Troublemaking at the 2017 US Open

[pgpg]

Ok, so would you be able to name one city and estimate how many players are there? Just to have an idea.

To put things into perspective: US population is around 330M people and we have ~10K registered TT players - the ones who bothered to pay annual USATT fee or play in a sanctioned tournament. You can probably double or triple that to get total number of people in club-level TT, plus many more (exact number unknown) folks who occasionally like to hit a few balls in their basement while having a beer.

Where I live, Boston metro area (within I-495 or may be 45 min drive time) there are ~5M people and we have 2 full time TT clubs, and 4-5 smaller places where people can play 2-3 times a week. Our club leagues on Monday/Tuesday draw around 40 people on any given week who are obviously somewhat interested in regular competition - I would say we have ~200 players in the area to draw from, of different skill (500 - 2650 USATT) and commitment level.

 

[pgpg]

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The places where you would expect leagues right now are NY, DC and CA (Silicon Valley, not LA per se). But even in those cases, like NY and DC, some of the player density is driven by neighboring states and commuters.

Sure, it's more like NY/NJ/CT and DC/VA/MD, same in Boston - we draw players from MA/NH/RI.

 

[Der_Echte]

The Sacramento tt scene for decades had the same 50 to 75 players hopping night to night to play 2 hrs in a rented out school gym and play rated round robin group.

It was and is kinda like a situation where there are 5 to seven trees and all the birds in one... then they all get the urge to fly together to next tree... You get the idea.

James T runs a Monday Friday deal and JZ runs a tues Sun and another day... auburn runs a couple times a week in a rec center room.

The new full time daily Chinese club runs we'd rr...

So... all the players already have wander lust to club hop and play 're league for local ratings points, none of it connected to USATT leagues.

Format is similar to England... Table one group has the 5 best players, table 2 the next best 5, etc... winner of table moves up a group next time.



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[Der_Echte]

So having said all that... there is enough player base here to run some real team's league if certain rules would prevent team's from forming dominant teams... like say top 3 players no higher than 5600 or whatever.

There is enough player base to do team vs team in a real league with team reg fee and real championship real prize money at end of season...

Surprised no one organized this yet.

I keep hearing rumors a Vietnamese player will open a 20 table club real soon in Sac... such a club could do this and a lot of other stuff at same time.

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[Der_Echte]

In San Jose, the swan ping pong club just recently ran its annual team season... 50 teams... and it coulda been more. Ask ttmonster.

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[JST]

I wish someone from Poland would correct me if I'm wrong, but I never heard about the TTR ...

There are other countries close to PL which have ELO based ranking system (which is used as part of official Top100 ranking at the end of each year but not the only one source because of people playing whole year abroad), see Czech's https://www.elost.cz . You can then compare players who are playing Polish top leagues with Czech premier and first divisions (e.g. Miroslav Horejsi plays very well in PL last year and is ranked ~2300 in Czech ELOST). And because many Czech players are in German lower leagues you can traverse and compare further, maybe you can even arrive to some comparison of CZ/GER/PL and USATT... or you can take it just by number of leagues steps down from premier (e.g. in CZ you have down to 14 leagues in some regions, lowest having players average ELO 900~1200). Assuming similar drops down in PL you can compare what your ranking would be in CZ...

 

[thomas.pong]

America has more sprawl than Europe, that is the biggest problem with team leagues. IT's hard to schedule the travel since most of it is driving and over long distances. If that could be fixed, I suspect team leagues would be more popular.

You're absolutely right. It's a bit different in California as there are a bit more clubs than other areas of the country, but even then it's not that many and they vary in size, structure and purpose.

I guess university clubs are the only ones to have that kind of travel capability and with the help of the NCTTA system.

 

[thomas.pong]

You probably need to elaborate who actually pays for this (facility, training, insurance, coaching, competition..), since in my experience someone has to in the end. If it's a subsidy from government or some other sponsor, then it's all great, but it's not something that can happen magically in the US, for a variety of reasons.

Absolutely!

As far as who pays, how much and for what exactly, I can only speak for France vs. the US.
Many European countries have a TT system that resembles more or less the same model at least sportively in terms of federations, leagues and levels, and financially at least partially depending on economics, infrastructures and importance put on the sport.

