Troublemaking at the 2017 US Open

[jawien]

Looking back on the thread... it has sure caused a lot of trouble. Conclusion - Mission Success.

The pic aroused out of Der_Echte roaming the US Open hall looking for trouble... and quickly spotted it - MaTT standing near the control desk talking to a longtime Polish Pro TT player - LB. I had a quick chat, asked MaTT to take a selfie and post it to TTD later when time available... suggested to add the word Trouble to the title...

This thread has went from random trouble making selfie taking to serious discussion on the direction of the sport.

You make trouble with a serious crowd and this is what you get. This random picture taking might be an inspiration for generations to came and learn how little it takes to cause it ...

Have you exchanged any troublesome words with LB? He likes it and makes it interesting as getting beating from this funny ZY in the windy Town ... : )

I'm still watching closely the readout ... ; )

 

[JST]

Lets assume you are assigned to a certain club. Club has several teams playing in different league levels, say team A (2nd league), team B - 3rd and team C 4th.
Now I can be assigned to all of them, but if I play 3 matches i.e. in team B, then I can't play in team C (which is a lower league). I can still play in team A which is a higher league ...

In CZ it works that you need to submit list with 4 top ranked players in A team, next 4 in B team etc. Then you can add any player from lower team to the list of higher league. And finally you can play the match with any people you have on team's list. So tricks like having one great guy filling the A but never playing so allowing 4th guy from A being the first in B and play two leagues or trading foreign or unregistered (= several years out of the league) players and list them in teams which are in lower leagues are happening... Once you are on the list for given season you can play wherever you want and how many matches you want.

 

[jawien]

In CZ it works that you need to submit list with 4 top ranked players in A team, next 4 in B team etc. Then you can add any player from lower team to the list of higher league. And finally you can play the match with any people you have on team's list. So tricks like having one great guy filling the A but never playing so allowing 4th guy from A being the first in B and play two leagues or trading foreign or unregistered (= several years out of the league) players and list them in teams which are in lower leagues are happening... Once you are on the list for given season you can play wherever you want and how many matches you want.

Seriously ... : )

But these 4 "top" players from each team can not mix in different leagues right? What if I add random 4 people to each team and those serious guys on "additional" list in every team too? Won't I have a "one band" to rule them all? : )

I thought the rule prevents one big club from jeopardizing the progress of teams from lower leagues ans smaller clubs. Even though I play in a relatively big club, I must say I would agree with it.

Btw. Happy New Year Guys! Thanks for sharing your ping pong life experiences ...

 

[JST]

But these 4 "top" players from each team can not mix in different leagues right? What if I add random 4 people to each team and those serious guys on "additional" list in every team too? Won't I have a "one band" to rule them all? : )

Once you are listed in "base" of certain team in your club you cannot be added to the list of lower leagues, that's logical. However if you get good "unrated" player or simply several new good guys to the team you can end up with having some lower league teams "boosted" with one or more better players. They can help you to advance for next season but in next season they already have ranking so they should be in the team they belong to.

All the best in 2018 to whole TTD!

 

[jawien]

Once you are listed in "base" of certain team in your club you cannot be added to the list of lower leagues, that's logical. However if you get good "unrated" player or simply several new good guys to the team you can end up with having some lower league teams "boosted" with one or more better players. They can help you to advance for next season but in next season they already have ranking so they should be in the team they belong to.

All the best in 2018 to whole TTD!

Ok so i.e. you have 10 ranked players (player 1 - 1500pts, pl 2 - 1499pts, .. pl 10 - 1491 pts) and 4 unrated ones.

You also have 2 teams A and B (lower league). How do you make the trick?

 

[pgpg]

In CZ it works that you need to submit list with 4 top ranked players in A team, next 4 in B team etc. Then you can add any player from lower team to the list of higher league. And finally you can play the match with any people you have on team's list. So tricks like having one great guy filling the A but never playing so allowing 4th guy from A being the first in B and play two leagues or trading foreign or unregistered (= several years out of the league) players and list them in teams which are in lower leagues are happening... Once you are on the list for given season you can play wherever you want and how many matches you want.

This tells me that league system is not perfect (well none are...) and does have room for shenanigans. I remember Der_Echte's stories about what's going on in Korean divisions: ringers galore!

As a dumb question - if you have a league system in place together with promotion/relegation rules, why do you even need rating system like ELOST? Just to be able to tell that Player A is 'better' than Player B?

 

[NextLevel]

This tells me that league system is not perfect (well none are...) and does have room for shenanigans. I remember Der_Echte's stories about what's going on in Korean divisions: ringers galore!

As a dumb question - if you have a league system in place together with promotion/relegation rules, why do you even need rating system like ELOST? Just to be able to tell that Player A is 'better' than Player B?

