Troublemaking at the 2017 US Open

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I don't know, Teams can be cheaper than US Open, especially for someone on the East Coast:

* Travel: may be 50$ if you are driving to the Teams and share a ride (almost everyone from Boston drove, never mind 8 hour trip); 250 $ flight to DC - compare to ~300 plane ticket to Vegas.

* Hotel: 180 per day at Teams, plenty of players shared the room, so 270$ for 3 days. US Open is more like 80$ per day, but you are there for a week, so almost the same.

* Fees: 150$ in a 4-person team, if you don't register at the last moment (~550$ year in advance). Almost 300$ for US Open if you register for max number events.

* Food/drink etc. - 6 days will be more expensive than 3...

In the end these are not that different, you are still looking at non-trivial expense of 600$+. But, well, hobby...

You can also share hotel rooms in Vegas or go with family who can do other things. Vegas is a gambling city so you can get really cheap flights and hotels even off the strip or on it it just depends on what your priorities and your planned experience are.

I think $600 is a reasonable cost for a good vacation if you are not staying with friends and family.
 
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In Australia, the clubs are big
Take a club in say Melbourne that I went to, with about 300-400 members [...]

In Cape Town, the local league has 10 teams, so with home and away, once a week - that is 18 weeks of table tennis - over 20~22 weeks. Imo this is silly as it take 5 months to finish a league (it is very taxing if covers such a long period)

I guess guys it is quite hard to translate our experiences. What fits us the most depends how specific region is populated and what are the traditions.
Cracow is not too big comparably and surrounding area is populated more evenly I'd say so there are tt centers in the surrounding smaller cities and villages.

Boston I-495 is highly industrialized (San Francisco, Sacramento), in Australia - Melbourne you have those big centers of 400 people.

What seem natural to us, is not in other regions (league season lasting for almost a year, while Tony considers 5 moths as silly).
 
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JST

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Who organizes those events where you can earn your points for ELOST? Are they planned in advance, structured?

CZ system is basically only league based. There are few irregular events (typically around Christmas and in Jan/Feb) with individual competitions but these aren't part of the ELOST. Actually the only official and open individual tournaments in CZ (except ITTF Tour) are regional and national championship (top 50 from January ranking + ~70 qualifiers from 14 regions) but even these (for reasons unknown to me;) are not accounted to ELOST at this moment. So what remains are two league systems: one is hierarchical with 4 national leagues, 3-4 in every region + 1-6 in every district, all together around 300 "leagues" with 8-14 participating teams + around 20+ women only "leagues" (women indeed compete in regional and district leagues as well) + under 18/15/12 regional leagues (but young also play regular individual tournaments which actually might be part of ELOST, not sure about that). Second is "national cup" which is normally knock-out from the lowest level with several seed levels (based on the league your team plays).

In adult competitions the system is (except the highest level which plays with international best of 7 matches system) best of 18 matches (2 doubles + 4*4 singles in teams which are typically 4 players each) while "cup" is played in best of 10 matches (1 double + 3*3 singles in team with typically 3 players each).

To sum-up you typically play home/out match with each team in the leagues which makes 40-90 matches per player and year (leagues are only October till March/April), up to 200 matches a year if you are freak which travels with two or three teams whole season + plays "cup".
 
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What seem natural to us, is not in other regions (league season lasting for almost a year, while Tony considers 5 moths as silly).

wow, how does your 1 year long league work?
how many teams, and how many matches

I do not know of any professional sport with leagues so long...
 
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wow, how does your 1 year long league work?
how many teams, and how many matches

I do not know of any professional sport with leagues so long...

Leagues are usually conducted on a yearly basis, are they not? Ours starts ok ... end of September and lasts till end of May ... 8 moths at least.
14 teams, 2 rounds. Ok actually 1,5 round because after the first one the league is divided onto two groups.
 
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[...] So what remains are two league systems: one is hierarchical with 4 national leagues, 3-4 in every region + 1-6 in every district, all together around 300 "leagues" with 8-14 participating teams + around 20+ women only "leagues" (women indeed compete in regional and district leagues as well)

Thanks, but you need to explain me a bit more about the league system, because I got confused - it's probably terminology.
Like you northern neighbor : ) has

One Superleague - whole country
Two 1st divisions - north and south
About 8-10 2nd divisions in different "combined" districts.
Probably 16 3rd divisions One in each district.
Some districts has more lower divisions 4, 5, 6th ...

