one more ball to work with.

looking back now I feel like a complete idiot for not being able to adapt in what seems like any way. unfortunately friday's are my day of no play. I really wanted to work on this type of return of service soon.

With a tournament coming up in 2 weeks this situation made me pretty nervous.

 

[darnner123]

uhm the first thing i would do is just forehand flick it
it should be easy since its side-top
at least its way easier than a banana flick from the backhand lol
or u could have ur bat vertical to push it (since its side-top not side back)

 

[Shuki]

uhm the first thing i would do is just forehand flick it
it should be easy since its side-top
at least its way easier than a banana flick from the backhand lol
or u could have ur bat vertical to push it (since its side-top not side back)

vertical bat wouldn't work at all, way more than you're thinking is on it. As I said earlier I had him practice the serve after the games and let me work on recieving it. I had to close my raquet dramatically and go forward with NO upward motion.

To each his own. Banana flick is easy for me forhand flick is easy for you.

 

[ttmonster]

Don't rule out any shot Shuki, and the footwork is much easier if you do forehand flick because my money is on the fact that the return is going to come long to your wide forehand or backhand down the line.
... and you need to learn the flick anyways .... never say never

vertical bat wouldn't work at all, way more than you're thinking is on it. As I said earlier I had him practice the serve after the games and let me work on recieving it. I had to close my raquet dramatically and go forward with NO upward motion.

To each his own. Banana flick is easy for me forhand flick is easy for you.

 

[darnner123]

im just suggesting you could learn the forehand flick which can help you in games
first of all i dont know how much spin there is and doesnt take a genius to know to close the bat if theres more spin
more side less top - you can do ur bat vertically.
the problem is that you are not adapting and trying to look at the spin with ur way of thinking.
so if another person does the same serve but have more side than top, the balls gonna drop into the net.
basically my suggestion is not to be close minded and to learn new strokes or think of new possibilities
table tennis is a wonderful sport where you can experiment a lot of different things