It's just more accurate. Gives you another tool for promoting and denoting players etc. Or balancing our league teams the way ratings are used to seed players here.

 

[JST]

It's just more accurate. Gives you another tool for promoting and denoting players etc. Or balancing our league teams the way ratings are used to seed players here.

Yes, basically it's for these who like to track their progress (or are obsessed about individual stats) in larger scale then their XYZ league with Joes from the other village

 

[JST]

Ok so i.e. you have 10 ranked players (player 1 - 1500pts, pl 2 - 1499pts, .. pl 10 - 1491 pts) and 4 unrated ones.
You also have 2 teams A and B (lower league). How do you make the trick?

Let me tell you the trick my team did this year:
1) I wasn't playing for 15 years so I was unrated player. It was pretty much evident that I'm slightly better then the whole club so it would be "right" to put me on the top of the list (= the best player in Team A allowed to play only in that team). However they put me to the bottom and I'm listed in all three teams (playing three different regional league levels). So while I play all matches in Team A I also can play key matches in lower leagues so teams B and C have better chance to win the whole season and advance.
2) We have one guy who don't play TT whole season (cannot make the schedule with his new job). He was "the best" in the whole club so he is written as number one in Team A but don't play single match. So again we have one more good guy who plays regularly in Team A but can play in Team B if we need because is "5th in the ranking" and so is on the list for lower league.

It would be more fair if the listing would be cross-checked against some intermediate results (e.g. if someone would say after few matches that I belong to Team A as best player and should not play anything in lower leagues). However you can imagine how this rule would be problematic (e.g. what if first X matches we would be playing X worst teams so my stats would be great but not significantly better then league average if you wait till mid-season?) So the ranking and listing is done for whole season and if you get lucky or have some little money to attract some "better" player from nearby you can set good team for given season. But that's everywhere in the sport: if rich club buys best players around the world (because they are pros) it will win the league (most probably) and you can see this pattern here and there down to the lowest leagues of every sport (e.g. because local rich guy plays in the club and wants to advance so he sponsors the thing.

 

[thomas.pong]

Looking back on the thread... it has sure caused a lot of trouble. Conclusion - Mission Success.

The pic aroused out of Der_Echte roaming the US Open hall looking for trouble... and quickly spotted it - MaTT standing near the control desk talking to a longtime Polish Pro TT player - LB. I had a quick chat, asked MaTT to take a selfie and post it to TTD later when time available... suggested to add the word Trouble to the title...

This thread has went from random trouble making selfie taking to serious discussion on the direction of the sport.

I'M not complaining, morph it on.

Haha, trouble indeed, but good trouble!

I feel like I caused more trouble by starting to praise the Euro league system and the need for sanctioned leagues in the US, while also praising the US tourny system and the need of such tournaments in Europe. Great trouble/contributions from everyone from the US, Poland, CZ... thus far!

 

[thomas.pong]

Not limited to TT, I am sure - having well-off parents with resources to spare sure helps in any sport, especially the 'expensive' ones, where you need $$ to afford coaches, equipment, travel to competition etc. Very popular sports like soccer, basketball, baseball etc. will have talent scouting system, which means it's probably easier for true talent to get discovered and get support through farm teams etc.(I think...).

And if you replace 'private TT coach' with 'private prep school', then it's something else altogether, many more people spend serious $$$ on this, for obvious reasons.

This is more of a US thing, where sports and financial involvement often go hand in hand and most everything is private. I think this is where the clubs and league system funded by taxes helps give everyone a more equal chance at developing in the sport and nurture talent from various classes.

 

[thomas.pong]

Let me tell you the trick my team did this year:
1) I wasn't playing for 15 years so I was unrated player. It was pretty much evident that I'm slightly better then the whole club so it would be "right" to put me on the top of the list (= the best player in Team A allowed to play only in that team). However they put me to the bottom and I'm listed in all three teams (playing three different regional league levels). So while I play all matches in Team A I also can play key matches in lower leagues so teams B and C have better chance to win the whole season and advance.
2) We have one guy who don't play TT whole season (cannot make the schedule with his new job). He was "the best" in the whole club so he is written as number one in Team A but don't play single match. So again we have one more good guy who plays regularly in Team A but can play in Team B if we need because is "5th in the ranking" and so is on the list for lower league.

It would be more fair if the listing would be cross-checked against some intermediate results (e.g. if someone would say after few matches that I belong to Team A as best player and should not play anything in lower leagues). However you can imagine how this rule would be problematic (e.g. what if first X matches we would be playing X worst teams so my stats would be great but not significantly better then league average if you wait till mid-season?) So the ranking and listing is done for whole season and if you get lucky or have some little money to attract some "better" player from nearby you can set good team for given season. But that's everywhere in the sport: if rich club buys best players around the world (because they are pros) it will win the league (most probably) and you can see this pattern here and there down to the lowest leagues of every sport (e.g. because local rich guy plays in the club and wants to advance so he sponsors the thing.

