Thanks, I think that's really helpful. I think the reason I've been having a lot of trouble adding my body to my BH shot is because I'm not getting into the optimal position. Whenever I do that I feel like the ball is way too far out front. I think I need to move a bit closer to the ball. I'll give that a try.
And thanks all for the comments about the whip motion. I'm gonna give that a try. I'll probably wait a bit to fix this since I've got weaker aspects in my game that I need to work on, but that'll be something I'll start doing when I do FH trainings.
Technique advice for me
- Thread starter dingyibvs
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says
Spin and more spin.
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The followthrough positions are interesting to analyze (body and arm):
FH:
BH:
These are each from just one shot. But there is a lot of information there.
FH:
BH:
These are each from just one shot. But there is a lot of information there.
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Can I suggest (not sure if space allows).
Move the robot back slow the feed frequency down add more spin hit with less acceleration (and power)
and spin the ball (brush the ball) as much as you can.
Move the robot back slow the feed frequency down add more spin hit with less acceleration (and power)
and spin the ball (brush the ball) as much as you can.
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says
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There are a few ways to look at it. (not being in a good enough position before and at impact)
1 - You did not read the opponent's ball strike good enough. You misjudged the pace, the flight, the landing place, and/or the resultant vector of the ball in 3D and the moment it would arrive where you perceived it... This makes you go to a false position and think the ball is coming to your zone at a certain time... but it doesn't. Now you are trying a power shot out of position without much leverage and it is destined to be a huge fail.
2 - You read the ball well enough, but your movement to position and your ready stance before and at impact is poor. Same result - you go for power shot and it misses badly.
Moving closer to the ball may or may not work, because you can also incorrectly perceive the horizontal arrival position and still be out of position off leverage out of strike zone trying another powershot... then you really wonder what happened in if Der_Echte and TTD members are purveyors of TT misinformation.
That sounds funny AF, but I am serious, when you make an adjustment that you expect would put you in a reasonable position and moment to execute your shot, but you are not and miss the same or worse, you begin to doubt yourself, whoever was giving advice and perhaps your elected officials (for not biatch slapping Der_Echte) When you doubt yourself, it stops a lot of your progress and saps the fun out of TT. I think TT should be enjoyable or none of us would pursue the challenge of what is the best sport on planet earth.
The bigger issue and better thing to do is to figure out what was happening and how/why you did not perceive the impact right... and also check to see if your movement to the point and ready position leverage is good or not.
One way to develop more consistent command of the point of impact in the strike zone is to USE A SHORTER STROKE, GO FOR LESS POWER, FOCUS ON GETTING THE BALL INTO YOUR EFFECTIVE HITTING ZONE.
As you do this, you may notice that you are positioned a little too far back... if so, bend knees, get waist down, allow ball to come to the zone and hit it there... or take a small step forward to set the zone closer. Hopefully, you will not be off horizontally, because if you impact too close to ball or too far from ball, it is also a disaster waiting to happen. Taking a step forward is better in many cases, but getting down and waiting for the ball forces you to focus on spin production more... that isn't a bad habit wither.
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This is what I had mentioned also, great suggestion on adjusting the setting to a slower but spinnier ball.
Carl's screenshots also highlight that your elbow should stay pointing down especially on the FH.
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The robot can't move back, but I've already increased the spin to the max realistic backspin (-3) since yesterday. The heavier spin makes it a bit easier, the rubber bites a bit more and I can borrow power from the incoming shot better.
I was initially a bit surprised by that, but I suppose I shouldn't be. It's easier for me to loop heavy backspins than dead balls on the FH side as well.
Thanks, but I think it's a bit too advanced for my BH right now. I literally don't know where the ball should be in relation to my body when I hit it! It should be a bit forward and a bit to my left, but how forward, how much to the left? I have no idea right now. I need to get a feel of where I should be before I can work on how to get there with good judgment and movement.
I just recorded a video with 3 different types of loops I typically use against backspin. The first set is the brush loop, the second set is a more compact loop drive, and the third set is the loop-kill that I showed before. I'm in flip flops and PJs right now and only had like 20 warmup balls before that, so just using about half power on those shots, but let me know if you're referring loops more like the first 2 sets. These are using different settings, it's slower (speed 12 instead of 13), and spinnier (-3 instead of -2).