My club membership in So Cal is $35 a month = $420 a year, or $350 if you pay for the whole year upfront.
USATT membership is $75 a year in order to play in tournaments.
Tournaments are $50 to $100+ each to play 2 events (minimum 7-10 competitive matches).
Lessons are $35 to $75 per hour.

Club membership in France per year is around $95 for kids, $110 for teenagers, and $145 for adults and includes FFTT membership, team practices and coaching, open play, home or away sanctioned team competition every weekend (14 times a year x 4 single matches = 56 competitive single matches + 28 doubles), free team jersey, and sports injury insurance.
You can also play in 4 individual sanctioned competitions for a one-time yearly fee of $16 for kids, $19 for teenagers, $37 for adults for another minimum of 24 singles matches.

So if comparing 2 adults who are members of a club and play a minimum 80 sanctioned single matches a year, the cost in the US is $825 to $1,500 (without coaching) whereas in France it is $182 including team structure, practices, coaching, insurance and doubles.

If your household makes below a certain income, the French government will pay part or the totality of your membership. The club gets most of its money from the local government and sponsorships, then from the memberships.

 

[pgpg]

Absolutely!

As far as who pays, how much and for what exactly, I can only speak for France vs. the US.
Many European countries have a TT system that resembles more or less the same model at least sportively in terms of federations, leagues and levels, and financially at least partially depending on economics, infrastructures and importance put on the sport.

My club membership in So Cal is $35 a month = $420 a year, or $350 is you pay for the whole year upfront.
USATT membership is $75 a year in order to play in tournaments.
Tournaments are $50 to $100+ each to play 2 events (minimum 7-10 competitive matches).
Lessons are $35 to $75 per hour.

Club membership in France per year is around $95 for kids, $110 for teenagers, and $145 for adults and includes FFTT membership, team practices and coaching, open play, home or away sanctioned team competition every weekend (14 times a year x 4 single matches = 56 competitive single matches + 28 doubles), free team jersey, and sports injury insurance.
You can also play in 4 individual sanctioned competitions for a one-time yearly fee of $16 for kids, $19 for teenagers, $37 for adults for another minimum of 24 singles matches.

So, given that TT fees in France are at least 5X lower (even before I include coaching), what is behind the difference? Much lower costs (salaries, rents etc.) or most of it is paid by government, local or otherwise? Or is it because there are many more paying members and thus it's possible to spread costs around due to larger volume? Inquiring minds want to know...

P.S. Your SoCal club fees seem to be lower than mine, but I am lucky to have good health insurance that pays 100% of my TT club fees, so there!

P.P.S. I see you added extra info on financing details - sounds like support from government is pretty important here...

 

[thomas.pong]

So, given that TT fees in France are at least 5X lower (even before I include coaching), what is behind the difference? Much lower costs (salaries, rents etc.) or most of it is paid by government, local or otherwise? Or is it because there are many more paying members and thus it's possible to spread costs around due to larger volume? Inquiring minds want to know...

P.S. Your SoCal club fees seem to be lower than mine, but I am lucky to have good health insurance that pays 100% of my TT club fees, so there!

Well, I'd say that the difference resides in several things. The quality of the league and team structure and constant competition (harder to skip a league match or practice! Lot at stake lol), from the youth up, from amateurs to pros, promotions and relegations, all in favor of the clubs, their teams and each player, driving the level of play up and up. The lower costs too, making the sport, structure and competition accessible to all (thus having a lot of youth and talent), due to its public (not private) nature funded mostly by taxes. Almost every city and village has a club or forms a club with neighboring towns and have 100-150 members minimum (of those 150 only 25 compete in leagues) for the smallest of clubs. Socialism and many members spread the cost around.

Hope this answer your questions . If not, ask away!

That's amazing that your health insurance pays for all of your club fees!!! Well done! I'd want to know more if I was staying in the US... I think my SoCal club fees are lower because Asian clubs are generally more reasonable, modest and mostly want to cover rent and overhead costs.

 

[thomas.pong]

P.P.S. I see you added extra info on financing details - sounds like support from government is pretty important here...

Indeed!