Yes in France too, the clubs come before their teams, and some players can sometime play for at least 2 of the club's teams to get better results for the club at the different division levels, although I think it is more regulated than CZ, but I'll have to find out more as I may have to play for 2-3 teams myself.

My main team assignment might either be the C team, or top player of the D team. If I'm in the D team, I might sometime help out the C or B team, if they have someone missing because of injury or can't make it... If I'm in the C team, I know I can help the B and higher, not sure yet if I can also help D to get better results on some weekends, in order for that team to get promoted or not relegated. One thing I know for sure is that each weekend, I can only play for one of the teams, and there might be a limitation of how many times I can play for another level than my main assignment per season.

 

[JST]

One thing I know for sure is that each weekend, I can only play for one of the teams, and there might be a limitation of how many times I can play for another level than my main assignment per season.

There might be the difference: higher leagues have weekend matches and also delegated referees but lower leagues not and "local" (district/regional = up to 30km of travel) leagues are played on week days (evenings) regularly. In addition both teams can agree on shifting the match up to 2 weeks back and forth (and in the lowest leagues you can do even wilder things) and I believe that in higher leagues it can be done as well if both teams agrees well in advance and let the governing body and delegated referee know in written form. So in lower leagues it's common to play 10~20% of matches out of original schedule and many of these shifts are because of some key player missing in the team (and gentlemen agreement says that you accept this as opponent - if possible - because you don't know when the same happens to your team). And yes, some of these shifts are because some teams need one guy to play two team matches the same week. Not sure if this has analogy in FR/GER/PL?

 

[thomas.pong]

There might be the difference: higher leagues have weekend matches and also delegated referees but lower leagues not and "local" (district/regional = up to 30km of travel) leagues are played on week days (evenings) regularly. In addition both teams can agree on shifting the match up to 2 weeks back and forth (and in the lowest leagues you can do even wilder things) and I believe that in higher leagues it can be done as well if both teams agrees well in advance and let the governing body and delegated referee know in written form. So in lower leagues it's common to play 10~20% of matches out of original schedule and many of these shifts are because of some key player missing in the team (and gentlemen agreement says that you accept this as opponent - if possible - because you don't know when the same happens to your team). And yes, some of these shifts are because some teams need one guy to play two team matches the same week. Not sure if this has analogy in FR/GER/PL?

Wow, a lot of leeway it seems. In France, we can only play for one team (A, B, C, D...) per match day.

 

[JST]

Wow, a lot of leeway it seems. In France, we can only play for one team (A, B, C, D...) per match day.

It might be the same in top 5 leagues in CZ as well, that was never my level The point is that there are no official "all leagues play in one day" system here so you can easily play in the same round (= week) for several teams (in different leagues) and still not play the same day.

 

[thomas.pong]

It might be the same in top 5 leagues in CZ as well, that was never my level The point is that there are no official "all leagues play in one day" system here so you can easily play in the same round (= week) for several teams (in different leagues) and still not play the same day.

Got you. Yea, some teams play on Saturdays in France, some on Sundays. But you can only play for one team per round.

 

[lugi2000]

Trouble is in town ! ! !

 

[jawien]

Let me tell you the trick my team did this year[...]

Trouble is in town ! ! !

Hello fellow Troublemakers, welcome Everybody in 2018!! I hope you had a good time.
Just a few glasses of beer with friends in the town - one can ask for no more ...

I read once Zhang Jike saying that "loosing is the path to winning" and I also remember Timo Boll thanking his opponents who "made him so strong". So I guess we are on the right path here. Trying to figure out the best ways to create those opportunities for the likes of ZJK or Timo to be able to "loose" or enable the opponent to make them stronger - seems like an interesting direction to go ... ; )

Let me regroup for a while and I'll have more specific questions ; )

 

[jawien]

[...]
As a dumb question - if you have a league system in place together with promotion/relegation rules, why do you even need rating system like ELOST? Just to be able to tell that Player A is 'better' than Player B?

Btw, how often do you participate in your tournaments? How often would an average aficionado participate, in your opinion?

 

[pgpg]

Btw, how often do you participate in your tournaments? How often would an average aficionado participate, in your opinion?

I played 8 sanctioned tournaments in 2017 (the ones that count for USATT rating) and 2-3 unsanctioned ones. That was more or less typical year for me, but I suspect most of my club mates play a bit less.

Also, I play in our weekly club league, so that's ~40 sessions ( can't attend them all because of holidays, vacations, travel etc.) , with average 5 matches per session. This counts towards league rating (also maintained by USATT) but is separate from the 'real' tournament one. Oh, league is also free for club members. So, plenty of competitive matches.