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It's partly because you aren't looping them, you are driving them. There are some things to point out about the whole approach to training that to me doesn't add up, but you are an experienced player, I suspect this has worked for you which is why you do it. In general though, I would focus more on trying to do the stroke with the right muscle activation sequences without being overly focused about hitting the ball on the table. Try to vary the arc, some topspin, some drive in order to be able to land some safely and to put away the ball when I feel I have the perfect read. But again, if this works for you, then it is why you do it, and I am not a good enough player to argue with someone else's experiences with what works for them.
Loops are spinning, circular/curved strokes. It is easier to grip a spinning ball, but it isn't easier to topspin a heavy chop ball if your intention is to actually spin the ball.
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IT's not so much the power, but the activation sequence. It should come out clearly that the core of what is happening is being driven by more tension in the lower body and a relatively relaxed upper body. Even if you hit the body really hard or really brushy, there is a different feeling when the focus is on the larger muscles driving the shot, regardless of whether it is a slower or harder shot.
TIMING! I think you're too eager to hit the ball immediately after the bounce. If you wait a tiny bit more, and also think of your placement you can be a lot more consistent and more powerful (since the ball will be lower to the net as well).
HOWEVER! You would need to engage your lower body more as well, get a bit lower to the ground to get that extra power.
Next exercise would be to do the same drill on the robot, but keep it with your forehand, while shuffling your feet.
HOWEVER! You would need to engage your lower body more as well, get a bit lower to the ground to get that extra power.
Next exercise would be to do the same drill on the robot, but keep it with your forehand, while shuffling your feet.
Today at the club I tried out the BH loop vs. backspin, worked pretty well, but the follow up was terrible. I've been practicing BH counters as well, but most of the time I got a fairly soft, short, and high block back, and I just don't know what to do with it. I think my footwork is the main issue. I make a loop and take a step back to prepare for a re-loop as I'd do on my FH side, but unlike on the FH side I'm not used to stepping in to kill a short block. That's an issue often in my BH rallies, I think I've been doing just too many drills against the same depth/speed/spin balls, I need to change up at least the depth and speed (you can't really tell what spin the robot is serving you until it bounces on your side of the table, so varying spin is difficult).
In many ways, this is exactly like what Der_Echte was talking about re: footwork, but I'm unexpectedly running into it with topspins rather than backspins now when I thought I could delay practicing that for a while!
What do you guys think? Should I instead wait for the ball to come to me instead? I'm thinking I should move in, catch it at the high point, and kill it, but waiting a bit for the ball to come to me seems like a fairly valid strategy as well.
In many ways, this is exactly like what Der_Echte was talking about re: footwork, but I'm unexpectedly running into it with topspins rather than backspins now when I thought I could delay practicing that for a while!
What do you guys think? Should I instead wait for the ball to come to me instead? I'm thinking I should move in, catch it at the high point, and kill it, but waiting a bit for the ball to come to me seems like a fairly valid strategy as well.
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Hi Dingyibvs,
TTD Member LittleDragonMan7 has been grappling with the very same issue... do a few FH, then a soft higher ball comes shallow to the BH side... he kinda realizes it too late and tries a kill, but is way off time and position. he has been working and improving it (at least seeing it coming and doing something about it) but it gunna take some time to get into a habit to kill this ball.
It comes down to a few things.
Recognition. You have to quickly realized what just happened - the shallow popup low energy ball that might barely clear endline when you are 4-5 feet behind the table.
On balance after last topspin. When you are on balance with a knee bend, you can quickly move. Quick step forward on time. It usually only takes a big step forward, often with right foot to get to that high loose ball on BH side of table.
Realization of where in zone to hit and how much on the rise how high. You natural strike height for a high loose ball on BH is in a zone 6 inches above your belly button to nose height. You instinctively se the ball well at that height and the biomechanics to strike the ball at that height are easy.
Short stroke lower arm and firming at impact. You can literally get smash speed with a 12 inch stroke and a big firming at impact. What I saw LDM7 do when he got it right in drills where I suddenly give him one of these balls after a few FH topspins is that after his last topspin, he did a TINY HOP... that get his balance, stance and small knee bend... when you do that, it is way easier to initiate movement... is was so damn easy for him to step in one big step with right foot and finish when he did that... he didn't even think about it.