Another thing I've noted in France/Europe that I attribute to the league and teams structure is how casual and easy people seem to play yet how skilled the average player is. They have the support of their team and club, so they seem less pressured and more naturally competitive because of how many sanctioned matches they play each year with their team and club having their back and the camaraderie and travel, level promotions and relegations, shared ups and downs...

 

[chuckjordan2]

And back to the topic of the 2017 US Open, my assumption is playing there will set a player back $750 with travel, auto rental, hotel, food (and Las Vegas is cheaper with flights, hotel, and definitely food).

I know friends that played in the 2017 North American Joola tournament and that set them back an average of $1200. Each person. Team=$800 (divide by 4 players or $200@), hotel $250 @ night (4 nights), food, and miscellaneous. This was held in the Washington DC area (which is expensive).

If you happen to live in DC, then the expenses are reduced.

If my rating were higher, I wouldn't mind spending the dollars to play the above tournaments. I currently play smaller tournaments in my state (Virginia). I am considering playing in the 2018 Cary Cup (in North Carolina).

 

[thomas.pong]

And back to the topic of the 2017 US Open, my assumption is playing there will set a player back $750 with travel, auto rental, hotel, food (and Las Vegas is cheaper with flights, hotel, and definitely food).

I know friends that played in the 2017 North American Joola tournament and that set them back an average of $1200. Each person. Team=$800 (divide by 4 players or $200@), hotel $250 @ night (4 nights), food, and miscellaneous. This was held in the Washington DC area (which is expensive).

If you happen to live in DC, then the expenses are reduced.

If my rating were higher, I wouldn't mind spending the dollars to play the above tournaments. I currently play smaller tournaments in my state (Virginia). I am considering playing in the 2018 Cary Cup (in North Carolina).

The Cary Cup seems like a great tourment. They can definitely get really expensive. I think if you can afford them, they can be fun regardless of your level or the events you enter, plus a great way to connect with other people who share your passion. Plus watching the Open Singles and high level players is fun in itself and a learning experience. I've fairly enjoyed playing alongside and watching professional players at the larger Joola/Butterfly LA Opens I attended, even while playing some of the lower events.

 

[jawien]

Where I live, Boston metro area (within I-495 or may be 45 min drive time) there are ~5M people and we have 2 full time TT clubs, and 4-5 smaller places where people can play 2-3 times a week. Our club leagues on Monday/Tuesday draw around 40 people on any given week who are obviously somewhat interested in regular competition - I would say we have ~200 players in the area to draw from, of different skill (500 - 2650 USATT) and commitment level.

Ok ... so to compare Lesser Poland (Małopolska) Voivodeship which is like 120 by 150 km area. About 3.4M population.
Just calculated from our league system we have 104 different teams.
There are teams playing in women first league and men 1st to 6th (women can play with men of course).


Now these are my estimates but if every club has 3 different teams on average, in different leagues, then there must be about 35 different clubs. 3-4 people playing in a team so like 300 to 400 league players. Now important thing is that lots of these clubs are like middle or high school based. Often young kids and older ones are playing for the teams.

In Cracow alone, there would be 4-5 places to play, maybe not a full time. One big club among them with a semi "pro" players - basically high school students practicing like twice a day.
[Edit, sorry google was hinting the club's original homepage might be hacked ... so I removed it from here]
The club and tt section has grants from the City and Voivodeship based on the players results in the national tournaments + own hotel and restaurant. Still we have to fight for tt because it is relatively expensive sport, consumes good portion of a budget and is not as popular as Soccer ...

Considering what Der wrote about Sacramento and neighboring places ... you guys should have a really good chance to create a league.

I'll try to respond to other posts but man ... to spend 1200$ to participate in a tournament ... seems quite a money.

 

[Der_Echte]

That $1200 might be a bare minimum at some tourneys.

Even a local tourney can be easily over $100 USD before food/hydration.

TT tourneys in USA are not cheep in cost.

 

[jawien]

There are other countries close to PL which have ELO based ranking system (which is used as part of official Top100 ranking at the end of each year but not the only one source because of people playing whole year abroad), see Czech's https://www.elost.cz . You can then compare players who are playing Polish top leagues with Czech premier and first divisions (e.g. Miroslav Horejsi plays very well in PL last year and is ranked ~2300 in Czech ELOST). .

