Timo Boll Illegal Serve

[Abakus]

Hey guys!

I've just watched the ETTC Final Timo Boll vs Patrick Baum and noticed that Boll's serves are illegal.

Photo by: ad-hoc-news.de

Why? - From the beginning of the serve he is clearly not holding the ball behind his endline.

Let's have a look at the international table tennis rules:

2.6 The Service

2.6.1 Service shall start with the ball resting freely on the open palm of the server's stationary free hand.

2.6.4 From the start (defined in 2.6.1) of service until it is struck, the ball shall be above the level of the playing surface and behind the server's end line, and it shall not be hidden from the receiver by the server or his doubles partner and by anything they wear or carry.

Here is the proof:

have a look at 0:45, 1:00, 2:35, 5:44 and 6:32 -> I think he always serve like this, since there are so many examples

But what do you think? - Discuss

BTW: First Thread

 

[azlan]

I think what the rule means is that, the minute when you release the ball from your palm to toss the ball, it must be behind the end line. Resting the ball on your palm with your palm on the table s perfectly legal. Basically what I am saying is that, it's illegal to start tossing the ball from the position while your palm is still within the end line (or on the table).
What Timo and most pros do is, they start by resting their hands on the table. Then they will drag their hands behind the end-line. Only then they will toss the ball. I'm afraid it's perfectly legit.

 

[Abakus]

When the ball is on your "stationary" palm, the serve already started (not at the moment you toss the ball) and in this moment the ball have to be behind the endline. And if you drag it behind the endline before you toss, your palm wasn't "stationary", isn't it?

 

[WiWa]

I think it is more important to keep in mind why the rules are made like this. That rule propably is meant to prevent people serving from the side of the table or starting short before the net, which would create weird serves. There is nothing about Boll's serve that would give him an unfair advantage I think, also because the 'violation' of the rule is to a minimum (his hand with the ball is above the white line on the table). Therefore I don't believe this should be called as an illegal serve by umpires.

 

[JustAlt]

I don't know whether to cry or laugh, sorry. That's just plain pilkunnussimista. :/

 

[azlan]

When the ball is on your "stationary" palm, the serve already started (not at the moment you toss the ball) and in this moment the ball have to be behind the endline. And if you drag it behind the endline before you toss, your palm wasn't "stationary", isn't it?

Technically, you are just getting ready to start your serve. The serve starts a few miliseconds before you toss the ball, where you need to show the ball....

 

[YosuaYosan]

I think it is more important to keep in mind why the rules are made like this. That rule propably is meant to prevent people serving from the side of the table or starting short before the net, which would create weird serves. There is nothing about Boll's serve that would give him an unfair advantage I think, also because the 'violation' of the rule is to a minimum (his hand with the ball is above the white line on the table). Therefore I don't believe this should be called as an illegal serve by umpires.

Excellent reply there brah.
Yeah we should see the real intention behind the rules. We re no robots

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I think it is more important to keep in mind why the rules are made like this. That rule propably is meant to prevent people serving from the side of the table or starting short before the net, which would create weird serves. There is nothing about Boll's serve that would give him an unfair advantage I think, also because the 'violation' of the rule is to a minimum (his hand with the ball is above the white line on the table). Therefore I don't believe this should be called as an illegal serve by umpires.

I am going to agree with this as a general statement. And I doubt that Timo is doing anything that would give him an unfair advantage on his serve.

What Timo and most pros do is, they start by resting their hands on the table. Then they will drag their hands behind the end-line. Only then they will toss the ball. I'm afraid it's perfectly legit.

But if you look at what Timo is doing, at 45 seconds in the video, it is clear that Timo's toss starts from over the table. When his hand starts moving up for the toss, it is still over the table and so is the ball. He does not pull his hand back before he starts to toss. And if, when the ball comes out of his hand, which happens higher than the picture frame, it is behind the end line, then that is also against the rules because it means he is throwing the ball back instead of up. And with that rule you can say that everybody's serve is illegal because almost every pro throws the ball back a little on most of their tosses. But it looks like his arm goes mostly up and that the ball would still be a little bit over the table when it leaves his hand. You just cannot see where that happens.


But I also notice that the way he cups his hand makes it so I am not so sure the opponent can see the ball before he tosses it. It is hard to tell but it looks like the base of his thumb and his thumb are blocking the view.

So, from a Technical standpoint, Abakus is correct. The serve is not legal.

However, I agree with Wiwa, Timo is not doing anything that gives him an unfair advantage so it is sort of okay what he is doing.

My understanding of the over the table thing is that, if you are over the table you can get crazy angles on the serve that you would never be able to get from behind the line.

One time I was in this bar with people who do not know how to play and this guy who said he was a gym teacher was trying to tell me that it was illegal to serve so that the ball went off the side of the table instead of going past the end line. When he went to demonstrate. I told him his serve was illegal for two reasons. 1) He did not toss the ball, he threw it at his racket. 2) He initiated contact with the ball half way to the net so he could get a bigger angle off the side of the table near the net. But that where the ball left the table had nothing to do with whether the serve was legal or not. The other two issues were the problem.