Actually, thinking about it can get you in trouble. With your robot, you can program a 3 or 4 ball sequence for this... have a few (2-3 balls go to FH corner with medium to medium-fast pace... enough to make the ball go 4 foot plus behind end line after bounce and still be at table height... then set the final ball to be a SLOW popup ball that lands in the first 1/3 to 1/2 of the table near center line or to the left of it.
With this robot drill, hit those 2-3 FH 4 feet off the table... You make sure you do a tiny tiny hop to reset your feet after you have done your recovery back stroke after each FH... that will give you a little knee bend that lets you move very quickly when you see something. Then, on that last ball in the robot drill, you recognize the popup, take an explosive step in with right foot, hold bat up chest height and approach the popup and try to crack it with the BH on the rise around chest or chin height.
BE FIRM at impact, do NOT use a monster swing, just a short impulse with the forearm and a little wrist with firming at the end. You will crack that sucka like no tomorrow.
TTD Member LittleDragonMan7 has been grappling with the very same issue... do a few FH, then a soft higher ball comes shallow to the BH side... he kinda realizes it too late and tries a kill, but is way off time and position. he has been working and improving it (at least seeing it coming and doing something about it) but it gunna take some time to get into a habit to kill this ball.
It comes down to a few things.
Recognition. You have to quickly realized what just happened - the shallow popup low energy ball that might barely clear endline when you are 4-5 feet behind the table.
On balance after last topspin. When you are on balance with a knee bend, you can quickly move. Quick step forward on time. It usually only takes a big step forward, often with right foot to get to that high loose ball on BH side of table.
Realization of where in zone to hit and how much on the rise how high. You natural strike height for a high loose ball on BH is in a zone 6 inches above your belly button to nose height. You instinctively se the ball well at that height and the biomechanics to strike the ball at that height are easy.
Short stroke lower arm and firming at impact. You can literally get smash speed with a 12 inch stroke and a big firming at impact. What I saw LDM7 do when he got it right in drills where I suddenly give him one of these balls after a few FH topspins is that after his last topspin, he did a TINY HOP... that get his balance, stance and small knee bend... when you do that, it is way easier to initiate movement... is was so damn easy for him to step in one big step with right foot and finish when he did that... he didn't even think about it.
Actually, thinking about it can get you in trouble. With your robot, you can program a 3 or 4 ball sequence for this... have a few (2-3 balls go to FH corner with medium to medium-fast pace... enough to make the ball go 4 foot plus behind end line after bounce and still be at table height... then set the final ball to be a SLOW popup ball that lands in the first 1/3 to 1/2 of the table near center line or to the left of it.
With this robot drill, hit those 2-3 FH 4 feet off the table... You make sure you do a tiny tiny hop to reset your feet after you have done your recovery back stroke after each FH... that will give you a little knee bend that lets you move very quickly when you see something. Then, on that last ball in the robot drill, you recognize the popup, take an explosive step in with right foot, hold bat up chest height and approach the popup and try to crack it with the BH on the rise around chest or chin height.
BE FIRM at impact, do NOT use a monster swing, just a short impulse with the forearm and a little wrist with firming at the end. You will crack that sucka like no tomorrow.
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This is the Korean vid with eng subs where a Korean Pro team coach is training a couple of amateur players in a long series of vids on TT fundamentals.
The Koreans call it a BH Push, but it is a short BH forearm flat hit stroke with big firming and a little wrist.
This is the shot you would use on BH to put away a block that comes to your BH zone... whether the ball comes to you or you have to step in... no need for long smash swing, the pace you get from this will finish the point.
The Koreans call it a BH Push, but it is a short BH forearm flat hit stroke with big firming and a little wrist.
This is the shot you would use on BH to put away a block that comes to your BH zone... whether the ball comes to you or you have to step in... no need for long smash swing, the pace you get from this will finish the point.
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You could also set the robot up for a 3 ball drill... two medium depth medium balls you BH Loop... then set last ball to be slower, higher, and shorter, like landing on the 1st 1/3 to 1/2 of table... you take one step in and crack it BH on the rise somewhere around chest height +/- a few inches.
This drill simulates what you are describing about a softer higher block from your BH loop attack.
This happens a lot in real TT... you simply have to recognize what happened (sound will be different)... then step in, hit a BH flat hard shot firming up right at impact. Use a tiny bit of wrist at first, then some more later when timing is there.