Oh sure, I've seen Miroslav live not too long ago, playing in the league. He is still in form. They actually are in the same team with Lucjan Błaszczyk (he participated in some events in the US. You may find his match against Zhang Yining on yt - he lost ... ; )

Who organizes those events where you can earn your points for ELOST? Are they planned in advance, structured?

That $1200 might be a bare minimum at some tourneys.
Even a local tourney can be easily over $100 USD before food/hydration.
TT tourneys in USA are not cheep in cost.

Yeah, when you consider travel and hotel expenses, times number of days ...
Actually hypothetically if I was to go to one of those national Grand Prixs, lets say held just recently about 500km away in Gdańsk, 3 days. Gas ~400 zl, hotel 300, food 150, entry fee 75 (I would have to qualify in my region). Overall 925 zl, less than 300$. If I would probably go with like two friends than gas 130/per person - overall ~650 zl - less than 200$.

Now consider league expenses. 14 teams, home - visitors so like 7 games away, average distance 50 km makes 700km to travel ~80$. No hotel and less food. Of course an elephant here would be who pays for the sport hall? Currently we have it for free.

But talking about league I understand the differences and obstacles in the US, considering distances, dispersion of players ... What helps here is that many middle/high schools have tt sections. So they have the "infrastructure" ready. This might be missing in the US I guess.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

America has more sprawl than Europe, that is the biggest problem with team leagues. IT's hard to schedule the travel since most of it is driving and over long distances. If that could be fixed, I suspect team leagues would be more popular.

China is bigger
other than super league, the league system is run over 2 x 1 full week period in a central venue
I guess this is similar to your teams event - different thing is to have a 2 times a year.

This 2 times a year league week makes it better from a training perspective - as it is difficult to train and play tournament in the same time (same week etc)

 

[pgpg]

And back to the topic of the 2017 US Open, my assumption is playing there will set a player back $750 with travel, auto rental, hotel, food (and Las Vegas is cheaper with flights, hotel, and definitely food).

I know friends that played in the 2017 North American Joola tournament and that set them back an average of $1200. Each person. Team=$800 (divide by 4 players or $200@), hotel $250 @ night (4 nights), food, and miscellaneous. This was held in the Washington DC area (which is expensive).

If you happen to live in DC, then the expenses are reduced.

If my rating were higher, I wouldn't mind spending the dollars to play the above tournaments. I currently play smaller tournaments in my state (Virginia). I am considering playing in the 2018 Cary Cup (in North Carolina).

I don't know, Teams can be cheaper than US Open, especially for someone on the East Coast:

* Travel: may be 50$ if you are driving to the Teams and share a ride (almost everyone from Boston drove, never mind 8 hour trip); 250 $ flight to DC - compare to ~300 plane ticket to Vegas.

* Hotel: 180 per day at Teams, plenty of players shared the room, so 270$ for 3 days. US Open is more like 80$ per day, but you are there for a week, so almost the same.

* Fees: 150$ in a 4-person team, if you don't register at the last moment (~550$ year in advance). Almost 300$ for US Open if you register for max number events.

* Food/drink etc. - 6 days will be more expensive than 3...

In the end these are not that different, you are still looking at non-trivial expense of 600$+. But, well, hobby...

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

In Australia, the clubs are big
Take a club in say Melbourne that I went to, with about 300-400 members
They have inter club leagues - which happens every week

Then there is those tournaments in the city/state, then other city/state which will require traveling

I'm not sure if US has inter club tournaments too, but one thing about having one is to have enough members to make it happen.

I guess for a city to make a league, one only need to have say 6 teams of 3 players min to start (of the same level)
Social league can be a start - it doesn't even need to be run by any administrators

In Cape Town, the local league has 10 teams, so with home and away, once a week - that is 18 weeks of table tennis - over 20~22 weeks. Imo this is silly as it take 5 months to finish a league (it is very taxing if covers such a long period)

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

That $1200 might be a bare minimum at some tourneys.

Even a local tourney can be easily over $100 USD before food/hydration.

TT tourneys in USA are not cheep in cost.

I guess if it can be seen as a party/festival, then it makes these expenditures slightly better