But the league system is only one ... central, with different divisions : )
 
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JST

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Thanks, but you need to explain me a bit more about the league system, because I got confused - it's probably terminology.

1 extraliga (nation wide, 10 teams)
1 1st league (nation wide, 13 teams)
2 2nd leagues (east/west, 12 teams each)
5 3rd leagues (artificial regions to minimize distances, 12 teams each)
14 "regional" divisions (in each official region of CZ, 12 teams each)
etc. (as I said it's up to 14 levels in some regions while somewhere it ends at 7).

all together 298 league competitions just for mixed/men without age limit.

So it's basically the same as in PL or GER, the same as most of European football leagues' systems etc. The "cup" is then chance for any lower ranked team to "challenge" top teams, the same principle as any national cup in football (e.g. FA Cup in England). And of course it's extremely difficult for team lower then 3rd national league to pass through first knock-out stage without seeding to anything like final 16. But you have the chance;) If you go to that ELOST page the system is pretty nicely visible there, it's just about little bit of PL/CZ or google translate treatment.
 
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So it's basically the same as in PL or GER

Thanks. It's the US Open topic so just really quick : )

Would you explain how is it possible that everybody plays in his own league and yet ranking is general - for every league ... ? We chatted a little about such problem in the US - turns out to be a minor one because there are national events that re-calibrate the system.
 

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Would you explain how is it possible that everybody plays in his own league and yet ranking is general - for every league ... ? We chatted a little about such problem in the US - turns out to be a minor one because there are national events that re-calibrate the system.

ELO system works if people from regions and leagues of different level meet. More often they meet better calibration is. In CZ it's simply by fact that many people (such as me;) play in several leagues so top/down calibration works pretty well. Cross regional might be a little problem but because of 4 nation-wide levels even that works. In most regions system works for 5+ years so ELO should be pretty accurate now. It's kind of a question which system calibrates better: "USATT like" with mostly individual tournaments spread across the country where calibrations is done only thanks to people traveling longer distance (do price money exist there? if not the motivation of challenging people far away and pay $500+ for the trip is questionable from my point of view) or "hierarchical leagues" where most of the people meet just their neighbors but very frequently and few people spread the information among regions by playing district/state or state/national level during the same season (btw. even the fact that each year 8-10 new people come to the league with 2 advancing teams from the league bellow and another 8-10 new people descending with 2 teams from upper level spread the ELO comparison over the years pretty well).

Probably enough about USATT and European ELO based rankings in this thread?
 
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Leagues are usually conducted on a yearly basis, are they not? Ours starts ok ... end of September and lasts till end of May ... 8 moths at least.
14 teams, 2 rounds. Ok actually 1,5 round because after the first one the league is divided onto two groups.

Okay, that means your league is not 1 year
it is 8 months
If it is 12 months, then you don't get off season, and I thought you were refering to a 12 month league....

8 month is still very long

how many match night will the team play? 1.5 round is how many match nights
 
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ELO system works if people from regions and leagues of different level meet. More often they meet better calibration is. In CZ it's simply by fact that many people (such as me;) play in several leagues so top/down calibration works pretty well. Cross regional might be a little problem but because of 4 nation-wide levels even that works. In most regions system works for 5+ years so ELO should be pretty accurate now. It's kind of a question which system calibrates better: "USATT like" with mostly individual tournaments spread across the country where calibrations is done only thanks to people traveling longer distance (do price money exist there? if not the motivation of challenging people far away and pay $500+ for the trip is questionable from my point of view) or "hierarchical leagues" where most of the people meet just their neighbors but very frequently and few people spread the information among regions by playing district/state or state/national level during the same season (btw. even the fact that each year 8-10 new people come to the league with 2 advancing teams from the league bellow and another 8-10 new people descending with 2 teams from upper level spread the ELO comparison over the years pretty well).

Probably enough about USATT and European ELO based rankings in this thread?

Prize money exists in most large tournaments, but it is either a) concentrated in the Open division, or b) even if offered in lower events is usually not enough to cover the costs of participation. So, I think it's a fair statement that most people (especially lower rated ones) attend these events NOT because of the money.