This drill simulates what you are describing about a softer higher block from your BH loop attack.
This happens a lot in real TT... you simply have to recognize what happened (sound will be different)... then step in, hit a BH flat hard shot firming up right at impact. Use a tiny bit of wrist at first, then some more later when timing is there.
Thanks! I was trying some drill similar to that. I tried a drill with medium fast/medium high spin (speed 19, spin +4 for those who have the Amicus robot) to the BH or slow/less spinny (speed 9, spin +2) high pop up, served to me randomly. I also tried a few other drills that involve popups including an occasional one to the FH, or some that start with a backspin ball.
I experimented with a short punch vs. a big motion loop, and wasn't sure which one I should practice more. But I guess you answered my question. 😁 I did find that taking a bounce after the shot and then big step forward with my right leg is the most natural footwork move. I always take a bounce after a FH loop, but I haven't developed that habit after a BH shot yet. In Chinese that bounce is called a "dian bu", or filler step. It doesn't move you much but gets your body in position to take a bigger step without losing balance.
I haven't tried one that switches from FH loops to BH pop up yet, but I'll mix that in as well.
As an aside, even though I meant to wait before working on relaxing my body and getting a bit more of a whip motion, I started trying it out last night at the club. What can I say, I'm impatient lol. I think I was trying to do too much, overthinking every shot--how to move my feet, how to relax my body, how I should be looping backspins to the BH instead of pushing them, etc.
So I just started practicing my FH today. First step is trying to get the form down. I'm developing a new FH loop drive motion vs. backspin based on advice earlier in this thread as well as instructional videos online. Let me know what you guys think.
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I would be more concerned with your heavy breathing. I am 69 and when I get tired my strokes go to hell.
Your BH looked good. I could see that you were getting some top spin. I agree with those above that said you were driving instead of looping. Your FH stroke looks concave to me. That isn't good because the attitude of the paddle changes all the time. I haven't put any effort into analyzing your stroke frame by frame but look at how much the attitude of the paddle changes over a few frames during the time you make contact with the ball. Hitting the ball a millisecond early or late will result in the ball going too high or too low.
For practicing against BH. Remove the robot from the table and put if on a chair back as far as it can go 10-15ft or 3-4m. The chair will be lower than table height but this is also about the elevation choppers hit the ball from. Now the "chopped" balls can float and still land on the table. This way you can simulate chopped balls better. If you are good, you can still hit the ball back into the net
Your BH looked good. I could see that you were getting some top spin. I agree with those above that said you were driving instead of looping. Your FH stroke looks concave to me. That isn't good because the attitude of the paddle changes all the time. I haven't put any effort into analyzing your stroke frame by frame but look at how much the attitude of the paddle changes over a few frames during the time you make contact with the ball. Hitting the ball a millisecond early or late will result in the ball going too high or too low.
For practicing against BH. Remove the robot from the table and put if on a chair back as far as it can go 10-15ft or 3-4m. The chair will be lower than table height but this is also about the elevation choppers hit the ball from. Now the "chopped" balls can float and still land on the table. This way you can simulate chopped balls better. If you are good, you can still hit the ball back into the net
Hah, it's training, you're supposed to get tired, right? I sometimes do a 3 hour training session after a 2 hour playing session. Just playing TT is not enough exercise for me, at least not match play anyway. It just has too many breaks. So I use training to get a good workout. I think I'm gonna get a fitness band so I can keep my heart rate in the zone 2 range, which should be 120's to 140's for my age.
As for my BH stroke, that was sort of a beginner stroke, I'm moving on from that to a more loop-drive stroke like the FH side now. I'll post some videos on that soon. The slow spinny stroke is too easily blocked, punched, or countered, being able to execute that has not resulted in more wins. I needed that in my arsenal to use against half-long balls though and I needed to learn that in order to move on to a faster shot.
As for moving the robot back, it'd be difficult with this one given it's attached to the net and the ball recycling mechanism. In any case I wouldn't be using my BH against choppers anyway, and I don't need the new form which is meant to give me better recovery time. I'd just use the old form which is a bit more powerful and has a higher consistency but is meant to be for hitting winners because the recovery is very slow.
Don't know about technique, but man, those are some bombs from your FH! 🔥🔥
Not sure how often you have the time to prepare and execute such shots in a match but a couple of those would probably force your opponents to stop playing to your FH at all
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