If you could serve from over the table it would give you the ability to create a bigger angle. To get an angle like that from behind the end line you have to stand wider, which is legal but then it is obvious where the ball is going.

So, Timo could clean up what he is doing and there would be nothing wrong with that and it would not make his serves any different. But what Timo is doing should not cause the ref to act in any way since it is not actually creating a problem.

But I did see a ref call Jun Mizutani for the exact same thing in a tournament. So Jun just moved back two inches.

 

[azlan]

But if you look at what Timo is doing, at 45 seconds in the video, it is clear that Timo's toss starts from over the table. When his hand starts moving up for the toss, it is still over the table and so is the ball. He does not pull his hand back before he starts to toss

If the toss starts from over the table, it is definitely illegal. I didn't scrutinize Timo's serve, because I thought he should know better. Tossing into the body is illegal though some pros get away with it. Like Carl said, serving on top of the table is illegal. If it's not, I'll be serving from 2 inches away from the net, at an angle!! hahahha

 

[dici]

Looks like it just very fortunate that the umpire did not realize the palm position while Timo Boll toss the ball. But yea, I don't think any pro need to take that kind of advantage in any game

Ok, next, we need to put some more detail pictures on these serves. And make the thread surpass Xu Xin's illegal server.

 

[Der_Echte]

Carl, was the Umpire an American I know?

 

[Lachy]

I think it is too hard to judge from this footage, because his serve is over in a flash. I have slow motion footage of Boll serving and he holds the ball behind the table for every serve, it looks pefrectly legal to me. I would upload the video but for some reason I can't.

 

[Dan]

I think it is too hard to judge from this footage, because his serve is over in a flash. I have slow motion footage of Boll serving and he holds the ball behind the table for every serve, it looks pefrectly legal to me. I would upload the video but for some reason I can't.

Hey Lachy

Welcome to the site

Cool i would like to see this footage. Have you tried uploading the footage to youtube?

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S2 using tapatalk

 

[blahness]

Timo Boll probably gets less of an advantage on his serves compared to everyone else. Even Maze earns a lot more points on 3rd ball attacks than him. His serves, along with Samsonov's are probably the most legal in the game. I wish he could bend the rules more to give him that extra advantage! and finally get himself a medal on the next Olympics and WTTC, which he totally deserves.

 

[Lachy]

Hi Dan, thanks. I haven't tried uploading it to youtube yet, but I will.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Carl, was the Umpire an American I know?

Do you mean the umpire who called Jun Mizutani on a serve? I cannot remember what tournament that was. It was either last winter or in 2010, but I cannot remember the tournament. I just remember Jun was not happy but he took care of the problem.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I think it is too hard to judge from this footage, because his serve is over in a flash. I have slow motion footage of Boll serving and he holds the ball behind the table for every serve, it looks pefrectly legal to me. I would upload the video but for some reason I can't.

If you look at any of these times listed by Abakus you can see without a doubt:

"have a look at 0:45, 1:00, 2:35, 5:44 and 6:32"

They give a clear view right from the side straight at him holding the ball and his hand and the ball and part of his racket are over the table. All you really need is the first one though. Have a look and pause it while he is holding the ball before he throws. I paused it several times within the 45th second and you can see that his hand, the ball and part of his blade are over the table as he sets himself to toss. It is a perfect angle to see it from. Within that 45th second his hand goes straight up and is still over the table when his hand go over the top of the picture frame.

There might be other footage from other tournaments where he is not doing it. But every time they give a side angle as Timo is about to serve, his hand is over the table. It is not completely but almost. At 45 seconds, more than half his hand is over the table, more than three quarters of his hand is over the table. Only a small part of his pinky and ring finger are past the end line. And that is because of the angle of his hand. The whole ball is over the table. Just pause it and have a look.

Again, I don't think this matters. I agree with Wiwa and think that the reason for the rule should be looked at. Timo is not doing this to get an unfair advantage. He might not do this as a normal thing. But in this match they definitely have footage of him doing it every time the camera gets that side view of his serve.

At 6:32 the camera angle switches to the view from behind Baum before the toss and from there it also looks like Baum might not be able to see the ball when Timo "presents" it because of the angle he has his and at so that his wrist and the base of his thumb are blocking the view of the ball. Baum might be able to see it but it looks like he cannot since the camera angle is higher than he is and the camera cannot see the ball.

 

[Lachy]

Here's the video, not the best angle but I think you'll be able to see the ball behind the table. It's the same for all his serves in this match.

 

[Lachy]

Yeah you're right Carl, I didn't watch it carefully enough the first time. I suppose it's too hard for the judges to see though.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Here's the video, not the best angle but I think you'll be able to see the ball behind the table. It's the same for all his serves in this match.

This one too, you can see from the shadow, most of his hand is over the table. It is almost the same positioning as the one in the match with Baum. I still don't think it matters. And here you can see the ball, but you can also tell by the shadows in this slow motion video that most of his hand is over the table. His arm is clearly over the table and so is most of his hand. And in this one, as he is starting the motion his hand moves closer to the net before he starts moving it up for the toss.