Why do they go there? Great question, perhaps deserving its own thread. Speaking for myself - I enjoy playing TT, it's my hobby, and I view trips to US Open/Teams etc. as a very nice vacation. Some people like going to the beach, hike the trails, visit new countries etc., I like playing lots of TT, preferably in a reasonably interesting place. Probably would go to a TT camp as well, same thing. Tournaments provide a measuring stick of your progress (rating is a good indicator of your level, not perfect, but easy to track) and it is natural for people to try to get better.

You obviously also have up and coming juniors, for whom it's a great opportunity to validate their training, gain experience etc. Coaches and semi-professional TT folks presumably play to maintain their level/reputation and they actually have legitimate shot at some prize money. Pretty sure they are competitive by nature as well. :)

Hope it explains it somewhat - bulk of players at these events are not pros, just TT enthusiasts. Most can afford it, and 1K/week is not that much, as far as vacations go (IMHO, of course, plus don't forget that incomes in the US are somewhat higher too).
 
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Hope it explains it somewhat - bulk of players at these events are not pros, just TT enthusiasts. Most can afford it, and 1K/week is not that much, as far as vacations go (IMHO, of course, plus don't forget that incomes in the US are somewhat higher too).

At the end, I think most enthusiasts who work, can afford it for sure
Otherwise, it is some kid with rich folks or folks trying they best to provide for the kid (not so rich folks)

I have noticed a trend that a lot of top world class juniors have rich parents.
I also know some players that hires a private coach/training partner (out of parents budget) for USD3000 a month, excluding accommodation/meals etc I would say total cost is around USD5000 a month. Now how much does the parents need to earn to cover these kinds of expenses? crazy
 
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At the end, I think most enthusiasts who work, can afford it for sure
Otherwise, it is some kid with rich folks or folks trying they best to provide for the kid (not so rich folks)

I have noticed a trend that a lot of top world class juniors have rich parents.
I also know some players that hires a private coach/training partner (out of parents budget) for USD3000 a month, excluding accommodation/meals etc I would say total cost is around USD5000 a month. Now how much does the parents need to earn to cover these kinds of expenses? crazy

Not limited to TT, I am sure - having well-off parents with resources to spare sure helps in any sport, especially the 'expensive' ones, where you need $$ to afford coaches, equipment, travel to competition etc. Very popular sports like soccer, basketball, baseball etc. will have talent scouting system, which means it's probably easier for true talent to get discovered and get support through farm teams etc.(I think...).

And if you replace 'private TT coach' with 'private prep school', then it's something else altogether, many more people spend serious $$$ on this, for obvious reasons.
 
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Looking back on the thread... it has sure caused a lot of trouble. Conclusion - Mission Success.

The pic aroused out of Der_Echte roaming the US Open hall looking for trouble... and quickly spotted it - MaTT standing near the control desk talking to a longtime Polish Pro TT player - LB. I had a quick chat, asked MaTT to take a selfie and post it to TTD later when time available... suggested to add the word Trouble to the title...

This thread has went from random trouble making selfie taking to serious discussion on the direction of the sport.

I'M not complaining, morph it on.
 
Lesson learned: at a tourney, take a selfie with Der_Echte and post on TTD.

Next (at same tourney) make the children cry (beating them) and grown men smash their rackets (beating them too).

Mission accomplished, time to go home.

Did I miss anything?
 
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One may save quite some money at the teams if using airbnb instead of the hotel. There were reasonable deals in Alexandria which is a short uber/bus ride away from the spot.

There are many cheap hotels in Alexandria as well, but the hotel was a great option this year if you shared with someone or just wanted to enjoy your vacation. But it all depends on your stage in life as well, people like pgpg are at a slightly different stage from me who is at a slightly different stage from you who would be at a slightly different stage from a junior. But the differences between someone like you and pgpg or me and the junior are significant.
 
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ELO system works if people from regions and leagues of different level meet. More often they meet better calibration is. In CZ it's simply by fact that many people (such as me;) play in several leagues so top/down calibration works pretty well. [...]

Answers my question perfektní - thanks :)

There might be a little trouble : ) in our league system, because there is a specific rule.

Lets assume you are assigned to a certain club. Club has several teams playing in different league levels, say team A (2nd league), team B - 3rd and team C 4th.
Now I can be assigned to all of them, but if I play 3 matches i.e. in team B, then I can't play in team C (which is a lower league). I can still play in team A which is a higher league ...
 
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